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WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747


What is Berserk?

Berserk is a (slowly) ongoing manga series drawn by Kentaro Miura; it's a sprawling, intricate dark-fantasy epic about the bromance-turned-bitter-hatred between two men, a mercenary named Guts and his leader, Griffith.

Why should I read Berserk?

Well, in short, because it's loving amazing. While, on the surface, Berserk looks like yet another edgelord action series about Big Angry Dude tearing up hordes of mooks and demons, there's a whole lot more going on under the surface than that; the series is fundamentally a character study of a man trying to heal from a life of constant trauma and violence, and of the man who largely caused that trauma and violence throwing everyone in his path under the bus to achieve his dream. It's a story about the consequences of ambition, a story about the necessity of relying on others, and a story about the human spirit being able to smash through any and all obstacles and keep pushing forward in the face of inconceivable odds.

To put it a little more bluntly, Kentaro Miura has been making George R. R. Martin his bitch for 30 years and counting; if you like Game of Thrones, this is GoT But Actually Good.

It's also an absolutely gorgeous manga. Miura's art is probably some of the most intricate and detailed in the entire medium of manga, taking heavy influence from Hieronymus Bosch, Gustave Dore, and Albrecht Durer; he's an artist who manages to instill beauty into even the most upsetting and awful moments, and he never lets the intricacies of his art get in the way of the raw emotion of any given scene. Most impressively, his art has constantly improved over the course of the series, and at the current stage he might arguably be one of the greatest artists alive. Even if the story is completely uninteresting to you, Berserk is worth reading just to look at the drat thing.

Where should I start with Berserk?

If you're unsure about the series, but curious: watch the 1997 anime. It essentially adapts the "Golden Age" flashback arc as a standalone story, and while this causes it to suffer some cuts (particularly stuff relevant to other arcs), it's about as good of an adaptation as you could hope for, and the arc it adapts is probably the best vertical slice of the series for a newcomer.

If you're already sold: just start with volume 1 of the manga and go from there. The series starts a little rough, which is why I'm not saying fence-sitters should do this (the point at which the 1997 anime begins is usually the point where people think the series comes into its own), but it's a rewarding read, there's at least one really cool fight scene in the pre-Golden Age stuff that will likely never be animated, and the stuff the 1997 anime cuts is pretty important to the other story arcs.

Do not watch the Golden Age movie trilogy or the 2016 anime as your first experience with Berserk. The former is made for fans and, while it doesn't cut the same things as the 97 anime, the cuts it does make are much, much bigger, essentially rendering it an incoherent greatest-hits of the arc. The latter is just outright terrible.

Isn't this that anime with all the rape and gore?

Yep. :smith: In spite of the above, Berserk is absolutely loving not for the faint of heart, and if I were to list content or trigger warnings for it, we'd be here for a very, very long time.

With that said, though, there's another side to Berserk's reputation, and it's that it handles all this poo poo remarkably well. It does inarguably make some missteps, but two out of the three main characters are explicitly victims of sexual violence and a whole loving lot of page time is devoted to the effects this has on their psyches. It's not exactly Goblin Slayer; in fact, the Berserk fandom tends to have serious beef with the Goblin Slayer fandom over this exact issue, because Goblin Slayer handles the subject matter much worse, and its fans have a habit of trying to use the widespread love and acceptance of Berserk as an excuse for GS' own particular brand of bullshit.

Isn't this that series with all the hiatuses?

Yep. Miura likes to take long breaks from doing Berserk. The fandom likes to joke that he's doing this to play Idolmaster, but in reality, it seems to be a mix of him changing up his drawing methods and building up a proper studio, consulting on adaptations of the series, and... playing Idolmaster.

Didn't the last thread get closed because of some creepy pedo poo poo?

Yes. Long story short, Kentaro Miura doesn't just draw Berserk, and occasionally when he puts it on hiatus he'll do an unrelated miniseries. These unrelated miniseries are generally staggeringly loving awful; the last one he did, Gigantomakhia, heavily involved piss drinking, and the current one, Duranki, has an absolutely uncomfortable amount of child nudity and handles its non-binary protagonist very poorly. A lot of Berserk fans attempt to give these series the benefit of the doubt because Berserk is just that good and nobody wants to believe that Miura is actually a skeevy dude, but... at best, his influences from medieval and Renaissance art resulted in some really loving bad optics, and at worst, he's an outright piss-drinking childfucker, and I'm not sure any of us really want to know for sure where he falls on that spectrum. This is the last that needs to be said on the issue. This is not a thread for Gigantomakhia or Duranki, and while I'm not Wark Say, talking about the latter will probably get you probated or banned due to all the naked children in it. While Berserk has a lot of rough-rear end content in it, none of the poo poo that sparked the drama was actually in Berserk itself.

So what can we talk about, if this series is constantly on hiatus and the author's side stuff sucks rear end?

There's a lot to talk about! Maybe you haven't read the manga or you're due for a reread; post your reactions! Maybe you have dank memes from /r/berserklejerk to share! Maybe you have some crazy fan theory about how Skull Knight is a time-traveling future version of Guts or something! Maybe, God willing, you actually have cool analysis of the art or writing to post! Just don't poo poo this thread up with pseudo-jokes about how hilarious you think it is that Guts was molested as a child or anything like that, and you'll already be soaring over the bar the rest of the Berserk fandom sets for discussion quality.

Is Guts off the boat?

Yes, he's off the boat, and the plot is actually progressing again. Rejoice.

Per explicit instructions from Wark Say, this is not a blanket-:nws: thread. If you're going to post an image from Berserk or something directly related to it, and that image has non-worksafe content, tag it and link it. If it's from Duranki, do not post it at all.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Nov 16, 2019

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Soul Reaver
Mar 8, 2009

in retrospect the old redtext was a little over the top, I think I was in a bad mood that day. it appears you've learned your lesson about slagging our gods and masters at beamdog but I'm still going to leave this av up because i think its funny

god bless
My feelings on Berserk are a bit complicated.

I loved the manga when I started it. And there's a reason there have been two anime adaptations of the Golden Age Arc - it's really good. The general sense of a dark, violent world is conveyed really well, and Guts as a protagonist is more than just a guy with a big sword.

On the other hand, I almost feel as though Muira has kind of... lost the plot?
I've read a bit over halfway through the mangas in one fairly big binge, and the tonal and thematic shifts are surprisingly rapid. We went from super (perhaps a bit too) edgy/dark fantasy to having a standard D&D adventuring party with a cute witch girl and a plucky young thief. Some characters, like Farnese, seem to change very radically from first introduction to where they are now, and not without the detailed character building that was evident during the Golden Age Arc.

I would say this has to do with Muira himself changing over the years. The slow schedule he keeps is actually a barrier to him keeping the tone consistent. He might no longer want to write a story that is quite so dark and melancholy as the one he started. But reading them back-to-back, the shift seems noticeable.

I could be wrong. He might just be setting up this sense of normality in order to kill off all the characters to underscore how everything sucks for Guts and how this cruel world has bad things happen to good people. But until that happens, it doesn't quite feel like the same story.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747
Honestly, I disagree; I think it's actually pretty clear at this point what the manga's overall theme is, and the current direction fits that perfectly. Berserk is a manga about trauma, and also about the healing process; about how total self-reliance is unhealthy, and you need support to properly grow past the horrible poo poo that's happened to you if you want to actually succeed and not just keep spiraling downwards.

It'll be a little cheesy if it goes full-on shonen ~power of friendship~ but I wouldn't be surprised if Guts' improved mental state and new reasons to live end up being crucial to him beating Griffith's rear end.

(And there's no way it's not ending with Guts and Griffith throwing down, and Guts winning. Anything else would feel like a cop-out after 30 goddamn years of this, and Miura's more or less said he realizes this.)

Professorjuggalo
Oct 22, 2019

by Cyrano4747

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

Honestly, I disagree; I think it's actually pretty clear at this point what the manga's overall theme is, and the current direction fits that perfectly. Berserk is a manga about trauma, and also about the healing process; about how total self-reliance is unhealthy, and you need support to properly grow past the horrible poo poo that's happened to you if you want to actually succeed and not just keep spiraling downwards.

It'll be a little cheesy if it goes full-on shonen ~power of friendship~ but I wouldn't be surprised if Guts' improved mental state and new reasons to live end up being crucial to him beating Griffith's rear end.

(And there's no way it's not ending with Guts and Griffith throwing down, and Guts winning. Anything else would feel like a cop-out after 30 goddamn years of this, and Miura's more or less said he realizes this.)

I got the same messages from it and it kills me all the more that miura hosed off to do what he's doing in spite of everything berserk is


I want to see the conclusion so badly but at the same time if its gonna take another 10 years to wrap up from those side projects why bother

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy
I stayed away from Berserk for a long time because it seemed way too dark and violent to me. When I finally got into it I was pleasantly surprised by the consistent theme of -hope- that runs through the manga. Even during Guts' lowest point, the Eclipse, there's a thread of hope that manifests yes in his and Casca's survival, but moreso I feel in Rickon's survival and how he was more or less spared from having to witness the full brutality of the Eclipse. During the Golden Age arc the hope manifests as the Band of the Hawk's core members and Guts and Casca's relationship. In the Dark Swordsman arc the hope is manifest as Puck.

The Conviction arc manifests hope in a variety of ways, such as Isidro and the sex workers, as well as the village girl's decision to persevere and move forward with her life. After that as the group gets together the hope manifests more consistently as the friends that Guts surrounds himself with.

I think it's likely that Berserk is going to end with a fight between Griffith and Guts, but I actually feel that it would be truer to the story if Guts walked away from the fight. In addition to the thread of hope there's also been a consistent theme of the rejection of vengeance. The Berserker armor was necessary to get Casca safely to Elf Island, but it's been consistently shown to be bad to feed the dog. Do NOT feed that dog that rages within. Now that Casca has been "restored", I see no reason why feeding the dog would now be okay to do.

The Skull Knight has already been swallowed by his vengeance. Let him handle Griffith, and be happy with Casca. Griffith is not worth their time.

Captain_duck
Dec 3, 2005

I swear nice bushes!

Viridiant posted:

I stayed away from Berserk for a long time because it seemed way too dark and violent to me. When I finally got into it I was pleasantly surprised by the consistent theme of -hope- that runs through the manga. Even during Guts' lowest point, the Eclipse, there's a thread of hope that manifests yes in his and Casca's survival, but moreso I feel in Rickon's survival and how he was more or less spared from having to witness the full brutality of the Eclipse. During the Golden Age arc the hope manifests as the Band of the Hawk's core members and Guts and Casca's relationship. In the Dark Swordsman arc the hope is manifest as Puck.

The Conviction arc manifests hope in a variety of ways, such as Isidro and the sex workers, as well as the village girl's decision to persevere and move forward with her life. After that as the group gets together the hope manifests more consistently as the friends that Guts surrounds himself with.

I think it's likely that Berserk is going to end with a fight between Griffith and Guts, but I actually feel that it would be truer to the story if Guts walked away from the fight. In addition to the thread of hope there's also been a consistent theme of the rejection of vengeance. The Berserker armor was necessary to get Casca safely to Elf Island, but it's been consistently shown to be bad to feed the dog. Do NOT feed that dog that rages within. Now that Casca has been "restored", I see no reason why feeding the dog would now be okay to do.

The Skull Knight has already been swallowed by his vengeance. Let him handle Griffith, and be happy with Casca. Griffith is not worth their time.

That would be nice. But this is berserk.

Which is why Griffith is going to attack elf island any chapter now, the stakes need to raised. One of the major quests has been completed and now the party needs motivation to go after the big bad, something that makes the entire party pissed off at Griffith. The upcoming Elf Island Massacre will be one thing but what really would motivate all of them is if one of the party died.

So i'm calling it, one member of the party will die "soon". Probably either Schierke or Farnese, as both can do magic now. The story needs a character to pull Guts back out of the berserker armor and at this point Farnese could probably do it if pressed, so only one is necessary for the plot. That makes me pretty sure that one of those 2 will be murdered by Griffith. But which one. Schierke makes sense since Farnese could take over Guts "armor-duty". However the emotional impact of Farnese dying is so huge it's off the charts. It would be one hell of a motivation for Casca. And Serpico would go nuts to. So that makes me lean towards Farnese dying. Also we get to see Punished Venom Schierke afterwards.

Or Miura could be the ultimate bastard and kill off Casca so soon after her "revival". I don't want to think about that but i can see him do it.

Anyway my money is on Farnese dying for maximum impact. I'm pretty sure this could happen "soon" chapter wise, like within 10 chapters. However at the current rate that might take 5 years.

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013

DON'T even joke about Casca dying. I want those two to have a happy end so bad, against all odds. :(

But, yeah, poo poo will probably go down on elf island soon. I kinda expect one of Griffith's knights to go down, likely dragon guy. Aaaand something big that kicks off the endgame. I expect Griffith to do something dastardly in person.

And the way this story has been going, I totally think Guts and Griffith will face off on SOMEHOW equal footing, but the battle will never be resolved - Guts will turn away eventually. Their confrontation has been WAY too hyped up, there's gotta be SOMETHING, even if it's not resolved. Nooooo, Rickert's gonna be the one who delivers Griffith to whatever his ultimate fate is going to be. He's been cooking up a badass revenge plot all this time, and now he learns being a techno ninja. Just you wait. :colbert:

Schubalts
Nov 26, 2007

People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.

Viridiant posted:

The Skull Knight has already been swallowed by his vengeance. Let him handle Griffith, and be happy with Casca. Griffith is not worth their time.

Skull Knight has shown that he is incapable of dealing with Griffith, and that was before the wall between reality and the spirit realm was shattered.

Thundarr
Dec 24, 2002


Casca isn't going to die. But at some point during the inevitable big fight, Void is going to show up and reveal that the Godhand actually has six fingers so there's room for one more. Guts will refuse but Casca will accept. And then everything will go to absolute poo poo for everybody, Griffith included.

snickothemule
Jul 11, 2016

wretched single ply might as well use my socks

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

Honestly, I disagree; I think it's actually pretty clear at this point what the manga's overall theme is, and the current direction fits that perfectly. Berserk is a manga about trauma, and also about the healing process; about how total self-reliance is unhealthy, and you need support to properly grow past the horrible poo poo that's happened to you if you want to actually succeed and not just keep spiraling downwards.

It'll be a little cheesy if it goes full-on shonen ~power of friendship~ but I wouldn't be surprised if Guts' improved mental state and new reasons to live end up being crucial to him beating Griffith's rear end.

(And there's no way it's not ending with Guts and Griffith throwing down, and Guts winning. Anything else would feel like a cop-out after 30 goddamn years of this, and Miura's more or less said he realizes this.)

The healing process, or the process of dealing with trauma is indeed such a major part of Berserk and the reason I enjoy this manga so much. After the eclipse, the scene with Guts running in the night, covered in bandages, screaming over everything that happened to moments later picking up a sword and fighting for his life is quintessentially Gut's existence. We see him flee from those who are important to him to a quest of vengeance and hatred, but by the time he comes to realise what is important to him, the nature of why he fights shifts and we get to watch him grow. He forms new relationships, becomes grateful for those around him and his little rag tag group form a connection which seems so different to his time in the Band of the Falcon.

Makes it all the more painful when we see his face after Casca's memories are restored :smith:

Even with all the terrible things he's done, it's not without context and exploring the nature of Guts emotional state, for a character that is very walled off with people he meets in his world, Miura's writing style lets us in quite a bit through his actions and inner monologue.

ETURNA
Jul 3, 2006

Narayan
Isn't the current hiatus supposed to be ending soon?

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good
man, if you're a berserk fan and you don't haven't been grabbing the omnibus releases, you owe it to yourself to go out and get them. i've just been going through the third release and the art pops so much more on the larger page it's ridiculous

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

ETURNA posted:

Isn't the current hiatus supposed to be ending soon?

From what I understand, this particular hiatus was so he could restructure his studio, hire more assistants, and train them to be able to do more on their own; it'll probably end when Duranki does, because that was supposed to be a training project of sorts iirc, and we'll hopefully get less hiatuses from that point.

Viola the Mad
Feb 13, 2010

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

man, if you're a berserk fan and you don't haven't been grabbing the omnibus releases, you owe it to yourself to go out and get them. i've just been going through the third release and the art pops so much more on the larger page it's ridiculous

I was hyped as hell as soon as I saw the omnibus release. I always wanted to collect the whole series but the tankobons feel so tiny when it comes to Miura's art. The omnibus is the version I've been waiting for ever since I started reading Berserk.

Zzulu
May 15, 2009

(▰˘v˘▰)
Berserk is cool and good and as old as me

I hope Guts seduces Griffith and they hate-sex it out

Tehran 1979
Jan 28, 2019

by Lowtax
Edit: Just nevermind

Tehran 1979 fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Dec 15, 2019

Arkhams Razor
Jun 10, 2009
Just start with the original anime. It and the movies cover the same story arc, but the former is better in every respect, aside from adapting out some key details from the original story. There are some good scenes in the films, but also some very rough CGI and early directorial decisions that can be fairly offputting to a first-time viewer. If you want any more after those two, you're better off biting the bullet and reading the manga.

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?
Old anime is cool but it leaves out Skull Knight.

titty fat pizza
Jan 1, 2013
I’ve been putting it off for 15 or so years but I finally watched the original anime and because I liked it so much all of the 2016 anime. Will there be any more? That seems like a hell of a gap between the two.

LordMune
Nov 21, 2006

Helim needed to be invisible.
Short answer, there are currently no known plans.

Long answer, hate to be that guy but you should really read the manga if you haven't. Both because animated Berserk is deader now than it's ever been, and also because the manga is an actual masterpiece (while the best adaptations top out at "very very good").

Literally Kermit
Mar 4, 2012
t

LordMune posted:

Short answer, there are currently no known plans.

Long answer, hate to be that guy but you should really read the manga if you haven't. Both because animated Berserk is deader now than it's ever been, and also because the manga is an actual masterpiece (while the best adaptations top out at "very very good").

Yeah, you really need to experience the glory of incredibly detailed two-page spreads the manga indulges in on a regular basis. There's just so much care put into them that it's hard for me to watch the CGI stuff.

Nipponophile
Apr 8, 2009

LordMune posted:

the manga is an actual masterpiece (while the best adaptations top out at "eh, kinda OK").

Mazed
Oct 23, 2010

:blizz:


I only recently caved and finally read the Berserk manga and yeah, it's true, it's loving incredible. Not always an easy read, but loving incredible.

Hands down best arc is Tower of Conviction. Best supporting cast, best villain, best development, concludes in the most Berserk way possible.
No interest in any of the animes, although the Golden Age movies seem to have had some actual care put in them, it just ain't Berserk without the meticulous Bosch-and-Goya-on-an-opium-bender art stylings.
Over time Miura has definitely changed the tone, but skillfully so, losing the excess edgelording but still keeping the bite and sense of foreboding consequences yet to occur.
Griffith is a bitch but his current crew is pretty excellent and the main thing that keeps his chapters tolerable.

Anyway, my metaphorical interpretation of the series is this:

Berserk is about how difficult it is to be a functioning human being.

You got your fantastical cases like Guts and Casca being too demon-haunted to just have a day off, you got your universal cases like Isidro dealing with the insurmountable mediocrity that is adolescence, and you got your very specific cases like Farnese "so maybe I'm a recovering pyrophiliac one-percenter with nothing to put on my resume but 'technically a knight that one time' but I TRY, OKAY"

(my favorite character is Farnese by miles)

lezard_valeth
Mar 14, 2016
I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Valkyrie Profile franchise but a character from it, Arngrim, is based on Guts.

Well, I just found out that the lovely mobile gacha game Valkyrie Profile Anatomia had a crossover event a couple years ago where you could summon Guts...and they used the lovely 2016/2017 anime render and headshot :doh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwJNH6BHIYo

oh well at least I can consume both "franchises that I love that have been constantly shat upon" in one single place

lezard_valeth fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Dec 29, 2019

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.
The best Berserk game is Dragon's Dogma

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


I bought volume 40 recently and drat dude can draw. I forgot how good it was. The apostle designs are so great.

Miss Mowcher
Jul 24, 2007

Ribbit

Zaphod42 posted:

The best Berserk game is Dragon's Dogma

:hai:

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!

Zaphod42 posted:

The best Berserk game is Dragon's Dogma

A true Zaphod opinion

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Harlock posted:

A true Zaphod opinion

lmao wtf?

I mean that post was clearly tongue-in-cheek but just lmao at somehow finding that offensive? ZZZorcerer even agreed hahaha.

I guess you haven't played DD?

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

Clearly Dark Souls is the best Berserk game.

I haven't played Dragon's Dogma.

Fantastic Flyer
Aug 9, 2017
Dragon's Dogma kicks rear end and even has Guts' and Griffith's armor (only in the base version thanks to licensing weirdness, unfortunately)

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Raxivace posted:

Clearly Dark Souls is the best Berserk game.

I haven't played Dragon's Dogma.

Dark Souls is the best Berserk game really. But DD has actual licensed arms and armor for guts and griffith in game.

The actual berserk games are limited by their time period and budget and while not all bad are definitely janky. Musou is pretty good but yeah, still janky.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Fantastic Flyer posted:

Dragon's Dogma kicks rear end and even has Guts' and Griffith's armor (only in the base version thanks to licensing weirdness, unfortunately)

The warrior's moveset also straight up uses some of guts' attacks from the manga as well. Not to mention there's one NPC who's basically caska with the serial number filed off, an optional side quest that's a loose reference to griffith's tryst with the princess as well as a forest witch girl who's hut looks very similar to the one in Berserk and is surrounded by golems. It's full of berserk references, and while the tone is all over the place, the gameplay is about as berserk as we'll probably ever get with tiny people facing down monsters that can, and will, just grab them and crush the life out of them on a whim.

Miss Mowcher
Jul 24, 2007

Ribbit
While Dark Souls is a better game, Dragon's Dogma still rules a lot and I think it has a more 'Berserk' feeling since you interact with towns, armies, royalty etc. and see the devastation of monsters in said places. Magic in DD is just ridiculous with the tornadoes and meteor showers and grappling/climbing monsters is really cool.

Dark Souls combat against big/non-humanoid monsters kinda suck and would improve a lot with some DD flavor. FROM is competent and after Sekiro I have high hopes for how they'll improve the gameplay in Elden Ring.

The Crotch
Oct 16, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

Nuebot posted:

The warrior's moveset also straight up uses some of guts' attacks from the manga as well.

It's a shame the warrior is the worst class in the game.

Vandar
Sep 14, 2007

Isn't That Right, Chairman?



2020 is the year I finally get around to reading Berserk.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

The Crotch posted:

It's a shame the warrior is the worst class in the game.

It really is. It does absurd damage, enough to delete anything you can actually hit! But in the time it takes to charge those attacks up, other classes will do just as much damage spamming their attacks, and with viable means to deal with fast and airborne enemies as well.

Vandar posted:

2020 is the year I finally get around to reading Berserk.

Gonna be a good year, then.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!

Zaphod42 posted:

lmao wtf?

I mean that post was clearly tongue-in-cheek but just lmao at somehow finding that offensive? ZZZorcerer even agreed hahaha.

I guess you haven't played DD?

I was agreeing with you

Good soup!
Nov 2, 2010

https://twitter.com/berserk_project/status/1222448417172930567?s=19

:holymoley:

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Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Say it with me now,

"It was far too large to be called bookends. Too big, too thick, too heavy, and too rough, it was more like a large hunk of iron."

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