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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


gregday posted:

I think I broke my brain thinking about the Blue team member that gets sealed up inside the wall at Stalsk-12.

So from his perspective, he’s trapped inside the wall. But from the red (forward) perspective, they exploded a wall and a guy emerges inverted and returns backwards to the blue helicopters. So in the winds of entropy, is this guy hosed or does he get out OK?

This created a new paradoxical question: if inverted people never revert, then from the forward perspective, where do they “come from”? That’s probably a question that arises from linear thinking and as the movie suggests I should just not think about it.

They come from a turnstile. If a normal person observed an inverted person (who never went back to normal) they would see them dead, then rise to life, then they would live their life in reverse until they walked back into the turnstile they originally used to invert. At the same time their "regular" self would have been living their life simultaneously and they would do so normally until they entered the turnstile. At this point both versions of the person would "vanish" and that would be that. The turnstyle would effectively be the end of their "future".

If nobody saved that guy then there's a corpse in the wall that (from a normal perspective) slowly get fresher, until a rocket hits the wall and a living dude pops out of it and walks backwards into his blue shipping crate and flies away.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:15 on May 6, 2021

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Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

pospysyl posted:

Here's the issue: what if Present Sator closes the box and opens it a minute later. Logically, there should be a gold bar there; in the inverted timeline Sator hasn't taken it out yet. Can Sator get unlimited gold in this way?

So David Lewis writes this about the grandfather paradox in four-dimensionalism. All the pieces of the paradox are "compossible," which means they're all things you can do (within our time travelling world). However, killing your own grandfather would create a paradox and is therefore logically impossible. This means that any attempt to kill one's own grandfather would have to be stopped by coincidence, like slipping on a banana peel.

So Sator returning to the time-post spot again and again is compossible. But he simply doesn't.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

If the film were playing fair, you would have an army of inverted skeletons. Tenet people could place them in strategic locations to undecompose and 'spring back to life' when needed.

Unfortunately, the film uses "winds of entropy" to say that the corpses just pop in/out of existence offscreen.

There is nothing fair about an army of inverted skeletons.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


By the way just for interest's sake there's a classic SF story that SORT of plays by Tenet's rules by Ian Watson called the Very Slow Time Machine, I would be surprised if Nolan hadn't read it at some point. It won some awards IIRC and it's interesting, although thematically very far away from Tenet. It does feature people becoming Time Cultists but in a very different way.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Zaphod42 posted:

Except, here's where it gets weird.

What if Past Sator opens box. Sees no gold. Then closes box. Then sends email. Then future sends gold backwards. Then Present Sator opens box, sees gold. He then TAKES THE GOLD OUT. This then means the gold is no longer sitting in the box, so Past Sator sees no gold.

I think that actually works?

Nope, because Sator cannot take any gold out of the box. He can only put gold into the box.

gregday posted:

I think there’s a few tiers of sensemaking in Tenet

Almost everything makes sense, if you accept that both inversion and uninversion are ‘contagious’ in ways that may as well be random. Like, just knowing about invertedness causes parts of Protag’s mind to invert.

What does not work at all are the instances of teleportation.

When the SUV “unhits” the car’s mirror, a chunk of glass flies up from the road and attaches itself. The logic is that the glass of the mirror ‘caught’ the invertedness of the SUV. But how did that particular chunk of glass end up on the road there if it initially, spontaneously, fell off miles away from that point? The mirror (and its components) may be going backwards in time, but it’s still moving forwards in space.

gregday
May 23, 2003


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

By the way just for interest's sake there's a classic SF story that SORT of plays by Tenet's rules by Ian Watson called the Very Slow Time Machine, I would be surprised if Nolan hadn't read it at some point. It won some awards IIRC and it's interesting, although thematically very far away from Tenet. It does feature people becoming Time Cultists but in a very different way.

I have a feeling Tenet is mostly because Nolan saw Primer and thought what if they could leave the boxes while traveling backwards, and also James Bond.

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gregday
May 23, 2003


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Nope, because Sator cannot take any gold out of the box. He can only put gold into the box.


Almost everything makes sense, if you accept that both inversion and uninversion are ‘contagious’ in ways that may as well be random. Like, just knowing about invertedness causes parts of Protag’s mind to invert.

What does not work at all are the instances of teleportation.

When the SUV “unhits” the car’s mirror, a chunk of glass flies up from the road and attaches itself. The logic is that the glass of the mirror ‘caught’ the invertedness of the SUV. But how did that particular chunk of glass end up on the road there if it initially, spontaneously, fell off miles away from that point? The mirror (and its components) may be going backwards in time, but it’s still moving forwards in space.

I think we have to just accept that for inverted events that require things to already be there (Neil's body in the hypocenter, the gun on the floor in the Oslo turnstile, the solider in the wall at Stalsk-12...) there is a point in the forward time perspective when objects just materialize where they will need to be in order to be (un-)moved there. This is why the film shows us the bullet holes in the Oslo proving window glass expanding right as they walk into the room. Those bullet holes are about to be unshot and disappear... but first they need to exist, so the universe creates them.

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