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Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Shaocaholica posted:

Wait wait wait what if you're inverted and you need to peepee or poopoo?
See well-known science documentary Red Dwarf's episode 'Backwards' (I'm pretty sure Nolan must have).

https://youtu.be/36xSrKhCojw

I said a while back that thanks to Time Radiation, an inverted fart would be as lethal as an inverted bullet if someone was unlucky enough to smell it.

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Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Like if you need to go way into the past to do a thing like they did on that ship they would have had to eat and poop multiple times.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007




SuperMechagodzilla posted:

If catching an ďinvertedĒ bullet in a ďnormalĒ gun causes the gun (and everything causally related to it) to also invert, then - taking things to a logical conclusion - anyone with an awareness of inversion can invert just about anything they want by merely ďthinking backwardslyĒ.

Sure. This is how the protagonist ends up as the head of the time cops. "I realized I wasn't working for you. We've both been working for me."


"How can it move before I touch it?"

It is both true that the bullet leaps into his hand because he wills it to, and that it was always going to leap into his hand because the future is as predetermined as the past. The Tenet heroes will a victory into existence by submitting themselves entirely to the inevitable force of history. "What's happened, happened. It's an expression of faith in the mechanics of the world. It's not an excuse for doing nothing."

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


The movie is hard to understand because inverted causality is simply not something the human mind can easily deal with.

Here's the "inverted bullet" scene, where the cool scientist tells Protagonist how things work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MflGVbhI-s

Couple of things I want to point out here:

1) The gun isn't inverted nor does it need to be. The firing pin will move forward and strike the primer no matter which way you "run the tape". It's the same way with fighting an inverted person - their punches and grabs are still imparting a force on the object they're interacting with even if things are reversed. Interestingly enough there's a paradox here: if you (a regular person) were fighting an inverted person, and from their point of view they threw an extremely hard punch into your chest but withdrew their arm veerrry slowly, what you would see as a non-inverted person is a guy punching at you veerry slowly and making contact an imparting a little tap, then quickly bringing their arm back to neutral. But from their point of view they absolutely crushed you with that punch and then slowly withdrew their arm. I'm not sure how the movie solves this paradox; there's a scene in the movie where the Protagonist is fighting the Inverted Man and is thrown away by a force that doesn't seem to originate from anywhere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWa0EGPgHrs#t=63s/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDYIFFwg0M#t=63s) and you can see the confusion on his face.
2) The part where Protagonist holds his had over the inverted bullet and nothing happens before being told "you have to have dropped it" and then repeating the motion only this time making a pretend "drop it" motion, which causes the bullet to fly in his hand, is a key scene because it reveals that everything is pre-destined. Even though afterwards they talk about free will, it's a lie (and in fact the Protagonist and Neil have literally become Time Cultists by the end of the movie spouting off "whatever happened already happened."). You can see this also when the Protagonist first exits the Inversion chamber to get in his car and stop Sator; there's a muddy puddle on the ground that starts to ripple and deform a full few seconds before the Protagonist puts his foot in it. And yet, he puts his foot in it, surprised. What this means is that if you're inverted and you see some of your own footprints on the ground in front of you, that is by necessity where you are going to step. You cannot see the puddle start to ripple and say "ok well I'm not going to put my foot there, ha ha!" - then there's nothing to make the puddle ripple, so it wouldn't ripple, so you would have never thought that. Tenet is the Block Universe: The Movie. Everything is already done and decided and you can play it forward or backward like the scientist with her tape deck but it's totally deterministic.
3) The End is the Beginning is a big theme in the movie and repeats over and over. There are multiple sequences and multiple shots in the film where you can see the very same people that were going out of the scene running into it, or vice versa. The implication of the film is that the very first scene at the Opera House is simultaneously the very first and very last operation that Tenet is ever responsible for.
4) The movie has a couple of paradoxes in it even if you take everything in good faith and face value.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 30, 2021

Lampsacus
Oct 21, 2008



I feel self conscious about liking this film so much when its fans are all nolan 2deep4u fanbros but meh. I like twisty stories, i like time travel stories and i like puzzle box stories. If anything, Tenet reminds me of a graphical adventure game with the way the characters interact with key objects. It would make a rue interactive fiction text adventure game now that i think of it. But one of my favourite things about its world is how the entire tenet organization is both invisible to the rest of us muggles and will eventually fold in on itself, disappearing without accolade. This is something bitter and quiet.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




gregday posted:

Just based on reading r/tenet, there are a shocking number of people who wildly get wrong the most basic facts about what is happening in this movie. Whether you pin that on Nolan is up to you, but Iíve seen so many explainers that are just incorrect.

Yeah I wanna say someone posted a reddit diagram in here to explain the car stuff and it was flat out wrong.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


So if youíre inverted and have a daily driver eventually the gas tank is going to get so full you have to go to a gas station to extract all the fuel.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Shaocaholica posted:

So if youíre inverted and have a daily driver eventually the gas tank is going to get so full you have to go to a gas station to extract all the fuel.

No, if the car is inverted then what an inverted person sitting in it would see is a normal drive where the fuel gauge goes down as normal. Please note that, like the inverted oxygen that the inverted characters have to breathe, inverted cars need inverted gasoline. So they go to the inverted gas station to get their fuel. Everything looks normal to them as they drive into the past without a care in the world.

If you were a regular person watching an inverted car drive around, it would be quite odd. You would see it driving backwards, sucking in carbon monoxide and turning it into gasoline. As the car drove backwards the fuel tank would continue to fill up, until it drove into an inverted gas station and unloaded that fuel into the station's underground gas tank. It would then drive away backwards again, sucking carbon monoxide out of the atmosphere and turning it into gas.

Now you're saying "Well MMJS what's stopping me from uninverting that underground gas tank to make it plain old gasoline and putting it in my plain old car, thus technically using the same molecule of fuel twice in two different reactions" and the answer is: nothing. Except you're breaking causality, causing a paradox, and possibly ending the entire universe.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Shaocaholica posted:

So if youíre inverted and have a daily driver eventually the gas tank is going to get so full you have to go to a gas station to extract all the fuel.

If its a normal car you're just driving it backwards. If its an inverted car then you just fill it up with gas as normal it just empties in reverse. The only question is if you'd have to use inverted gas or not.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Any chemical reactions have to involve molecules of the same inversion, or they don't work.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Any chemical reactions have to involve molecules of the same inversion, or they don't work.

Yeah but the air molecules / carbon monoxide molecules wouldn't be inverted.

But beyond that, the *particles* all would (potentially be), inverted gas, inverted air, inverted monoxide, but that could still react together inside a non-inverted combustion chamber, right?

Or the other way around, an inverted combustion chamber with non-inverted gas, non-inverted air, etc.?

I think in theory it could work? But you'd probably need to adjust the timing of the camshaft and the gearing of the transmission to be reversed...

gregday
May 23, 2003


So, the Protagonist stopping Satorís inverted SUV by pressing his hand on the brake. Thatís a legit plot hole right? The SUV us to have been inverted, since it unbroke the BMWís mirror. But then from its perspective, how did it get started moving? It began moving down the highway when the protagonist took his hand off the brake?

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ok hear me out. What if you send your own peepee and poopoo through a turnstile. But just the excrement. Youíre still normal. Is it like bullets?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


gregday posted:

So, the Protagonist stopping Satorís inverted SUV by pressing his hand on the brake. Thatís a legit plot hole right? The SUV us to have been inverted, since it unbroke the BMWís mirror. But then from its perspective, how did it get started moving? It began moving down the highway when the protagonist took his hand off the brake?

Yes, this is one of the movie's legit plotholes. He should have hit the accelerator. From the inverted car's perspective, it's sitting at the end of the road where the gunfight takes place, then the Protagonist hits the accelerator, and it starts careening down the road with Kat inside. Then the Protagonist reverses back into his regular car. Which of course means that the Protagonist is both the problem and the solution.

I am pretty sure they just hand-waved it and had him hit the brake because otherwise it would be wildly confusing.

Shaocaholica posted:

Ok hear me out. What if you send your own peepee and poopoo through a turnstile. But just the excrement. Youíre still normal. Is it like bullets?

I'm going to take this seriously: in the blue room would be a crusty pile of poo poo that gradually got fresher and stinkier until you walked up and put your regular poo poo through the red side. Then it would disappear.

edit: I was laughing when I wrote that, just FYI. Somebody needs to make a Tenet Poop Experiments Youtube video

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 02:01 on May 1, 2021

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




I'd love Nolan to explain why the Algorithm being buried is an instant game over. I'm one of those weirdos that very much enjoyed the movie but that makes no sense.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Wouldnít blue poop turn back into food? But the extracted nutrients and energy are still on the red side...

E: oh wait nm Iím dumb

Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 02:16 on May 1, 2021

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Groovelord Neato posted:

I'd love Nolan to explain why the Algorithm being buried is an instant game over. I'm one of those weirdos that very much enjoyed the movie but that makes no sense.

As someone who really loves the film, the Algorithm being a physical thing makes no sense.

The person who invented it in the future "hiding it in the past' makes no sense.

However, you can somewhat resolve that by getting into what SuperMechagodzilla and I were talking about a second ago. The actual plot of Tenet is almost a contrived red herring that doesn't really matter? At the end of the day all that really matters is that the protagonist decides to believe in time and make Tenet end by sacrificing himself, and he does that because he did it, and he did it because he does it.

Everything else, the whole conflict, is basically inconsequential to that ultimate truth. There may not actually be an "algorithm" at all but more just the concept of it, a sort of Roko's Basilisk of time.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




I can do suspension of disbelief of it being some physical object for the sake of story but burying being an automatic fail condition only works in the other direction.

gregday
May 23, 2003


Groovelord Neato posted:

I'd love Nolan to explain why the Algorithm being buried is an instant game over. I'm one of those weirdos that very much enjoyed the movie but that makes no sense.

It does seem to me that as soon as Tenet (the organization) knew where it would be buried, thatís doom for Satorís plan. Why wouldnt they be able to just dig it up any time before the future evil people do?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


gregday posted:

It does seem to me that as soon as Tenet (the organization) knew where it would be buried, thatís doom for Satorís plan. Why wouldnt they be able to just dig it up any time before the future evil people do?

IIRC it's down some 5 mile borehole or whatever, sealed by a nuke. I don't think presently we have the tech to get to it. It's a legit hanging thread though.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Ok if figured it out. Before that whole army of inverted soldiers gets on that big ship to go to the final fight they need to bring with them a whole lot of inverted food and water. So from the POV of a normal person the peepee and poopoo goes back into the inverted crew. Or conversely they go through the turnstile on regular intervals to eat and drink on regular intervals instead of consuming inverting food and drink.

gregday
May 23, 2003


People who read my posts in BSS may know I make and collect replica movie props. Despite this filmís issues, I really do think the central plot device is tremendous fun. So hereís what Iíve got:







Red room / blue room shot:

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


gregday posted:

So, the Protagonist stopping Satorís inverted SUV by pressing his hand on the brake. Thatís a legit plot hole right? The SUV us to have been inverted, since it unbroke the BMWís mirror. But then from its perspective, how did it get started moving? It began moving down the highway when the protagonist took his hand off the brake?

As gone over earlier, there isnít any actual distinction between inverted and uninverted objects. Parts of the SUV may be going forward in time while other parts are going backwards. Itís the same as asking how the mirror broke, or how an inverted bullet can be fired from a normal gun.

The best we can say is that the SUV is inverted while Sator and his driver are in control of it (while thinking backwardsly), and then it ceases to be inverted when Protag is in control.

We see the same with the silver car. It seems to start out normal, but then crashes invertedly. Sator subsequently (un)burns the (possibly now inverted?) gasoline with his inverted lighter, creating normal fire that freezes the still-inverted car / Protag.

SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:04 on May 1, 2021

gregday
May 23, 2003


The silver car started out inverted. Thatís why when the protagonist gets in and begins driving the dust the tires kick is going backwards. Thereís a segment on the DVD BTS footage that explains how they did this effect to show the Saab was inverted the entire time.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


They also never show a machine big enough to fit a car unless they are doing it piecemeal and inverting a bunch of mechanics to put it back together.

RCarr
Dec 24, 2007



gregday posted:

People who read my posts in BSS may know I make and collect replica movie props. Despite this filmís issues, I really do think the central plot device is tremendous fun. So hereís what Iíve got:







Red room / blue room shot:


This is really cool. Did you make all these?

gregday
May 23, 2003


Shaocaholica posted:

They also never show a machine big enough to fit a car unless they are doing it piecemeal and inverting a bunch of mechanics to put it back together.

The Tallinn turnstile is big enough to fit a car. You even see a car under a sheet in the blue room.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


gregday posted:

The silver car started out inverted. Thatís why when the protagonist gets in and begins driving the dust the tires kick is going backwards. Thereís a segment on the DVD BTS footage that explains how they did this effect to show the Saab was inverted the entire time.

If the dust is going backwards from an inverted perspective, then itís just going forwards. Protag is driving a normal car in reverse.

An inverted car seen from an inverted perspective would just appear normal, which ironically wouldnít have required a special effect.

gregday
May 23, 2003


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

If the dust is going backwards from an inverted perspective, then itís just going forwards. Protag is driving a normal car in reverse.

An inverted car seen from an inverted perspective would just appear normal, which ironically wouldnít have required a special effect.

I donít know why you think a normal car can just become inverted mid scene for the backwards crash. This movie has paradoxical plot holes but that ainít one of them.

gregday
May 23, 2003


RCarr posted:

This is really cool. Did you make all these?

The backpack talisman is made from the correct original source materials: a 1943 British India 1 Pice coin on some sacred Hindu thread called Mauli Kalawa.

The inverted air tank I assembled from the correct oxygen mask and a modified avalanche safety airbag canister. Iím
Not 100% sure thatís what production made it from but itís very close. The holster strap I made.

The Algorithm section was designed by someone on CGTrader. I had a machine shop carve the model using a 5lb chunk of solid aluminum. The result is heavy but very satisfying to hold.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


gregday posted:

I donít know why you think a normal car can just become inverted mid scene for the backwards crash. This movie has paradoxical plot holes but that ainít one of them.

It happens all the time in the movie, as with the normal gun that briefly becomes inverted while interacting with an inverted bullet.

A clearer (and stranger) example is the stab wound on Protagís arm being uninverted and going forwards in time normally even though the rest of him is inverted.

The easiest way to explain it is that the level of invertedness in an object is determined by the will of the individuals. If youíve seen Zack Snyderís Justice League, everybody in Tenet has roughly the same bullshit time powers as The Flash, minus the super-speed.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


gregday posted:

The backpack talisman is made from the correct original source materials: a 1943 British India 1 Pice coin on some sacred Hindu thread called Mauli Kalawa.

The inverted air tank I assembled from the correct oxygen mask and a modified avalanche safety airbag canister. Iím
Not 100% sure thatís what production made it from but itís very close. The holster strap I made.

The Algorithm section was designed by someone on CGTrader. I had a machine shop carve the model using a 5lb chunk of solid aluminum. The result is heavy but very satisfying to hold.

Lol thatís awesome. You should have gone full balls and contracted the algorithm piece out of stainless.

gregday
May 23, 2003


I love how things like the ďwinds of entropyĒ and Neil not being absolutely certain about changing the past w/r/t the grandfather paradox and multiple realities gives the story an unsettling vibe. As with Inception it seems Nolan likes sci-fi stories involving ordinary people getting their hands on forbidden/future technology they do not fully understand and definitely should not be loving around with. The ambiguity creates this really uneasy atmosphere and opens the door for different audience interpretations.

Grandpa Palpatine
Dec 13, 2019






gregday posted:

I don’t know why you think a normal car can just become inverted mid scene for the backwards crash. This movie has paradoxical plot holes but that ain’t one of them.

As always, it's best to just ignore SMG. He exists to make connections that aren't really there and to wear down your spirit in CD threads.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Grandpa Palpatine posted:

As always, it's best to just ignore SMG. He exists to make connections that aren't really there and to wear down your spirit in CD threads.

If I were wrong, then things like Protag hitting the brake wouldnít work.

We have some very obvious examples of things being uninverted in the middle of the scene, like the bullet holes in the window. Nolan even provides a big Ďol close-up of the window behaving incorrectly.

They handwave this with the ďwinds of entropyĒ stuff, but examining what that actually means reveals that the filmís scenario is much weirder than any of the exposition says. And half of the exposition is lies anyways.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


I can't deny that as somebody who watched this film 3 times and then watched a bunch of Youtube explainers, it's just a fact that there are logical inconsistencies in the movie.

Like, for instance, an inverted person stabbed with a normal lockpick gets a normal wound (i.e. their wound occurs before the actual stabbing from their POV). However later in the movie an inverted guy is literally shot through the brain with a regular bullet and he doesn't appear to be suffering any effects of having a fuckin' hole in his head right before it happens!

So you either explain these as "inconsistencies" or you give them the explanation, as SMG does, that stuff just randomly behaves inverted or not throughout the movie.

I really like Tenet but it's just a fact that it doesn't (and perhaps couldn't) follow its own rules consistently. I really like the movie but this is extremely fair criticism of it. It's a clockwork timepiece that occasionally shudders and gives you the wrong time, but at least to me nobody has every attempted to make such a wack rear end premise work. I appreciate the design even if the gears seize up sometimes.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Yeah, it *mostly* works and is really fun and cool but ultimately doesn't really totally go all the way to working.

RCarr
Dec 24, 2007



Trying to figure out this movie is like an exercise in futility. It just makes absolutely no sense, and the more you look into it the stupider it gets.

I wish I could say the visuals make up for it, But the lazy slow motion fight scene and the special backwards soldiers shooting at nothing arenít very entertaining.

The High Point of the movie is probably a guy getting trapped in the building as it un-explodes.

God drat this movie is stupid.

RCarr fucked around with this message at 04:02 on May 2, 2021

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I really like Tenet but it's just a fact that it doesn't (and perhaps couldn't) follow its own rules consistently. I really like the movie but this is extremely fair criticism of it. It's a clockwork timepiece that occasionally shudders and gives you the wrong time, but at least to me nobody has every attempted to make such a wack rear end premise work. I appreciate the design even if the gears seize up sometimes.

Concluding that it's just flawed is a bit too easy of an 'out', though. The actual trick is to understand what is going on.

At certain points, things like inverted bullets would have had to spontaneously materialize - but this is not exactly a 'plot hole' because it closely matches the functioning of the "turnstiles". From certain perspectives, objects entering them also seem to appear or disappear.

So we once again have little need for the turnstiles, except for creating duplicates: if people can invert any object purely by thinking backwardsly, they can also cancel that effect by having priorly thought forwardsly. In doing so, this can (and seemingly does) cause objects to appear "out of thin air".

In the inverted bullet demonstration, the bullet does not exist in the wall at the beginning because Protag doesn't yet understand that it will have existed. From the perspective of the bullet, though, it's just bouncing back to the future it was in. Similar weirdness surrounds literally every interaction between inverted and uninverted things. I don't think you could even say people are hitting eachother, because it's more like they're warping time around eachother.

The reason this is stupid is not that there are 'errors' but that it makes it pretty much impossible to track characters' thought processes. That's sort of an issue when the movie's entirely about strategies.

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Pulcinella
Feb 15, 2019


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I can't deny that as somebody who watched this film 3 times and then watched a bunch of Youtube explainers, it's just a fact that there are logical inconsistencies in the movie.

Like, for instance, an inverted person stabbed with a normal lockpick gets a normal wound (i.e. their wound occurs before the actual stabbing from their POV). However later in the movie an inverted guy is literally shot through the brain with a regular bullet and he doesn't appear to be suffering any effects of having a fuckin' hole in his head right before it happens!

So you either explain these as "inconsistencies" or you give them the explanation, as SMG does, that stuff just randomly behaves inverted or not throughout the movie.

I really like Tenet but it's just a fact that it doesn't (and perhaps couldn't) follow its own rules consistently. I really like the movie but this is extremely fair criticism of it. It's a clockwork timepiece that occasionally shudders and gives you the wrong time, but at least to me nobody has every attempted to make such a wack rear end premise work. I appreciate the design even if the gears seize up sometimes.

Yeah it really only makes sense if the characters ability to reverse entropy is at least some what magical. Like when the technician is explaining the inverted bullets it seems magical in that, as long as you give the bullet a plausible past, like moving your hand as an if you were dropping it, it will magically float into your hand but you could have just as easily have done the reverse pushing gesture the technician does instead. Both are plausible enough the inverted bullet will basically ďsnapĒ to that reality.

It gets weird with the stab wound because we see a character just spontaneously start bleeding before having their wound healed by being stabbed. With the bullet itís less weird because itís not a character and we donít see it from itís point of view.

It gets even weirder and pure magic when the two states interact. Actually I guess itís less weird because itís the only way it makes sense. Why would anyone install a glass window with what looks like bullet holes? Why arenít people weirded out about bodies spontaneously in-decomposing, lying on the ground for weeks at a time, before a bullet flies out of their head? The characters are making a whole mess of assumptions and the universe seems to be doing itís best to just clean up their mistakes afterwards.

Also everyone puts in a lot of work when they could just spend that effort into preventing climate change.

Edit: Itís easier to imagine messy time travel movies and backwards bullets than it is to imagine the end of capitalism.

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