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Look, you guys can argue all you want about the context, but on the screen, Meg gave a half-hearted apology and Marta hugged her and said, "It's okay." If that isn't forgiveness, I don't know what is. Furthermore, it may not have been in Marta's character to call out Meg, but Marta's character is written by a white guy. She exists to forgive Meg for what she did, and what Meg did was messed up. I don't mean this in an academic way, as an intellectual thought experiment or whatever. There are real, historical parallels to what Meg did. In the Jim Crow South, white people sought the aid of the KKK and racist government officials to steal the land from their black neighbors, eliminate business competitors, and enrich themselves. Germans under the Third Reich did the same to their Jewish neighbors. It's not an exaggeration to say that what Meg and her family threatened to do - turn someone in to ICE to extort Marta out of her inheritance - is the same as what those people did: use racist terrorism to satisfy their greed. The impulse to see a kindhearted victim of racism not do what they can to see justice done upon their terrorists is genuinely disturbing. edit: The final shot of the movie might be intended to be a devastating own on the Thrombys, but in reality Marta has simply refused to offer them charity. They have no claim to the money or the rest of the inheritance, and so Marta has deprived them of nothing. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 3, 2019 |
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Dec 3, 2019 23:05
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pospysyl posted:Look, you guys can argue all you want about the context, but on the screen, Meg gave a half-hearted apology and Marta hugged her and said, "It's okay." If that isn't forgiveness, I don't know what is. You don't know what forgiveness is. Edit: Sorry that was flippant, but in your second paragraph you go onto parallel Meg's actions with historic racism, but those actions were also written by the same white guy who wrote Marta's. That's why the context becomes important. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Dec 3, 2019 |
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Dec 3, 2019 23:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13mUFEXnB54
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Dec 3, 2019 23:25
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Guy A. Person posted:You don't know what forgiveness is. I'll put this to you: what idea is that sequence of events trying to convey? I can see the argument that it's showing Meg trying to coerce emotional labor out of Marta, but that doesn't really work. For one thing, Meg doesn't know that Marta's there to confess and give up the inheritance. For another thing, that idea isn't reinforced at all through the rest of the movie. Meg is presented fairly straightforwardly as an ally to Marta until her betrayal. Meg doesn't do anything else to manipulate Marta into giving her attention at all. My complete read on the situation is that Marta is willing to forgive Meg because she feels guilty about killing Harlan. That forgiveness, though, is never reversed when she finds out that she was innocent. The hard gaze shown in the last scene is shared between Jamie Lee Curtis and Marta, Meg is not the focus of the scene. That encounter between Marta and Meg is the last we see of them, and therefore how the relationship closes. quote:Edit: Sorry that was flippant, but in your second paragraph you go onto parallel Meg's actions with historic racism, but those actions were also written by the same white guy who wrote Marta's. That's why the context becomes important. I don't think Johnson actually realizes the historical parallels.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:27
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You really dont like Rian Johnson do you
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Dec 3, 2019 23:29
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It's super loving weird to me to psychoanalyze someone because you didn't like their movie
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Dec 3, 2019 23:31
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Again, the point in the film where that happens and who thinks what is happening at the time is super important to the context of that moment.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:33
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Yeah, the scene you're discussing is casting Meg as a pitiful character manipulating Marta's kindness. In the context of the scene, Meg when she thought she was down used private knowledge to try to gently caress over Marta. And now that she has, in her mind, successfully hosed over Marta she not only brushes off responsibility for her actions, but is asking for comfort from the person she is loving over. It also feels like you're holding up Marta to a weird standard. "The impulse to see a kindhearted victim of racism not do what they can to see justice done upon their terrorists is genuinely disturbing." Yeah man, you're not wrong... but that's nuance, baby. quote:edit: The final shot of the movie might be intended to be a devastating own on the Thrombys, but in reality... You're also misunderstanding the important choice that Blanc doesn't prescribe what she should do. Blanc isn't being depicted as the kind white savior-- It's important that the movie lets Marta be the one that nails the villain. He's being depicted as instructive to white people. It's Marta's choice. Blanc is correct for not giving his opinion even though he clearly has one. But I feel like a lot of folks are going to be dunking on you and I want to be clear that this is a movie about race that really only has one major character who is of color. And like... we can unpack that. But you're going all more-woke-than-though with a movie in a way that not only lacks nuance, but takes agency from Marta as an unique character, and not just a prop.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:35
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Sorry, when I say that Johnson is a white guilt liberal that wants to write a movie about racism but can't, I'm only basing that on the fact that he wrote a movie about racism that was bad. As for his political persuasion, I can only base that on this movie, his tweets, and his interviews about the mean chuds that didn't like his previous movies.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:35
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I’ll make sure Rian sends you your payment after this session is done.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:44
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pospysyl posted:Sorry, when I say that Johnson is a white guilt liberal that wants to write a movie about racism but can't, I'm only basing that on the fact that he wrote a movie about racism that was bad. As for his political persuasion, I can only base that on this movie, his tweets, and his interviews about the mean chuds that didn't like his previous movies. But never mind the fact that you diminish any agency that Ana de Armas and Katherine Langford have over the scene you refer to, you're really clearly just using real important topics as a cudgel and not engaging in actual criticism or debate.
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Dec 3, 2019 23:44
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pospysyl posted:I'll put this to you: what idea is that sequence of events trying to convey? I can see the argument that it's showing Meg trying to coerce emotional labor out of Marta, but that doesn't really work. For one thing, Meg doesn't know that Marta's there to confess and give up the inheritance. For another thing, that idea isn't reinforced at all through the rest of the movie. Meg is presented fairly straightforwardly as an ally to Marta until her betrayal. Meg doesn't do anything else to manipulate Marta into giving her attention at all. To answer the bolded question: Meg sees herself as a non-racist in contrast to her openly racist family, who in a moment of weakness did something bad and genuinely wants to be forgiven to reconcile her view of herself. In their earlier phone conversation, you can see her begin to rationalize her decision with her talking about the "fairness" of the will; she thinks she was ultimately justified but still doesn't want to be seen as just another racist member of her family. Marta's "forgiveness" isn't dependent on what Meg knows though. My argument here is that Marta gives a half-hearted "it's okay" because she is still in a dire situation and still sees herself at the mercy of the Thrombeys; she can't rebuke Meg when she knows she's about to go in the other room and reveal to them that she killed her grandfather and her mother's immigration status is still up in the air. Meg isn't openly being coercive but that doesn't mean the circumstances don't make it impossible for Meg's betrayal to be honestly addressed. Your read is that the forgiveness is effectively a two-way transaction: Marta has paid her forgiveness to Meg for Meg's forgiveness in return, but now that Meg's forgiveness isn't required it's an imbalanced equation. I don't think that's an accurate way to look at it at all. While everything is intertwined within the power dynamic of a wealthy family and their poor employee, it's not a direct one to one transaction. Marta doesn't need to "take back" her half-hearted acceptance of the half-hearted apology anymore than she needs to go back and individually rebuke every other family member: she doesn't need to educate Don Johnson on the way immigration actually works, she doesn't need to correct the little nazi on her status as an "anchor baby" and she doesn't need to tell Meg that it's actually not okay. Her silent judgement from above them all visually does that work
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Dec 3, 2019 23:52
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Timeless Appeal posted:Dude, Knives Out is a movie about race that can be unpacked because it was written by a white dude. Now who's psychoanalyzing who here? I'm not trying to cudgel or own anyone. I'm trying to do two things: 1) share my perspective on the movie and 2) try to convince people that what was depicted on the screen is the text of the movie. We can't have a substantive discussion without first agreeing on the text, and perhaps we'll never clear the hurdle. And as for the implication that I'm trivializing important topics to demean someone, I take offense to that. Part of the reason I have the perspective that I do is because I'm Latino. To an extent, the movie is about how I and my family are treated. I'd like to think that the reasons I dislike how racism was portrayed in the movie are not intrinsic to my perspective as a Latino, which is why I haven't brought it up. I imagine my perspective on the messaging of the movie might be different to Ana de Armas or Rian Johnson, but I don't think that makes me wrong. Guy A. Person posted:To answer the bolded question: Meg sees herself as a non-racist in contrast to her openly racist family, who in a moment of weakness did something bad and genuinely wants to be forgiven to reconcile her view of herself. In their earlier phone conversation, you can see her begin to rationalize her decision with her talking about the "fairness" of the will; she thinks she was ultimately justified but still doesn't want to be seen as just another racist member of her family. I actually like this a lot. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Dec 3, 2019 |
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Dec 3, 2019 23:54
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Rian Johnson is a cool and good filmmaker. This movie? Also cool and good. Even though it was easy enough to pick up on Chris Evans being the one WHODUNIT I was still pleasantly surprised to see how it all unfurled. Also, Daniel Craig's accent wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, lmao. It sounded way worse in the trailers, but came across a lot better in bigger servings. What surprised me the most weren't the twists, and what impressed me the most wasn't the tight rear end direction, but above it all was Ana de Armas' performance. I was already a fan of her because she's  but I was pretty wow'd by her in this movie. She was great, and I hope after her venture in Bond 25 she sees way more success.
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Dec 4, 2019 01:00
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Marta is intrinsically a non-confrontational and passive person as is shown in the very early scene when her mother insists her sister turn off the murder show and Marta does not care and literally says "Its ok". That scene is absolutely crucial in establishing her personality. She puts others before herself, sometimes for the sake of avoiding confrontation which is on display in numerous scenes, including the one with Meg and that selflessness is a huge, if not THE reason Harlan gives her control of his entire fortune. Shes selfless and kind even in the face of racism, which I guess you deem is not ok for a person to be and especially not ok for a white man to write, despite its accuracy to real life. Because as a Latino who has also faced racism from peers, I have acted in the same exact way she did in those moments. So gently caress me and Marta I guess?
AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Dec 4, 2019 |
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Dec 4, 2019 01:07
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Regarding Meg, Don't forget that Martha didn't get to watch the movie either. For Marta, in that moment, Meg was scared, sneaked out and made a call alone and then panicked and told or let it slip to Walt. She didn't get to see that it was Meg straight up re-allying with the family like the audience did. So she may not have had a burning hatred for her, or she could at least understand even if she was pissed. Alongside all the other factors mentioned above that would explain why she didn't pick a fight then and there. And even then, Marta's shift at the end of the call when she has to promise to take care of Meg was crushing. Her face and tone sell it so hard when she realizes that Meg just naturally assumed that Marta would ratfuck her. Because obviously Meg would do it if the tables were turned. I think the movie knew what it was doing. I can't imagine walking out thinking that Meg was a-ok. Also making the alt-right troll an utterly irrelevant weirdo was probably for the best and kind of fitting. He's not a player in the scene, he's just an ignored creep who's kind of along for the ride and pretending like he belongs.
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Dec 4, 2019 01:55
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Kind of disappointed by this honestly. I loved the subversion where we find out Marta 'killed' him and has to cover up her tracks but it lost its impact when it started to involve Ransom. I thought it was pretty obvious somebody in the family took the antidote and turns out the one guy that wasn't there did it. But on the other hand the little foreshadowing bits planted throughout were great. I was also expecting the characters to be way more campy and comedic. Like why would you cast Riki Lindhome for her to do nothing?
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Dec 4, 2019 05:06
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It's also worth pointing out that Meg is a child (she's, what, sixteen or seventeen?) with the entirety of That loving Family pressuring her and I think Marta realizes that. Of course Meg's going to blab that secret with everything going on, whether or not she's siding with the rest of her family or not.
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Dec 4, 2019 05:25
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Meg's in her fourth or fifth year of college. She is not a child.
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Dec 4, 2019 06:46
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21 with no sign of life skills is pretty close to being a child in every meaningful way. That's kind of a recurring thing with the family - they're all in some way suffering from arrested development because, due to never wanting for anything, they've never had to "grow up" and actually try to hack it by their own merits.
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Dec 4, 2019 06:50
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As a second generation Latine who watched this alongside my non-citizen partner, we did find the racial politics of the film kind of frustrating. It's just the sort of heavy-handed moralizing that I walk away from and feel like, oh, this is how woke white people pat themselves on the back about how non-racist they are while still mining the deportation of my people for laughs. It's not the worst thing in the world, and it's well-intentioned, but... it's also self-congratulatory in a way that's not fully earned. I do wish Lakeith Stanfield had more to do in the film. He's terrific even as limited straight man, but it's frustrating having the lone black character just stand off to the side in a movie so centrally focused on racism.
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Dec 4, 2019 09:08
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Sio posted:As a second generation Latine who watched this alongside my non-citizen partner, we did find the racial politics of the film kind of frustrating. It's just the sort of heavy-handed moralizing that I walk away from and feel like, oh, this is how woke white people pat themselves on the back about how non-racist they are while still mining the deportation of my people for laughs. It's not the worst thing in the world, and it's well-intentioned, but... it's also self-congratulatory in a way that's not fully earned. Honestly this is the sort of take I came away with and I understand more. I dont entirely think Rian was writing this thinking hes making some powerful statement about racial politics and hes looking to be celebrated for it. I think he generally created an interesting social scenario that created a uniquely engaging set up for a murder mystery, ultimately with a message thats more laughing at white political stereotypes then it is supporting Latino immigrants. But I do get the sense a lot of people as a result will walk away thinking more highly of themselves than they should and not really recognizing or reflecting on the fact that they are probably way way more similar to many of the family members than theyre willing to admit. Its not quite as biting as I hoped it would be in that regards with how it set up the family in the beginning.
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Dec 4, 2019 21:38
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This movie loving rips. I thought I would lose interest when Marta spills her guts to Captain America but then it just keeps going. Goddamn I want to watch it again even though I'm certain I picked up on everything the first time. Edit: When MAGA dad casually handed his plate to Marta, the whole audience booed. It made me so happy. Inzombiac fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 4, 2019 |
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Dec 4, 2019 23:13
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Thankfully for her, she didn't spill the beans to Capn America. Except right at the end.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:23
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I love how the movie uses Chris Evans. He can't be playing a complete douche bag, can he? Hey he's not totally bad? Bwahaha never mind.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:58
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Laughing Zealot posted:I love how the movie uses Chris Evans. He can't be playing a complete douche bag, can he? Haven't seen it yet, but figure after what, a decade or so of playing superhero boy scout CA he's been eager to play somebody genuinely awful. It's been a while but I recall him giving good douche in Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.
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Dec 5, 2019 00:03
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Amazing movie. I loved it. The donut monologue, the subversion of tired twists, the set design, everything.
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Dec 5, 2019 02:23
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Wittgen posted:Meg's in her fourth or fifth year of college. She is not a child. Is she meant to be that old? I felt like she was still supposed to be a teenager. It's possible I missed a line stating how far into school she was.
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Dec 5, 2019 03:33
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Polaron posted:Is she meant to be that old? I felt like she was still supposed to be a teenager. It's possible I missed a line stating how far into school she was. Harlan says something about having paid for her school for four years, doesn’t he?
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Dec 5, 2019 03:35
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I loved the movie. Can't say much that hasn't been said already. The movie got the details so right when it came to technology. Of course Harlan would use a 15 year old laptop with XP. Of course his security system wouldn't have been updated since the mid-80s, when he bought the place. (All those Tandy boxes.) I didn't pay too much attention to the family's iPhones, but I'm sure they were the top of the line for the time the movie was filmed. I did notice Marta's cracked BLU phone though, which is spot on. It all felt so natural. So much better than if this were a Sony movie and everyone would distractingly have whatever Sony's current flagship phone and laptop is.
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Dec 5, 2019 05:30
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I like the movie a lot. It pulled off the difficult trick of making the family very unlikable without being total caricatures, other than the trump dad, nazi kid and #resist grifter mom. It works especially well because you think that ransom is like that too, yeah an rear end in a top hat, but not the total sociopath he’s made out as, and then nooopppe
Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Dec 5, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2019 05:49
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Here's my question, since Fran only sent Ransom the header of the toxicology report, how did Marta's confession convince Ransom that Marta had committed no crime? Didn't Marta still think she had accidentally killed Harlan, just like Ransom intended with the switched medication?
MaoistBanker fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Dec 5, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2019 08:23
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MaoistBanker posted:Here's my question, since Fran only sent Ransom the header of the toxicology report, how did Marta's confession convince Ransom that Marta had committed no crime? Didn't Marta still think she had accidentally killed Harlan, just like Ransom intended with the switched medication? Ransom didn’t switch the medication, just the labels. So when Marta told him she gave Harlan the morphine, he knew she’d actually given him the incorrectly labeled other medicine. EDIT: Wait, I’m slightly wrong. Ransom does switch the medications, but the point works either way. He’d have discovered it when he went back to get the bag during the funeral either way. oneforthevine fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Dec 5, 2019 |
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Dec 5, 2019 08:30
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oneforthevine posted:Ransom didn’t switch the medication, just the labels. So when Marta told him she gave Harlan the morphine, he knew she’d actually given him the incorrectly labeled other medicine. Yeah, I totally got this right after I clicked post. Marta’s confession as to how she just knew it was the right one and then being confused by the label confirms that’s how Ransom knew Harlan was injected with the correct medication.
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Dec 5, 2019 08:47
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pospysyl posted:Look, you guys can argue all you want about the context, but on the screen, Meg gave a half-hearted apology and Marta hugged her and said, "It's okay." If that isn't forgiveness, I don't know what is. Marta is naive, if you have a problem with her characterization that’s different. I feel like you picked the “bad Get Out thesis” first and refuse to deviate from that. I will agree that lakeith stanfield isn’t given a lot to do in this and casting him might be inviting the get out comparison but gonna have to disagree
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Dec 5, 2019 10:42
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Detective No. 27 posted:I loved the movie. Can't say much that hasn't been said already. Marta's sister's Chromebook is the one that came free with my phone.
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Dec 5, 2019 10:50
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Sio posted:As a second generation Latine who watched this alongside my non-citizen partner, we did find the racial politics of the film kind of frustrating. It's just the sort of heavy-handed moralizing that I walk away from and feel like, oh, this is how woke white people pat themselves on the back about how non-racist they are while still mining the deportation of my people for laughs. It's not the worst thing in the world, and it's well-intentioned, but... it's also self-congratulatory in a way that's not fully earned. I think if one wanted to attack the film it would be saying Marta is basically written as a saint instead of a person since she's mostly a cipher for everyone else's agenda, including Blanc. I do think it's a wrong interpretation for posp to say the family is "absolved" in any way. If one were angry the family didn't explode like in another movie okay, but that's not this movie
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Dec 5, 2019 11:00
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Just got out of this movie, and thoroughly enjoyed it. A bit of a random question about an early scene for you film-heads out there: What was the significance (if any) of Blanc's piano key tapping in the initial interrogation? Or more specifically, was there any purpose, either symbolic or in-fiction (e.g. in response to a particular kind of statement), beyond making his presence known to the family/audience and/or throwing them off their stories?
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Dec 6, 2019 15:27
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I'm really looking forward to seeing this movie. Still, it's going to be weird watching Ana de Armas play (presumably) the next Bond gently caress-bunny in No Time to Die after her role with Craig in this movie.
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Dec 6, 2019 17:34
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Roach Warehouse posted:Just got out of this movie, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I need to see it again, but I think Blanc was doing that every time the detectives got off topic.
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Dec 6, 2019 17:37
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