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JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Like a couple goons here, I'm on the side of absolutely hating this movie.
I love Memento and have gradually liked each subsequent Nolan movie a little less than the last, ending with detesting Dunkirk most recently before this.

The characters are not human, they're robots. The dialogue in this movie is some of the most amateurish trash where everyone has the same voice and they just spout Wikipedia entries back and forth to each other. A lot of scenes are "are you familiar with BLANK?" "Oh yes, it is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" exposition dump about stuff that doesn't matter and just makes you feel like you need to be keeping notes. Aside from having a character named Arepo so that they can fill out the Sator square, why did we have to hear about the stupid offscreen art forgery stuff?

It really started to seem absurd when the weapons dealer woman explained that in the future, a brilliant scientist came up with a technology and split it into many Horcruxes Macguffins and hid it in the past as a physical algorithm in the form of nuclear material. WHAT?! Why didn't she just destroy it? What the gently caress? Why didn't the heroes destroy it at the end instead of saying that they needed to hide it and then kill themselves?


This movie made me angry from about the 15-minute mark onward until I was filled with rage for Christopher Nolan by the 3/4th mark. I was constantly asking questions at the screen or cursing at it.

I think this is one of the worst movies ever made and reminds me a lot of Southland Tales where an acclaimed director gets given a big budget and goes wayyyyy overboard and up their own rear end.

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JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Groovelord Neato posted:

This is not correct.
I know you’re technically correct because yes, there were similarly-dressed mercs in white outfits that were supposed to be the bad guy forces.

However, the point is that they completely blended in with the attacking army and the action was so confusingly portrayed as to render them invisible. There was no tension since we were never given a clear view of the battlefield or what each side was doing.

Even Michael Bay, for all his over the top explosions and non-stop camera swings, has brought much more understandable battle scenes to the screen.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



This is purely just a plot hole nitpick that a goon brought up earlier, but I'm not sure I understand the problem and would like it explained by a Tenet apologist:

So they were under the gun to prevent Sator from dropping the algorithm into a pit when an underground nuke was to go off. He was going to kill himself at around the same time as well, which would have somehow exploded the world due to time fuckery at the same moment. I think it was because his heart fitbit would have e-mailed the location to the future people. God drat that's a stupid sentence to have to type.

What's to stop them from digging up and removing the algorithm drop at any time after the explosion during the next "(whatever # of decades/centuries later)" before the future people come to collect it? They still could have wiped the area and prevented the future group from getting the knowledge, it didn't seem to need to be tied so specifically to that exact moment in time, right?

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 6, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



salt shakeup posted:

No the doomsday device was sent back in time from the future so you have it backwards, or shall I say, inverted.
Wait, lemme get this right:

Was the movie saying that the screwed together square-shaped containment devices they were chasing after is actually the finalized "world inverter" that would activate upon being dropped in a pit when an underground nuclear bomb goes off?

I really don't think the movie made that clear. I thought it was supposed to be a dead-drop of the assembled formula for the future people to find.


EDIT: Why is this plot so stupid and contrived, holy poo poo. Is this like The Lady in the Water where the director made a movie about a story he ad-libbed for his kids?

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 6, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Groovelord Neato posted:

The movie didn't make it clear it's the one genuinely confusing part. Even as someone that enjoyed the movie that's on Nolan not you.

It's strange to me he supposedly worked on the script so long because if I had been I would've given Sator a better motive and explored the global warming motivation a lot more since I liked the reveal a lot. Actually reminded me of one of the best SCPs.
Apparently I'm not the only one thinking this is an odd oversight.
https://www.reddit.com/r/tenet/comments/im9zm7/algorithm_confusion/

I really think the movie specifies that Sator's dead man's switch just sends an e-mail with the location to dig up the algorithm later. This would be counter to your interpretation.

EDIT:
Here's my only idea for how the evil plan would work:
Future people live in an inverted box for however many decades/centuries (Jesus, are they having kids in an inverted box for this stupid plan???) to go allllllll the way back to the present day, where they will make sure to intercept the package before the heroes can dig it up and destroy it. Maybe they develop a giant underground bunker that's completely inverted and separate from the surface?

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 7, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Groovelord Neato posted:

I wasn't saying you were wrong I'm saying it's legitimately confusing. Your interpretation is the correct one.
Oh, whoops, sorry, I meant to say counter to salt shakeup's post.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Grandpa Palpatine posted:

The reason why they can't just go back later and dig up the algorithm: the minute it gets buried in the dead drop, it will be there for the future generation. The present would get annihilated instantaneously because it's effects propagate backwards through time. That was the whole point of the question about the grandfather paradox. Sure, they might be wrong and it won't affect them, but if they aren't wrong, the entire universe and existence itself is destroyed instantaneously.
I don't understand that. I think that would only make sense if they never knew where it was buried or what the villain's plan was to begin with.

Or is this some Bill & Ted "let's make sure to leave the key right here for ourselves" or "put a trash can on the ceiling to drop on our dad's head" stuff and then it just happens because they're the victors and they made sure to come back and do that.

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Dec 7, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



TychoCelchuuu posted:

You sit down on a toilet and the poop goes up into your butt. "But what about the other direction?" You can't! Any more than you can suck poop up into your butt in normal life. Your butt is a one-way poop producer and when you invert yourself you invert that. Just like an inverted gun sucks up bullets, and inverted butt sucks up poop.
If you sit on a toilet of inverted poop, it will go up your butt and eventually you'll form a complete hotdog bite by bite out of your mouth.

I'm angry that Christopher Nolan didn't include this important scene in the movie.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Simone Magus posted:

Realizing that Arepo is Opera backwards has made me retroactively dock this movie a full point lol
It's all taken from this historical word square thing that Nolan must have thought was really clever but then all he did was use the names for characters/organizations (some of which had barely any bearing on the plot like Arepo and Rotas, felt like he just needed to shove in the words somewhere). Shoulda worked in the diagonals, too, we could have had characters like Mr. Srnrs and Ms. Rpnpr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Dec 13, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



As another goon pointed out in this thread at some point, he wanted to incorporate "Opera," but the action scene isn't even during an opera, it's an orchestral performance at an opera house! Like, at least go full bore and make it a real opera!

Even the titular name isn't explained, they just use it as a code word a couple times!

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Dec 13, 2020

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



God Hole posted:

fuckin kingdom hearts rear end movie
This! That's exactly the level of pseudoscience logic the movie had.
They might as well have been saying Darkness/Hearts/Nobodies/X-Blade/etc... instead of inversion and temporal pincer.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



gregday posted:

and I just can't get my head around how inverted bullets are already in the walls.
Actually, you're right. When do those bullets appear there? Like, for instance, the bullets in the glass. When they installed the glass, did it already have bullets in it? Or the broken passenger sideview mirror on the car during the chase scene. I spotted it early, figuring it would be "repaired" by crashing into an inverted car later, but when was it broken in the first place?

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



This movie is like Nolan had a weird dream with its own internal logic and then tried to film it. There are a lot of arbitrary rules and plot holes peppered throughout because the core plot of the movie is just half-baked.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Android Apocalypse posted:

The secret reason inverted folks wear gas masks.



Something about air not working with inverted lungs either.
This was such a dumb part of the logic, along with how heat was supposed to be backwards, too. It was practically Elaine from that Seinfeld episode when she asks Jerry if Bizarro Superman was black and lives underwater. I guess they also invert all the canisters of oxygen they need? I mean, because you can't breathe "normal" oxygen.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



My sister and her husband weren't impressed after watching it recently and also were confused at some points, so they decided to watch a youtube explainer video that told them that Neil is Max, Kat's son, all grown up.

No, that is not correct.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Yeah, for as much as it tries to be scientific and logical, it just makes up magical rules about "feeling" your interactions with reverse objects and how they don't operate fully independent of our reality because they're essentially "swimming against the current" of forward time.

That just allows the movie to have a bazillion plot holes and wave it away with some nebulous "well that's just how it works."

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



I just have to rant again about everyone on the internet misinterpreting what the Algorithm was, just a testament to how poorly Christopher Nolan explained the macguffin of the film. So many reddit posts state that the Algorithm was the actual doomsday device, like it was a physical bomb that would go off when dropped in that pipe at the end (or that Sator had a dead man's switch that would activate it when he died). However, it was not. It was simply the formula for the machine.

The idea was that Sator would bury it in a secret location and send the location via "email burst" to the people in the future when he died and to us, it would instantaneously activate because the only people who would dig it up would be the future people (let's say ~100 years from now). The problem is that Tenet knew where the location was by the climax and could have just dug it up whenever they wanted, negating the "secret location" advantage that Sator had.

I'm looking directly at the script here for my evidence:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-T3zyGiaNczvSvASWD_T8WCcv3aMcGLG/view

quote:

PROTAGONIST
What did you find on the gold?

NEIL
Three hundred thousand at today’s price, no franks, mould marks. Nothing. Like it came from outer space.

PROTAGONIST
Or the future.

NEIL
How?

PROTAGONIST
Dead drops. He buries his time capsule, transmits the location, then digs it up to collect whatever inverted material they’ve sent.

NEIL
Instantaneous. Where’s he bury it?

PROTAGONIST
Someplace that won’t be disturbed for centuries.

quote:

KAT
Tell me you’re going to kill him.

PROTAGONIST
I can’t.

KAT
Why not? I think you’ve probably killed a lot of people –

NEIL
Not with a dead man’s switch.

KAT
A what?

PROTAGONIST
That fitness tracker he wears...

KAT
He’s obsessive about his health.

NEIL
It’ll be linked to a switch. Probably a simple email burst, revealing the location of the dead drop, set to fire if his heart stops.

PROTAGONIST
In effect, his death activates the algorithm. He dies, the world ends – no one dares kill him.

Okay, you could argue that we only have our heroes' guesses to go on here, but let's take that as gospel, since it's the only theory the film gives us. Again, they're saying that all the magical nuclear horcrux thing is is a formula! And their logic is flawed because a few scenes later, they know where the dead drop is!

Part of the plot is that they need Sator to die thinking he's made the drop so that I guess he doesn't change the location. Then why even make the attack at the end? Just let the drop happen, kill Sator, then dig it up before ~100 years go by!

I HATE THIS STUPID MOVIE!

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 3, 2021

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Darko posted:

That was a guess, but once the location is known, they're just trying to stop the countdown from going off for the same lack of surety about how time works is what I got on my singular viewing. The whole group is based on "since we are not sure how this works for sure, were gonna try and stop everything."
Lol, I like how the audience, the actors, and even the characters aren’t sure how the plot works in this movie.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



zer0spunk posted:

just thinking about that part of the film where michael caine (as michael caine? what) drops that sick burn on brooks brothers

or the scene on the catamaran

lol forever at this movie, jesus christ. i hope no one caught covid for this.
Why did Nolan have Michael Caine film half of his scene while he was chewing on food?
It was ridiculous. I mean that means that the continuity person had to ensure that for the beginning takes he had to eat another mouthful of eggs or whatever.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



zer0spunk posted:

the end in the gravel pit basically sums up this whole movie for me..

if i told you the conceit to that scene as a pitch you'd go "oh, that sounds pretty clever and kinda cool, i'm down"..the proper response to "one attacking team goes in forwards and one goes in reverse and both elements collide in a kick-rear end action sequence that will be the climax of my film"

but then you get the fuckin' gravel pit in reality
I really feel that the end action scene fight needed to be the opera house but recontextualized so that we saw things from the opposite perspective and in a much more meaningful way. This way we'd actually have a movie that fits that whole mirrored "palindrome structure" it seemed Nolan was going for for most of the plot.

I was hoping for that Watchman mirrored issue idea but as a movie.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



space uncle posted:

What a dumbass. I could have watched this on a Gameboy Advance on an airplane and drawn the exact same conclusion.
Somewhat related: Everyone probably knows the “you can’t watch a movie on your loving phone!” comment from David Lynch, but I was watching something in bed one time on my iPhone 11 and the stereo distribution between the two speakers just inches from my face was really great! The sound felt like it was coming from inside my head.

I dunno if Apple has just been improving their audio over the years or what, it just made me reconsider what a handheld device could do.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



pospysyl posted:

On the second time through JDW knows what he's doing; he just needs to get to the turnstile, but his past self is incidentally blocking his way. He may also remember fighting himself the first time through, but it's equally plausible that he forgot or didn't think it through and is surprised to see his past self there.
Doesn't he also try to shoot himself? Real galaxy-brained stuff there.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Legit LOL that Twin Peaks s3 makes a ton more sense than TENET.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That actually is precisely the logic, because Sator's flashback shows a capsule being dug up. That means his gold actually originates in the past, not the future. It had to have been planted there by somebody living before the 1980s.

So Priya gave Protag false intel. But was she lying, was she herself duped, or was she half-right because Sator has multiple sources of magic gold? We don't know, and we ultimately can't know - yet each of those possibilities changes how we understand the film.

If Sator keeps digging up buckets of gold from the 1970s with the belief that it's coming direct from the future, then he's a total idiot. That's like believing in Santa because Christmas presents appeared under your tree. ("How else could they get in if all the doors were locked???")

But if Sator's not a total idiot, then he believes the "Evil Future People" already had agents doing poo poo back in the 1970s. This just raises more questions, though - like, why don't they just pay him directly instead of going though the trouble of burying the gold? Why tell him about the time-travel stuff? Why even give this dumbass multiple time machines?

Of course, if Priya is lying, then it's possible that the "Evil Future People" never existed and Sator was just set up by Tenet for obscure reasons. "This whole operation is a temporal pincer movement", etc. So basically everything in the movie happens because Protag wanted to, and it's basically a remake of Paycheck with Ben Affleck. Or not.
I dunno if I should reply to a SMG post, but I think I know what the movie was implying.

I think Nolan thinks it works like this:
-Sator buries a capsule
-Sator e-mails the location to a server that presumably does not get shut down ever
-Future People read e-mail (let's say 100 years from now)
-Future People dig up capsule, insert inverted gold which travels back in time, and rebury capsule
-Sator digs up capsule (right after he buried it) that now has inverted gold that's been sitting there for 100 years in reverse
-Sator (presumably) re-buries capsule in same spot, or else... gold will disappear because an empty capsule will not be in that spot 100 years from now?
-Sator inverts the gold and spends it

For the next drop, he picks a different location.
I don't think... there's a problem with this? Maybe?

This is the same logic that deflated the ending because Nolan claimed that things happen pretty much instantaneously if they're buried and the email is sent, but if anyone messes with the dig site inbetween now and the Future People, nothing happens. If the heroes just spent the next 10 years digging up the nuclear blast site, they'd find the algorithm and stop the whole plan.

There's one option the Future People could do to win, which is to invert operatives who would live decades in a bunker (even through generations???) so that they could travel back to our present to get the algorithm now that they know its location. But if they were willing to do that, why bother doing a lot of the other things in the movie...

JazzFlight fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 6, 2021

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Zaphod42 posted:

Except, here's where it gets weird.

What if Past Sator opens box. Sees no gold. Then closes box. Then sends email. Then future sends gold backwards. Then Present Sator opens box, sees gold. He then TAKES THE GOLD OUT. This then means the gold is no longer sitting in the box, so Past Sator sees no gold.

There's actually no conflict there.

You just have to keep thinking about things happening at the same time in both directions, which is ultra confusing. An inverted object can still be manipulated in space by non-inverted objects, and vise versa. That's what makes everything so loving weird and complicated.

If it was only inverted objects interacting with inverted objects and only normal objects with normal objects it'd be way simpler, but that's the crux of it.
Yeah, the movie pretty much states this is how it works, so by its own rules we have to accept it.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Listen, I know you're trying to explain how it doesn't make sense, but the movie plainly tells us that Sator is getting money from the future.
Therefore, that's the reality of the movie even if it breaks rules. They're not lying to the viewer. The movie hand-waves everything else away. It's just really poorly written and explained and should have gone through a lot more rewrites by people who were not Christopher Nolan.

JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



TychoCelchuuu posted:

I love this movie, but there are like 78 things you can do with inversion that are more interesting than anything in the final act, and most of them are more interesting than anything that happens in the movie at all. And that's not even counting all the comedic stuff you could do, which I guess tonally wouldn't work with the film but which could be really fun to watch!
The simple special effects shots in this YouTube video are more impressive than anything in TENET.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gooWdc6kb80

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JazzFlight
Apr 29, 2006

Oooooooooooh!



Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Look that's a cool video but seeing a milk bottle get time-hosed isn't more impressive than seeing an actual building get time-hosed. Other than that yeah that's a cool vid, thanks for sharing!
The building thing was like "oh, okay, but I don't understand what that means in the context of the battle."

(also, wouldn't some goon here have a problem with the building never being built or something? Is the building either always destroyed in one time direction or another and only briefly intact?)

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