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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


It seemed like a waste of a good premise. Inverting and temporal pincer movements seem like such rich soil for some absolutely great and imaginative scenes. Both barely appear in the first half of the movie. It's just a pretty straightforward spy film. Then, when we finally get to the film's premise, we only get a car chase and the incredibly dumb final battle. I don't resent Nolan having a lot of expository dialogue (explaining a paradox is pretty bad though) i resent him setting up pretty complex rules and doing nothing interesting with them.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


salt shakeup posted:

The plane smashing into a building is actually badass and cool.

It absolutely should have been, just as a special forces team, half of them going forwards in time, half backwards, attacking a town built around a nuclear silo should be really cool. Or a car chase with the same premise.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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AccountSupervisor posted:

Yeah I guess its safe to say if that was badass and cool for you it makes sense you liked the rest of the film. I legitimately dont even mean that as a slight, its just for me its a macro example of a lot of my issues with the film in general. Like the movie, it seems cool in my head and conceptually its badass and seeing a plane crash into building should absolutely excite me but practically it was just a complete dud. Something that I should have found exciting and thrilling but just kind of left me feeling absolutely nothing.

especially if you compare it to, say, Face/Off's scene where a plane crashes into a building, which is a loving nuts scene.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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ymgve posted:

The battle scenes are intentionally confusing and people are shooting at nothing because its really hard to see how a forwards moving army and a backwards moving army would fight in any sensible fashion

then he shouldn't have done it with an army. He should have done it with a smaller group of heroes and villains and used the concept a lot better.

Even if the scene doesn't fully make sense, at least give us some good imagery. Buildings flying back together, rows of dead soldiers springing back to life. As incomplete and unfinished as the finale of Doctor Strange was, it looked amazing.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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There isn't a force on earth that can make Pattinson take the movies he's in seriously.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Payndz posted:

So what would happen if, the first time you approached the turnstile, you got freaked out by the sight of your inverted self reverse-exiting it and decided "gently caress that, I'm not going in there"? Do the time travel rules say that you've already gone through, so there's nothing you can do to prevent it however hard you try - and what does that say about the nature of free will?

Well, you couldn't get so freaked out that you wouldn't have gone in, because in that case you'd never see yourself come back out.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Perestroika posted:

It kinda feels like the whole thing with the inverted bullets and stuff actually work against the movie instead of for it. It gives you enough information that it feels like things should start making intuitive sense, and when they don't it stops the movie in its tracks. And at that point they've already gone too far into the mechanical specifics that handwavey moments like "grandfather paradox doesn't apply because it would be inconvenient to the plot" just come off as extra frustrating. The explanations were just giving the movie enough rope to hang itself with.

Probably should have just pulled a Looper-style "These are the rules, no they don't make sense, stop worrying about it" from the beginning.

Looper's depiction of time travel is actually consistent with itself. The characters don't fully understand it (closing your loop feels more like superstition than anything else) but the rules, as shown, are easy to grasp and work the same way each time.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Darko posted:

Looper is grandfather paradox causality until the end where its not. It presents one form of time travel for half of it, then swaps to Back to the Future version at the end.

Maybe the Tenet group saw Looper and were scared they were in that movie so thats why they were going through the motions even if the evidence looked like single timeline grandfather paradox.

No, it's the same in both cases. You can go back kill your younger self (or cause them to die) and you will cease existing from that moment. That scene where they're mutilating Paul Dano's character is, as well as an extremely memorable scene, a demonstration of the mechanics, which are consistent with how the plot is resolved.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

The end of this movie ends with a ten-minute fight done forwards and backwards

Which is something that should be absolutely dope. It isn't though. It's just groups of people with different coloured armbands running around a quarry as explosions go off occasionally, sometimes backwards.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I mean I got a lot more of the impact of that battle a second time. When I realized that Blue Team is coming in on the explosion that ends the movie and that I could see the Protag and Neill in the shot, that Neill shoots at himself in the jeep, that the entire world is predestinated and somebody has SCP-like cleanup crews that go around collecting inverted objects after battles, etc. And yes I watched it like 3 times and the amount of "jog around shooting at nothing" is just totally unacceptable; I don't care if it's supposed to be like that because "the characters are shooting their guns largely on faith" or w/e, IMO if somebody spends 200 million dollars and put a huge action scene in the movie their primary goal (again IMO) is to make a great action sequence that's clearly comprehensible and exciting. The "shooting at nothing" scenes undermine the legit thrilling poo poo like "almost getting sucked into a building shot with an inverted explosive" or "the bad guys are laying traps, and only the inverted dude knows about it and since it's already been triggered in his past he has to do something else" or even "fuckin hell how does anyone get shot by an inverted enemy since (from their perspective) the dudes are running backward away from them and will step BACK into cover to shoot at them and vice versa? Unless you're in a box they should never be a threat to each other, the only scary people should be people going the same direction you are" which would be absolutely sick, but they never show any of it. However like I said at the end of the day I got to see a building get absolutely time-hosed and it's hard to completely poo poo on such ambition.

I think that's the frustrating bit: There are interesting and weird implications to the mechanics, like seeing a body, not being sure if it was killed forwards or backwards, double tapping to be sure, and bringing it back to life. Or the inverse, of seeing a dead comrade, only for them to spring back to life and help you in some way. or running across an empty landscape, only to suddenly realise that there was a building that will be destroyed there in a few moments, and so you run out of the area as its pulled back together. Even if the exact mechanics don't quite make sense, you could do way cooler stuff and at least create some great images.

A much smaller scene with a limited number of players in it, a smaller, clearer area would have let him play a lot more effectively and interestingly than how it played out.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Groovelord Neato posted:

In Timecrimes wasn't it his wife never fell off the roof and it was always him pushing a woman he made up to look like his wife. Been a long while since I've seen it.

Timecrimes was pretty drat clever, but I saw it shortly after 'Triangle' from 2009 or 10 (depends which release date you go off) and, not to have a go at Timecrimes, but Triangle makes it pretty half assed by comparison. It's not trying to do the same thing, but what it does is crazy impressive

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Well the issue there is that Timecrimes was made for pennies on the dollar compared to Triangle. So it's going to seem A LOT more mundane.

No, that isn't the issue. Triangle is just trying to tell a much, much weirder story. You could have switched their budgets and it would still be true. I'm not having a go at Timecrimes, it's just that old canard of the best being the enemy of the good.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That's half-right. The film's explanation is this:

"He buries his time capsule, transmits the location, then digs it up to collect the inverted materials they sent. Seemingly instantaneous."

That doesn't actually work, because digging up the capsule now means it will no longer be there in the future. And the inverted gold is going backwards in time, so Sator should already have it before he goes through any of this procedure.

Based on the film's logic, it must actually go like this:

1) Sator builds a "turnstile".
2) Two capsules full of gold magically pop out of each end - one of which is inverted.
3) Sator buries the inverted gold in a secret location. (He must do this to avoid a TIME PARADOX.)
4) Sator can now freely spend the normal gold.

And you can probably see how this runs into issues.

It's why Bill and Ted's 'just remember to put that there later...ah, here it is' makes at least as much sense.

I loving love Bill and Ted.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

That's probably my favorite moment in Bill and Ted and they're fun films.

Which just makes me think of all the more complex causality bullshit we could have gotten into.

Like imagine if you're doing a Temporal Pincer Attack and you have the team that's inverted tell you which soldiers they saw who had bullet holes and which didn't, and then you'd know not to shoot at the ones who didn't get shot to save time. (Course, is that because you missed them, or because you told yourself not to shoot those soldiers in the first place???)

I think they could have pulled off a much more interesting temporal pincer attack with a much smaller scene. Make it involve maybe ten people on either side, or even total. Bigger isn't better if you don't have bigger ideas. Or, if you want it to be big, at least give us some cool imagery: people springing back to life as bullets are sucked out of them, or getting hit by inverted bullets and dying in a strange, backwards motion. Double tapping a body, only to bring it back to life and have it shoot at the team going the other way.

Interestingly, Doctor Strange understood this, a film from a franchise that's pretty cookie cutter when it comes to spectacle. The inverted battle towards the end doesn't really make sense and is essentially unfinished, but it's easily the most memorable part of the film.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

A fight where you had like 4 people on one side and 4 people on another side, with 2 inverted on each team, would probably carry more weight than having 20 people. Being able to recognize faces would make things way more interesting. Of course, it'd probably be prohibitively difficult / expensive to choreograph and film that kind of fight sequence, the one where the Protagonist fights himself is already pretty bonkers.

Like imagine if inverted Protagonist and non-inverted Neil were fist-fighting with some 3rd bad-guy, and they were trying to synchronize their attacks while being temporally inverted with each other. Protag sees Neil's fist coming out of the bad guy's face, and then Neil gets flung up in the air. Protag realizes he needs to "catch" Neil (actually toss him) in order to make this work. etc. etc.

Something like that, in a small apartment or safehouse or something, done with real care and dedication, would have been amazing. Hire Jackie Chan or the John Wick guys or something, get them planning and choreographing the scene as early as possible, give them a lot of control in how the scene is shot and edited. Basically, do all the things good action movies have always done to get the results they get, instead of just having two groups of guys running around in different coloured hats.

Since we're talking about time war fiction, has anyone read the book 'This is how you lose the time war'? I picked it up recently and, while it opens interestingly, it feels like it could go either way.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah its a shame though since the shakey cam makes it hard to fully appreciate.

And then it inspired a bunch of other movies to do shakey cam and not bother doing choreography at all.

I'd much rather just have a locked off camera that's pulled back and lets me see where people are in the scene!

The b-roll footage of Bourne Supremacy, the one with the worst shaky cam, shows that the actors had trained hard and could pull off some really slick poo poo that the camera then actively hid.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

Again, I would say the same about Michael Bay and he does it more blatantly and intentionally and yet audiences love it.

Unfortunately most audiences don't seem to mind poor action scenes, hence so many of them in hollywood.

Not really. His action scenes in Transformers get progressively better from film to film as he gets more comfortable with the technology and it gets easier to do. 13 Hours was way too loving long but the shootouts were outstanding.


Halloween Jack posted:

I sometimes feel like his ideal film is The Limits of Control and he's mad that Jarmusch already made it. Just a series of scenes where people wearing designer clothing have conversations about nothing in overpriced cafes.

A bunch of people sitting around explaining the details and themes of a plot that never actually happens.

I'd actually be...sort of onboard with that.

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