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Jerkface posted:Nolan manages to have boringly realistic gun handling with none of the consequences, like everyone is shooting a bunch of airsoft guns. I think it sets the wrong tone.
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May 11, 2021 07:44
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Can someone point me to a YouTube video or article explaining what the gently caress I just watched? Because I could barely understand what the characters said, and the parts I understood doesn’t make sense. The whole movie seemed to move from shot to shot to shot without ever slowing down to let you process anything and the information the protagonist knows seems to jump from scene to scene. Like one scene he hears about something for the first time, and the very next second (within the same scene) he’s talking about it like he’s known about it the entire time. The last battle scene just made no sense to me at all. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 14:52 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 14:50
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Boris Galerkin posted:The last battle scene just made no sense to me at all. I was actually really enjoying the movie up until this point, it was just the right amount of head-scratchy and opaque that I was intrigued and engrossed, and pretty impressed with some of the sequences. Then that final scene happened and it was entirely incomprehensible and I almost completely checked out. The movie really fell in my esteem after that scene, Nolan overestimated his ability to pull off the trick and it didn't work.
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May 11, 2021 17:47
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The final battle wasn’t incomprehensible because of the use of inversion, but because of bad directing, framing, plotting. But mostly it was a really boring climactic scene.
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May 11, 2021 17:53
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone point me to a YouTube video or article explaining what the gently caress I just watched? https://youtu.be/t23ZEKqGHzs
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May 11, 2021 17:55
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gregday posted:The final battle wasn’t incomprehensible because of the use of inversion, but because of bad directing, framing, plotting. But mostly it was a really boring climactic scene. I dunno, I'd say it was both. Yes it was poorly plotted and directed, but those issues are amplified because of the inversion gimmick. In a normal poorly directed action scene you at least have a general idea of what's going on and who's trying to do what at any given moment, and a general sequence of events. Because of the inversion normal cause and effect aren't happening, so you have the issue of an explosion happening before a shot is fired half the time, which compounds with the already badly conceived sequence. e: it seems that it's just a fact at this point - if it wasn't already - that Nolan is just really bad at action. I can't think of a pure action sequence in any of his movies that is all that great (individual shots notwithstanding - I will still go to bat for the rotating hallway in Inception). Colonel Whitey fucked around with this message at 18:11 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 18:06
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Hand Knit posted:They would have to rebury the backwards-travelling capsule in a different location, otherwise you'd have the forwards-travelling capsule and backwards-travelling capsule occupying the same space at the times in between the shipment. This also means that every future-to-past or past-to-future shipment has to use a different area. And, if i remember correctly, we do see something like this at the abandoned nuclear site where Sator's mooks are constantly digging up new areas. I disagree because the time capsule isn’t going backwards in time, only the gold is. Like, 2021 Sator buries an empty box in 2021 Siberia and records a message somewhere with the exact location of the box. The message is recorded in history. 100 years go by and it’s now the year 2121. In the future, 2121 Antagonist reads the message and goes to the location of the box, digs it up, and of course it’s empty inside because the box has, up until then, been sitting in a secret location undisturbed for 100 years. The 2121 Antagonist inverts a bar of 2121 gold and places it into the box 100 years go by and it’s now the year 2221. BUT since the gold was inverted, from the gold’s point of view 100 years has gone by in the opposite direction so now it’s 2021 (from the POV of the gold) and 2021 Sator can open the box and there is now gold in the box. E: Come to think of it, this kinda reminds me of the series Travelers. Without spoiling it because it’s worth watching IMO, the gist is that in the future Earth is completely breaking down from climate change and humanity is going to be wiped out cause there’s no food, the air is unbreathable, etc. The future society develops a technology capable of sending a person’s consciousness back in time, but the caveat is that the time traveler‘s consciousness needs to occupy a host, and thus kills that host in the process. To avoid making too many changes (via the butterfly effect) they only target people who were going to die anyway, which they find through public records. So like say there’s a news article about John Doe who commits suicide on 10/10/2021, the time traveler’s consciousness would be sent to take over John Doe’s body on 10/10/2021 before he commits suicide. The idea is that now the Time Traveler in John Doe’s body is free to operate without worrying about affecting the future in negative ways, because in the future that the time traveler is from John Doe died on 10/10/2021 so he contributed nothing to the world after that point. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 18:12
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The problem with the gold "appearing" in the case is that in every other interaction we see, the Tenet setting operates as a "block universe" where if someone goes back they had always been back there. It is not a "time loop" or "time line" movie, there's one timeline and everything in it happened all at once. So seeing an empty case, closing the case, then opening the case to find gold violates one of the settings own rules. edit: quote:A couple of folks have pointed out that you can't just dig a crateful of inverted gold out of the ground and try and sell it. For one thing, nobody's gonna buy a gold bar that does backflips off of tables and refuses to melt when you put it in an furnace. But more importantly, the gold has to be in the ground tomorrow and the day after and the day after, every day until it's put into the ground by future people. Digging it up and walking away with it in your pocket would violate its own past history.
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May 11, 2021 18:27
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The problem with the gold "appearing" in the case is that in every other interaction we see, the Tenet setting operates as a "block universe" where if someone goes back they had always been back there. It is not a "time loop" or "time line" movie, there's one timeline and everything in it happened all at once. So seeing an empty case, closing the case, then opening the case to find gold violates one of the settings own rules. I’m still not sure I follow. Once 2021 Sator digs up the gold, he just needs to invert it again so that it starts moving forward in time. Suppose he sells the now un-inverted gold bar to some buyer in exchange for cash, that buyer then goes on to do something with the gold, such as storing it in a Scrooge McDuck vault. In 2121 presumably the Antagonists there break into said Scrooge McDuck vault and takes the gold, inverts it, and buries it into the designated safe space for it to age back until 2021 Sator digs it up… … which he then un-inverts and sells to someone who puts it into a Scrooge McDuck vault which then gets raided in 2021 and …
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May 11, 2021 18:48
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Boris Galerkin posted:I disagree because the time capsule isn’t going backwards in time, only the gold is. This is canonically NOT how TENET works. There is no "now you put the gold in the box and now it goes backwards so its there for Sator" In TENET rules there are no alternate timelines. Everything is always happening simultaneously. If someone in the future would EVER put a gold bar in the box, then its already in the box.
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May 11, 2021 19:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The problem with the gold "appearing" in the case is that in every other interaction we see, the Tenet setting operates as a "block universe" where if someone goes back they had always been back there. It is not a "time loop" or "time line" movie, there's one timeline and everything in it happened all at once. So seeing an empty case, closing the case, then opening the case to find gold violates one of the settings own rules. As I said before, there IS a solution to this. You just HAVE to collect the gold while you're inverted. If you collect the gold while inverted, you continue to take the gold with you backwards through time. You can then pass through a turnstile, returning yourself to non-inversion, and also returning the gold to non-inversion. There is no paradox in this, but the movie never even remotely suggests that Sator is inverted when collecting gold and even in fact says the opposite, so it contradicts itself.
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May 11, 2021 19:20
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Boris Galerkin posted:Once 2021 Sator digs up the gold, he just needs to invert it again so that it starts moving forward in time. Unless Sator is also inverted he can't interact with the gold, because his future is the gold's past and we know that the gold's past is sitting in the case for 100 years with nobody touching it. If Sator was inverted then he could dig up the gold (which looks like burying it to us "normal" folk) and take it to the turnstile to normalize it. What this looks like to a normal observer is that you're standing at a turnstile, it suddenly activates, and a normal Sator walks out with normal gold out of the red side and does whatever. The blue side inverted Sator walks out of the turnstile backwards and takes the gold and buries it. This actually works just fine by the rules of Tenet's causality. But under no circumstances could a regular old Sator just dig up inverted gold from the future and uninvert it because it breaks causality. When you deal with inverted objects you are dealing with the item's past even though it's your future. So if the past is defined for that object then you can't do anything to the object to break it's past. And we know that the past of the inverted gold is sitting in a case in the ground, so you can't remove it. edit: Zaphod42 I agree with you completely, I've said this. You could also just have a pair of suitcases appear out of a turnstile and "regular" Sator buries the inverted blue one and spends the red one. But there's no way the scene they show in the movie works with the rules they display in the movie. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 19:20
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Boris Galerkin posted:I’m still not sure I follow. The problem is if you collect the gold while non-inverted then you're travelling into the future, so the literal second you pick up the gold you have contradicted the gold's own past. You would be unable to ever grab the gold, because the gold "already" wasn't moving.
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May 11, 2021 19:21
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Unless Sator is also inverted he can't interact with the gold, because his future is the gold's past and we know that the gold's past is sitting in the case for 100 years with nobody touching it. We see forward Sator interact with inverted gold on the ship when the helicopter arrives with it. He un-drops it into his hand.
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May 11, 2021 19:24
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gregday posted:We see forward Sator interact with inverted gold on the ship when the helicopter arrives with it. He un-drops it into his hand. That's not quite the same situation. An object moving backwards could be inverse dropped by forward Sator. The whole problem here is the gold is originating from the future, travelling backwards through a box. If the gold's trajectory through space and time is different, that isn't an issue. That's no different than Protagonist un-dropping a bullet. Although there's still a lot of ignored logistics questions about where the bullets and gold are coming from that would have to be resolved, but in theory they *could* be resolved if you took the right steps preivously.
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May 11, 2021 19:26
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Zaphod42 posted:That's not quite the same situation. An object moving backwards could be inverse dropped by forward Sator. The whole problem here is the gold is originating from the future, travelling backwards through a box. Any time an object is inverted it’s “traveling backwards from the future”. I’m not seeing how it’s different whether it’s in a box.
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May 11, 2021 19:28
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So if I take a dump while inverted....
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May 11, 2021 19:31
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gregday posted:Any time an object is inverted it’s “traveling backwards from the future”. I’m not seeing how it’s different whether it’s in a box. Because you know its future. It had to be sitting in the box to reach the past, if you pick it up then it gets interrupted between being put in the box in the future and you seeing it in the box in the past. I suppose maybe it could be possible if whoever you sold the gold to ended up burying it in the same box... but that's insanely contrived.
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May 11, 2021 19:31
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gregday posted:Any time an object is inverted it’s “traveling backwards from the future”. I’m not seeing how it’s different whether it’s in a box. It's not that it's in a box. It's that you know it's past. Think of an inverted gold bar in an inverted timelock safe. The safe counts down 100 years, then you can open it. Except, of course, the safe will never count down. From your normal perspective the safe will only count up. You will never receive the gold. Now you're saying "ah but I got there 120 years in the past. The lock won't start counting up for 20 years. I just take the gold." Ok. So now the gold isn't in the safe in its past anymore. So there's nothing in the safe when the lock arms, so the gold couldn't be there when you took it. This is the time paradox that Zaphod and I are discussing. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 19:32
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Listen, I know you're trying to explain how it doesn't make sense, but the movie plainly tells us that Sator is getting money from the future. Therefore, that's the reality of the movie even if it breaks rules. They're not lying to the viewer. The movie hand-waves everything else away. It's just really poorly written and explained and should have gone through a lot more rewrites by people who were not Christopher Nolan.
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May 11, 2021 19:33
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Maybe my brain is completely broken at this point, but I just don’t see how inverting gold and sending it into the past in a time capsule is any different than how inverted bullets get (un)shot.
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May 11, 2021 19:35
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Literally the only thing good about Tenet is the time-gently caress stuff and the clockwork engineering they did on some of the scenes to make it work (the Inverted Man fight). If we don't have that, we really don't have anything. gregday posted:Maybe my brain is completely broken at this point, but I just don’t see how inverting gold and sending it into the past in a time capsule is any different than how inverted bullets get (un)shot. The issue is not the bullets, the issue is definitively knowing the past of an object. If you knew the inverted bullet was in the wall for 20 years you couldn't pick up the gun at year 10 and shoot it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 19:35
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gregday posted:Maybe my brain is completely broken at this point, but I just don’t see how inverting gold and sending it into the past in a time capsule is any different than how inverted bullets get (un)shot. If you were in the future and saw the bullet was sitting somewhere un-fired, and then you travelled into the past and saw the bullet was un-fired, and then travelled to any point in time in-between, You would absolutely NOT be able to shoot that bullet, no matter what you did. Right?
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May 11, 2021 19:38
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An underrated Tenet flaw is that there is absolutely no sense of place. Ostensibly, Tenet is a globetrotting adventure; P and Neil travel all across Europe and to India, but on screen every location looks exactly the same. The only way you can tell that they've actually traveled is with a hokey caption or tedious exposition. Again, this is a situation where the Nolans want to create an impression of world-spanning adventure but have not actually done the filmmaking work to bring it to life. Contrast with the Fast and the Furious and Mission Impossible series, which fully integrates local landmarks into action set pieces and local roads into street chases. Personally, I love the Cuban street race in Fate of the Furious. Inception had this problem too, but at least it had the excuse that only a couple of its locations were real, the rest being generic placeholder environments co-designed by the Architects and Robert's dreams.
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May 11, 2021 19:39
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I still don’t understand what the problem is. Maybe I need to watch the movie again but it seems like you’re just making it more confusing than it needs to be? The point is we’re all time travelers. It’s just that we’re all traveling “forward” in time. So if the clock says 14:34 right now, then after 10 minutes has elapsed it’ll be 14:44. But inverted objects go forward in time “backwards.” So for an inverted object, after 10 minutes has elapsed it’ll be 14:24. So the gold bar was inverted and buried in 2121 in the future, and then after 100 years has elapsed it is 2021 and available for Sator living in 2021 to find. He can take it out of the box and invert it again to make it travel “forward” in time. If he never takes the gold bar out then presumably it’ll eventually turn back into gold ore through some kind of magic, and then somehow magic it’s way back into a mountain somewhere. I really don’t understand why taking the gold bar out of the box would break causality.
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May 11, 2021 19:39
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Boris Galerkin posted:I really don’t understand why taking the gold bar out of the box would break causality. I know you don't, but please trust us its true. To understand, read the last few pages of the thread. Not much point repeating everything. How did the bar get there? Things moving both directions is confusing to wrap your head around. E: Okay I thought of another good thought expiriment You're in the year 2021. You have $10. At 2023, you travel back to 2022, and rob yourself of $10. You return to 2023. Do you now have $20? You can't. Time travel doesn't duplicate things. You have $10, because that's all that ever was. By taking the money away from yourself in 2022 though, it means you must have ALREADY been robbed by 2023. If in the year 2023 you still have your $10, then you CANNOT rob yourself in 2022. Its already happened, and you already didn't do it. If the gold reaches the year 2020, it means it wasn't removed in 2021. That is always true of every point in time, meaning you can't remove the gold while travelling forward in time, only if you are inverted. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 19:46 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 19:42
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Zaphod42 posted:I know you don't, but please trust us its true. To understand, read the last few pages of the thread. Not much point repeating everything. The bar got there because someone in the future put it there, and nobody in any point from that time until present day found it.
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May 11, 2021 19:46
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Boris Galerkin posted:The bar got there because someone in the future put it there, and nobody in any point from that time until present day found it. For that to be true, you can't remove the gold bar. If you remove the gold bar, someone found the gold between when it was put there and when you opened the box up to see gold. (yourself in the future)
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May 11, 2021 19:47
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Boris Galerkin posted:I still don’t understand what the problem is. Maybe I need to watch the movie again but it seems like you’re just making it more confusing than it needs to be? If Sator takes out the gold in 2021, then comes back in 2022, will he find gold in the box or not?
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May 11, 2021 19:47
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One theory I read that actually makes the motivations of future people make sense is that the device they sent back is part of a thing that would invert the earth itself which would reverse ecological collapse but would seriously gently caress things up coherence-wise so they have to erase the past to rewind the earth.
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May 11, 2021 19:48
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Boris Galerkin posted:I’m still not sure I follow. Antagonists in 2121 don't need to break into the vault to send the gold back. They can mine it and smelt it in 2121 and invert it and send it back, freshly minted. That's the birth of the bar of gold. Then it gets to 2021 and is picked up by Sator. He can melt it down or keep it as is, doesn't matter. stratdax fucked around with this message at 21:55 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 19:50
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Zaphod42 posted:E: Okay I thought of another good thought expiriment But this isn’t the same example because it’s fundamentally different. You’re talking about time travel. I’m talking about moving in the -t direction. Also, Sator never had the gold to begin with so your example doesn’t fit. The gold bar is traveling forward in time the only way it knows how: “backwards” in the -t direction (from our perspective). The future people put the gold bar in a place that they 100% know for sure that will be accessible in 2021. The gold bar doesn’t time travel, it just travels “forward” in time in the direction it’s governing physics moves it, which to us is -t. This is also seemingly what the movie shows us happened with the gold bars so I’m not sure why you’re saying it’s not possible, when the film shows us it’s possible.
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May 11, 2021 19:53
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:One theory I read that actually makes the motivations of future people make sense is that the device they sent back is part of a thing that would invert the earth itself which would reverse ecological collapse but would seriously gently caress things up coherence-wise so they have to erase the past to rewind the earth. Yeaaaah the only way that works though is if continuity and causality simply do not loving exist, in which case how does any of the time travel mechanics work? It literally contradicts everything. But I could definitely see something where people in the future are trying to extend their otherwise doomed lives by simply living time in reverse. The problem there is there's no need for some doomsday "algorithm", you'd just have increasing numbers of future travellers showing up in our time while inverted. The whole earth would become overrun with inverted people. And then its like, have they been here all along? Actually, that'd be a weird but cool sci-fi ending. It ends up the people of the future create a massive time-inversion machine and then invert themselves but launch into space. It ends up that inverted humans were living on Mars this whole time, going backwards, hiding from us. The movie ends in the year 300,000 B.C. as an inverted future human lands on Earth from Mars and sees backwards moving homo sapiens. They build an entire backwards-travelling society that exists until the year 13.7 billion B.C. and then their society is destroyed in the Big Bang, which ends up being the end of the universe and not the beginning.
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May 11, 2021 19:54
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pospysyl posted:If Sator takes out the gold in 2021, then comes back in 2022, will he find gold in the box or not? If he takes it out in 2021 and inverts it, and a year elapses and it’s 2022 then there is no gold in the box. There doesn’t need to be gold in the box. By 2022, the gold bar will have aged 101 years, assuming it was mined and created in 2121. 100 years moving “backwards,” 1 year moving “forward.”
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May 11, 2021 19:55
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pospysyl posted:If Sator takes out the gold in 2021, then comes back in 2022, will he find gold in the box or not? If P unfires the inverted bullet in 2021, then comes back to the lab in 2022, will the bullet still be in the wall or not?
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May 11, 2021 19:55
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Boris Galerkin posted:But this isn’t the same example because it’s fundamentally different. You’re talking about time travel. I’m talking about moving in the -t direction.  What do you think time travel is? They're the same thing. Boris Galerkin posted:The point is we’re all time travelers. It’s just that we’re all traveling “forward” in time. You yourself said this! Boris Galerkin posted:Also, Sator never had the gold to begin with so your example doesn’t fit. Oh my god, Boris. Its a thought experiment to help you understand the temporal paradox. No, it isn't the exact same situation! That's the point! You're having trouble understanding Sator's situation so I gave you one that's more straightforward. Once you understand the concept, then you should be able to apply it to the more complicated situation that Sator is in. I'm trying here man! You're making this hard.
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May 11, 2021 19:56
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Boris Galerkin posted:If he takes it out in 2021 and inverts it, and a year elapses and it’s 2022 then there is no gold in the box. There doesn’t need to be gold in the box. By 2022, the gold bar will have aged 101 years, assuming it was mined and created in 2121. 100 years moving “backwards,” 1 year moving “forward.” If its 2022 an there's no gold in the box how does he take the gold out in 2021? There MUST be gold in 2022 for Sator to get it in 2021 because the gold is inverted! Otherwise how does it get there in 2021? To have gold someplace, either you take normal gold and put it there beforehand, or you take inverted gold and put it there later on. But either way somebody has to put the gold there for it to be there. It can't just BE. And if you prevented someone from putting it there, it can't still be there.
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May 11, 2021 19:58
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What I meant by saying I’m talking about moving in the -t direction is that I’m seeing it as nothing more than moving in the -x direction vs +x direction. We know that in order for someone to travel backwards in time in the movie, they have to actually let that same amount of time elapse. So I don’t see that as time travel in the sense of popping up somewhere in the past. If you’re 30 years old in 2021 and decide to travel to 2011, you’ll “arrive” then but now you’re 40 years old because 10 years needed to elapse. You don’t magically turn 20. So the gold bar doesn’t need to still be in the box in 2022 if Sator takes it out in 2021.
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May 11, 2021 20:05
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Zaphod42 posted:If its 2022 an there's no gold in the box how does he take the gold out in 2021? Such linear thinking. It got there because it went back in time, at a speed of -1 second per second. Job done. It doesn't need to be sitting in the box, going back in time when Sator's in 2022, because it already did. stratdax fucked around with this message at 20:08 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 20:06
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Boris Galerkin posted:What I meant by saying I’m talking about moving in the -t direction is that I’m seeing it as nothing more than moving in the -x direction vs +x direction. Of course, but that's entirely irrelevant to this issue. The point is you can end up in 2020, then 2022, then 2021, in that order. Right? Your apparent age does not matter lol. Boris Galerkin posted:So the gold bar doesn’t need to still be in the box in 2022 if Sator takes it out in 2021. It absolutely 100% does. How does aging over time mean you can create paradoxes??
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May 11, 2021 20:07
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