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Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

I think that the fit bit would have transmitted some important information about the when of his death, too, preventing Tenet from being able to dig up the device later

Other stuff:

1 - my eyes must have gotten slow because I couldnít track what exactly happened when inverted Neil took a bullet at the end. Did he rappel in so that he unlocked the door and took the bullet at the same instant?

2 - there was one particular use of inversion to build tension that I liked. When Sator has the gun to Kat, and thereís the bloody inverted bullet hole there. Itís positioned so it looks like heís going to has shot her in the head.

3 - to the poster from earlier in the thread who commented on the theme of selfishness vs caring for others. I think Ayn Rand once commented that when she died, the whole world would die. The idea being, of course, that when you value nothing beyond your own experience, the world may end with your experience. So I think that fits nicely with your analysis of Sator.

4 - I picked up the global warming theme at the beginning, when P meets the scientist. We see the traces and detritus of it in the present, even if the full catastrophe is in the future. So when Sator brings it up later, itís not completely out of nowhere.

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Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Another thought on the theme of selfishness vs caring about others, this time with respect to the final scene.

When Kat leaves her message for P, we can see that she cannot actually tell if P got the message, if he did anything, or if she was just spooked by a random car. We may infer that there have been other such incidents, there will be further incidents, and in every case Kat will not know the truth except for the fact that she continues to live. She is, in effect, praying to P.

This sets up a contrast with Sator, insisting upon his ability to send things through time and defending his decision to have the world end with him, calls himself god. He calls himself god because he sees himself as all powerful, the master of all around him, and everyone else only exists at his permission. In effect, he's god because he's on top. He's the boss. But by the end of the movie it's P answering prayers and thereby playing the role of God, though in a very different way. He's not the boss, he's the one who answers prayers.

So, in this way, the religious theme returns to the core theme of selfishness vs service.

Hand Knit fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Dec 7, 2020

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Groovelord Neato posted:

But his plan doesn't make sense unless nobody else knows where he's buried the Algorithm. It's not like when he puts out a box and tells them where it is and gold appears instantly from his perspective because they invert it from their time.

Remember that from their perspective what theyíve seen is Sator buries a container at a location with information about where and when he did that. He then reopens the container and finds stuff sent backwards from the future. Importantly, this appears to happen instantaneously.

What appears to happen, and what makes most sense is the future people find the container in the location Sator left it, invert it, and send it back to the pre-determined drop point. Sator retrieves it when it reaches his point in time. This is consistent with a basic four dimensional view of time, where time is just another axis that we move along. All points in time are equally Ďrealí, just elsewhen. According to this view thereís no ďfirst passĒ or anything, and the facts about this four dimensional world are timelessly true.

This is the view that Neil says is probably right. And, accordingly, youíre right when you say the plan doesnít make sense on this view. However, the heroes donít know that this is true. Itís probably true, but all this time poo poo is indistinguishable from magic from their perspective. So, with their uncertainty, even if it clashes with their beliefs about whatís possible, it could be true that, say, once the algorithm is buried thereís a window of time when it has made it to the future, and in that window the future people could detonate the algorithm in the past. Itís unclear how this would work, metaphysically, but the characters donít know enough to know that it wonít work, and one of the themes of the movie is acting in the absence of knowledge.

tl;dr youíre right that the plan makes no sense but the characters are dealing with a world where things that make no sense are already happening, and the movie is in part about acting in faith.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

gregday posted:

What if youíre inverted and you poop?

Utter chaos as Tenet-world Elon Musk creates inverted toilets but forgets to attach them to an inverted sewage system.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Assassinating someone by inverting their bones but not their flesh, causing their skeleton to leap out of their body and run away.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

OldSenileGuy posted:

Anyone know why the gently caress Sean Avery was in this movie, and with two lines even?

Hold up, where?

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

OldSenileGuy posted:

He was in the tent or whatever when the head military guy was explaining the plan for the big final battle.

This brought me to look up his imdb page, and it looks like he's actually trying to do some acting stuff. I regret not noticing him at the time.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

gregday posted:

I keep remembering things Iím confused about :

So if the opera house scene and the Stalsk-12 battle are the same day, how is the ď241Ē in both places? I get that itís because of inversion creating duplicates kind of fuckery, but we donít see it get inverted and I csnt figure out exactly what happened there.


Is the opera the 241 or is it another bit of the algorithm?

Hand Knit fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Dec 20, 2020

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Still Dismal posted:

I do kind of agree that they should have just had the balls to go with ďno one knows how this works. We have a working knowledge that allows us to do some things reliably, but we donít understand the deeper mechanics.Ē and had all of the characters be as confused as the audience.

That is the line they went with. Neil says as much in a conversation with P, specifically in the context of why they have to stop Sator's plan even though Sator's plan makes no sense and shouldn't work.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Itís clear enough how the plot works. The plot works to the effect that the characters are uncertain, and they are acting in light of that uncertain. Their uncertainty is quite clear.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

gregday posted:

I canít decide if itís clever or dumb that neither knows why theyíre fighting. From both of their perspectives, the other guy started the fight. They fight because they fight.

I mean, P and Neil just got done fighting a bunch of mooks. And now here are some more mooks in storm-trooper looking gear.

JazzFlight posted:

Doesn't he also try to shoot himself? Real galaxy-brained stuff there.

I seem to remember feeling like there was a definite pause where P(new) was aiming the gun away from P(old)'s head before firing.

e: I also want to add that I felt like the first time through, the mystery storm troopers shooting out of both sides of the turnstile at the same team was a neat visual. I really liked that.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

JazzFlight posted:

I think Nolan thinks it works like this:
-Sator buries a capsule
-Sator e-mails the location to a server that presumably does not get shut down ever
-Future People read e-mail (let's say 100 years from now)
-Future People dig up capsule, insert inverted gold which travels back in time, and rebury capsule
-Sator digs up capsule (right after he buried it) that now has inverted gold that's been sitting there for 100 years in reverse
-Sator (presumably) re-buries capsule in same spot, or else... gold will disappear because an empty capsule will not be in that spot 100 years from now?
-Sator inverts the gold and spends it

For the next drop, he picks a different location.
I don't think... there's a problem with this? Maybe?

They would have to rebury the backwards-travelling capsule in a different location, otherwise you'd have the forwards-travelling capsule and backwards-travelling capsule occupying the same space at the times in between the shipment. This also means that every future-to-past or past-to-future shipment has to use a different area. And, if i remember correctly, we do see something like this at the abandoned nuclear site where Sator's mooks are constantly digging up new areas.


quote:

This is the same logic that deflated the ending because Nolan claimed that things happen pretty much instantaneously if they're buried and the email is sent, but if anyone messes with the dig site inbetween now and the Future People, nothing happens. If the heroes just spent the next 10 years digging up the nuclear blast site, they'd find the algorithm and stop the whole plan.

There's one option the Future People could do to win, which is to invert operatives who would live decades in a bunker (even through generations???) so that they could travel back to our present to get the algorithm now that they know its location. But if they were willing to do that, why bother doing a lot of the other things in the movie...

They address this head on. Logically, to the best of their understanding of how inversion works, such an approach would work. And logically, to the best of their understanding of how inversion works, they have already succeeded at whatever they will do. However, since they're really not so sure about how this whole time inversion entropy thing works, they decide for prudential reasons it's better to stop what Sator is trying to do in the first place. Just in case they're wrong about this whole time magic thing. This ties in to the movie's whole theme about acting on faith and all that.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

But there is no way for the "empty case, close case, open case and it's full of inverted gold" technique works, because the minute you open the case and view the gold you're interacting with that gold's past and we know what the past was: it's been sitting in the ground untouched until you opened the case. Whoops! TIME PARADOX

There's always time magic like "the transport box is programmed to de-invert itself as it reaches the agreed upon time." Maybe Sator has to pick it up at the exact perfect time. Maybe the time magic keeps the object's entropy in some way "frozen" so when it reaches time T it simply stays at T instead of returning to moving forwards through time.

It's a time magic cheat, but it's already part of the movie that we don't know for sure just what the time wizards can do.

It may not be satisfying but it's enough to say that (on this particular point) the movie isn't logically impossible.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

pospysyl posted:

Here's the issue: what if Present Sator closes the box and opens it a minute later. Logically, there should be a gold bar there; in the inverted timeline Sator hasn't taken it out yet. Can Sator get unlimited gold in this way?

So David Lewis writes this about the grandfather paradox in four-dimensionalism. All the pieces of the paradox are "compossible," which means they're all things you can do (within our time travelling world). However, killing your own grandfather would create a paradox and is therefore logically impossible. This means that any attempt to kill one's own grandfather would have to be stopped by coincidence, like slipping on a banana peel.

So Sator returning to the time-post spot again and again is compossible. But he simply doesn't.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

If the film were playing fair, you would have an army of inverted skeletons. Tenet people could place them in strategic locations to undecompose and 'spring back to life' when needed.

Unfortunately, the film uses "winds of entropy" to say that the corpses just pop in/out of existence offscreen.

There is nothing fair about an army of inverted skeletons.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Zaphod42 posted:

Uh.... why??

So the inverted gold is travelling backwards in time, and is at some spatial location. Non-inverted Sator receives the package. He goes to pick it up forward-time direction. As he picks up the gold, forward-time moving, the gold at time T+1 is now at two overlapping spatial locations: where it was heading backwards and now how it is moving forwards.

I think there are a number of ways around that, but that's the basic problem.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

If he takes inverted gold out of the box he's taken it out in the gold's past. But we know definitively that the gold's past was it sitting in a case in the ground, so it's a TIME PARADOX. It can't come out of the case in it's own past, as we know it was there the entire time. The method where the turnstile just randomly spits out a pair of gold cases and he buries one does not violate causality.

The same gold existing at two different spatial locations at the same time slice is not, in and of itself, a problem. If all four dimensions are equal, it's no more of a problem than someone being in the same spatial location at two different times.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

I'm not expecting any real perfection, I just think that time travel on four-dimensionalism makes for fun logic games.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

The problem is not that a non-inverted person can't interact with an inverted object. The problem is that an inverted object's past is a normal person's future, and that if you know the past you can't change it - it's totally deterministic

There isn't actually a problem here. Sure it's improbably and implausible and narratively contrived that people don't interfere. But logically it works just fine. (And, as a side note, this isn't actually determinism that we're talking about. In fact, we're kind of trying to reconcile 4D time travel with a lack of determinism.)

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

gregday posted:

The movie doesnít state with 100% confidence that changing the determined past is impossible. Thatís certainly Neilís belief, but if it were a known fact then they would know Sator will inevitably fail. Instead it strongly suggests the past is unchangeable and never shows us anything to the contrary. But itís kind of a Nolan scifi trademark that we donít completely understand the science we are using.

I think this goes back to the point where changing thing is technically compossible but logically impossible, so for one reason or another it just doesn't happen. After all, if all times are equally real, then it was always the case that things were a certain way at T1.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Tenet is the block universe. It's 100% deterministic. The key scene for understanding this is when the Protagonist first inverts, he sees a puddle starts to ripple before he steps in it. He nonetheless steps in it, in the exact place where it was rippling. He could never have "chosen" not to step in the puddle.

So this is going in to technical definitions that aren't necessarily going to contribute to anything else we're talking about, but what the hell. Why not?

Determinism is about cause and effect, and doesn't presuppose any particular theory of time. It just means that anything that happens can be entirely explained by antecedent causes. We should note that this is not necessarily incompatible with free will ó†a lot of people hold some version of what's called compatibilism. This is gonna involve something like using your decisions (which could have been otherwise, on some sense) as antecedent causes to explain your actions.

What we're talking about is something else. That fact that some state of affairs is the case at some particular point in time is 'timelessly true' because that's just what the state of affairs was at that point in time. This doesn't have anything to do with causation. Rather, the fact that some state of affairs is timelessly true just has to do with the fact that some state of affairs was the case at that point in time.

Altogether then, P could have chosen not to step in the puddle. But he didn't.

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Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

First, thanks for engaging with me. I'm having a lot of fun discussing this with you guys.

So, to the point of the puddle: I do believe that he could not. The movie says "either way you made it happen" when showing the video tape, but it's lying. If the effect comes before the cause, the cause must occur, ergo there is no choice and no free will.

Think about driving the inverted car. In order to "start" it you would walk up and get in and depress the brake, then push the start button. From the inverted car's perspective, you just stopped the car, turned the car off, got out, and walked away (backwards).

Now you're ready to drive, so you put the car in reverse and release the brake. From your perspective, the car would start rolling gently forward. From the car's perspective, it was rolling gently backwards, and you hit the brake to stop it.

Now it's time to drive the car. At this point all the inputs would be reversed and you will feel the effects of your driving before you actually performed the action. You would feel the suspension start to lean in the direction you were going to turn before you turned. And at no point could you feel the car start to accelerate (which meant that you were braking) and say "oh I'm going to step on the accelerator instead, I'm going to turn the wheel in the opposite direction from which the car's frame is leaning". That's simply not possible to do without a TIME PARADOX. That's why I say there's no free will.

Think about where you are right now. Sitting in front of your computer, in your office or living room, reading this post. Now, there are a lot of ways this could have been different. You could've chosen to go somewhere else, you could've chosen do something other than sit in front of your computer, and you could've chosen to visit a different website instead of this one. So there's a lot of ways in which the state of affairs in which you find yourself at this time could've been different. But there's also another way in which they couldn't have been different. You must be in front of your computer now because you are in front of your computer now. You must be reading this post now because you are reading this post now.

The necessity which happens in Tenet is (by and large, there's obviously a lot of funkiness) of this second type. He steps in the puddle at time T because he stepped in the puddle at time T. There's no 'first pass' or 'second pass' by which things could be different. There's only one time T, and the way things were at that time is just the way things are at that time.And this is compatible with free will. P chose to step in the puddle at time T. It's not like time T ever stopped existing or was revisited. What happened at time T is 'timelessly true' ó†it's just a coordinate in time like your room is a coordinate in space.

Now what if P, enlightened about four-dimensional time, explicitly sets out to gently caress things up? Intentions present their own special weirdness. But for us, now, it's enough to say that what happened with the puddle is necessary not because it had to happen (it didn't), but because it did happen.

So what about the car? I mean, to start, we're probably going to have to attribute a lot of how the car works to movie magic. Like, if inverted fire is cold instead of hot, what exactly is happening with the car's engine?

As for the paradox you say you're identifying, I don't think I see it. There's definitely all sorts of contrived weirdness ó†what you press in what order in order to make the car go is a hell of a thing to figure out ó†but there doesn't seem to be anything logically impossible. There doesn't seem to be any point at which, for instance, you have the same object be at two interfering positions at the same time.

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