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kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



forking the buttcoin thread is only proper and natural

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kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



someone read the profile about gerard cotten and said "hey i bet i can pull that off too"

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



semen_thrower writes "scammer!" and with such an authority weighing in how can anyone hope to escape justice?

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



pretty much everything on a tax form has a particular legal definition, so pulling up one of their memos, it describes a virtual currency as "a digital representation of value that functions as a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value other than a representation of the United States dollar or a foreign currency." (Rev. Rul. 2019-24).

in theory, this describes everything which may be in one or another exchanged for goods or services, so, ah, that makes it super broad! like steam hats no, because it's not a "unit of account", but conceivably that would include things like mmo money (world of warcraft gold is already exchangeable for blizzard bucks which you can buy stuff with*). i expect this to be narrowed in the future but yeah, that might include things of value that someone can prove is an exchange of value which can reliably denominated in a "real" currency.

*arguably you'd incur liability for income upon conversion to a good received that had a basis value of zero if you used gold you created within the game because all the stuff blizz sells is denominated in dollars and it's that conversion which should trigger the liability but no one at the irs is going to chase after you for not declaring the $45 of wow subscription time you didn't pay taxes on

kw0134 fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Dec 8, 2019

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



CampingCarl posted:

how does the irs (or other tax orgs) deal with such things from before they were defined/taxed or that changed? for example* if you had a large amount of WoW gold from before you could trade it for blizzard bucks, is that taxed and when? im curious how all that gets worked out since there is a lot of virtual currency that isnt blockchain, whether they say so or not. i can see a lot of idiots trying to pull the 'its not a currency, its an ingame token' and getting burned so there is that to look forward to.

*hypothetically, asking for a friend
we'd probably treat it the same way we'd treat buttcoin: you created the object when it had zero value so back in 2010 you had nothing to declare. then you discover that butts are worth $texas each and then you get someone to pay you $texas for each one without being shot in the process. good news, you have a capital gains to report: your butts which were accounted for with zero dollars are in fact worth $texas. $texas - zero is equal to a tax bill of $texas times the current long-term capital gains tax rate of 15-20% depending on your other income. yay!

it's usually the transaction that ends up being taxable. yeah, in theory if you find a gold nugget in your backyard you're supposed to say "hey i found a gold nugget ex nihilio, charge me the customary rate for my bracket, tia" in practice you're going to say "i found this nugget at uhhhhhhhhh jan 1 2019 and sold it for $1200 an ounce to 'reputable jeweler' on dec 31 2019, that's my tax liability. no totally true, i found it this year and not a few decades ago when the penalty for not declaring the thing would be worth ten times the actual income" and the irs really can't and won't do anything about it unless you're an idiot that paraded the object around town and can be proven beyond all doubt with a google search that you acquired it earlier.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



CampingCarl posted:

i wonder how the definition of virtual currency will get narrowed. there are lots of things that aren't really a unit of account but in practice are treated as such or are easily exchanged for something that is. then there were places that let you buy/sell hats with bitcoin which i imagine is something that should get taxed at some point in the process. i am really curious how all that works if there is another thread on the topic outside of bitcoiners getting mad at men with guns.
a good starting point would be the purpose of the token in question, and not merely taking the creators' word for it. bitcoin describes itself as a currency, so there's that. ethereum describes itself as a token for exchange and to do other techbro messianic bullshit, so it fits. dogecoin was described as a joke but since on the whole it traded like a speculative vehicle with a settled value at any given moment in time, then yeah. the primary purpose of wow gold is to pay repair costs when you die in the game and also buy fake gear that can't really be traded, so we'd exclude it. that should narrow it down reasonably well while still catching a pretty broad net. anythign else would be figured out on a case by case basis, but that's usually how it works anyway in the real world. consider a gift of a gold ring, versus being paid in gold krueggerrands versus buying a gold certificate entitling you to a bar of the stuff stored in a vault somewhere; all three would be treated differently even though the thing giving it value is exactly the same.

the thing is the irs is actually pretty good about this, and if it weren't for the deliberate hamstringing by republicans there'd be little question this would be sorted out reasonably well.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



CampingCarl posted:

i understand in general if it walks like a :honked:and talks like a :honked: it will get taxed as a :honked:, no matter how much you say it is a :gerard:. my mind is more on the topic of things where the intended purpose of the token is not a currency or store of value but end up being one. some steam items are good examples, those vaporware games that promised to put your items on a blockchain so evil admins couldnt take your items could be another if they existed. your example of the gold items being treated differently confuses me a bit on this unless i misunderstood, as i would think in general if the value is the same the irs would tax them the same.
the majority use case is what i'm aiming at. yeah, you can use tf hats to launder money or whatever, but so can any number of things which purport to have value, so the average gamer wouldn't need to declare them. but if you somehow make a bunch of money off them, that's income and it would be treated as such (in much the same way that any income-producing activity would be). remember at the end of day, you're trying to get people to declare the things that would let the irs go "yeah, that's income, gimme". lots of trivial things are theoretically taxable but are not because, well, they're trivial. (example: i had to declare the $15 of interest my escrow account made, and was taxed $2.10 for it, because the bank revealed it to the irs. otherwise it would not have been worth the effort to track down.) by making wannabe daytraders declare their crypto holdings the irs is saying they got their eyes on you. and of course those things actually have to have value; vaporware games that throw in "blockchain" aren't a target because they're illiquid "assets" of no real worth to anyone outside a restricted circle of users.

the example of gold is to illustrate that you can have gold be non-taxable (because it's a gift, and would count against lifetime totals), or as straight wages, or as investments which may have favorable tax treatment. you'd think that they should be all the same, but i can give real examples where they are not.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



surprise, when you don't have a case you keep saying "but but oag is mean" which really doesn't pass muster

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



...! posted:

bitfinex sure does use some interesting arguments there, like "no one has the right to tell us not to run a fractional reserve" and "everyone who gets involved with cryptocurrency already understands that this poo poo is unregulated and that they could lose all their money at any time. that's just how poo poo works in cryptoland; don't try to hold us to a higher standard than that" :thunk:
part of is the fact this is a very preliminary stage, it's not a trial but rather a bunch of legal skirmishing meant to let bitfinex wriggle from under the oppressive boot of the ny attorney general so that they don't have to make any defenses on the merits

because there aren't any and if they don't stop it procedurally they are kind of super hosed

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



and the judge was, in the last ruling, writing "I'm not saying he's a liar but his balls have been immolated from his pants being aflame."

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



yes, congratulations, you've included the internet in your transactions scheme but what does that have to do with anything except include isis and pedophiles

wait i think i answered it myself, nvm

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



"yes I don't have this info, watcha gonna do, huh copper??"

"wait stop hitting me your breaking the nap owww oww that was my spleen ahhh"

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



if only india adopted the corpsechain then we can be certain of cotten's death

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



how do I get in on the nocoiner cabal, is there an application process or what

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



Suspicious posted:

Higher standards means "is pro bitcoin" to them.
look when cointelegraph tells you that shitcoinXLturboultra is going to take off any second now that's a reliable source don't loving say otherwise you statist shill

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



at some point you should use your bully pulpit to publicly beat the poo poo out of a bunch of dumbasses who can't stop talking about things they have no clue about

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



reminder that the lightning network claims that the nodes will do "networking" and discover routes to every destination based on local knowledge without any hierarchy/trust/centralization because it implicitly believes in magic.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



finally, a use case for blockchain

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



it brings ruin even if you don't buy butts, witness the fact we're still on this forum talking about it after ten years

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



hmm yes i'm sure the vast body of people are thinking about monetary policy and not, you know, whether they're gonna starve because that money is purely a construct on a central bank's balance sheet and has zero impact on their lives

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



but if i couch it in a bunch of weasel words tied to complex topics that i don't actually understand then it's a foolproof way to get rubes like seraph to praise me

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



divabot posted:

How badly did trying to run an Internet magical money tree go for Telegram? Well, Telegram is now $500m in hock to the Russian totally-not-mafia.
murder futures are going up Up UP!

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



first you lose all your money when the actual security falls through the floor
then you lose all your money when the exchange holding your security gets "hacked"
trying to make up for lost time you invest in similar securities that are the same except the serial numbers are filed off, and lose all your money
then you lose all your money for a fourth time when you keep to the original security by do it via shady operators on ridiculous margins
finally a derivative of the secondary token you're trying to trade is designed to efficiently pump money right from your wallet into theirs
thus is the apotheosis of the financial markets as experienced by the retail side is realized

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



the whole wirecard situation is absolutely bonkers. i hadn't heard about its crypto operations but if so loving lol.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



tether money printer goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



surely being the subject of a massive scam is going to cause bitscones to go up up Up UP!

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



Stolfi never fails to entertain.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



let's be honest, when has bitcoin not been at the penis stage

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



maybe, and hear me out, libertarianism in america is a lie by intellectually vacuous people drawn from the dominant socioeconomic class seeking to preserve their privileges

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



to be fair, the book doesn't take off until that point because you have to spend a whole bunch of pages explaining concepts like "blockchain" and "bitcoin" and "the internet", as well as a bunch of fairly narrative-stopping biographical sketches. like you can definitely strengthen the book by examining the whole project through the lens of libertarian tech bros doing libertarian tech bro things and given the current climate the idea that these people should not be allowed to operate without supervision will resonate. but the book itself doesn't really have a narrative until you make that point.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



Shame Boy posted:

oh no


just hanging out with my thai girlfriend in my rich guy boat where laws don't apply, nothing to see here
"pioneer" in seasteading in the same way that the homeless drunk camping in the overpass is a sovereign freeholder of an allodial land title

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



ships not in use are a floating liability that are doing their best to become underwater liabilities. the fact they now are underwater does not reduce your liability and in fact may increase it. any idiot who gets a ship without figuring out how to make it at least revenue neutral deserves everything they get, which is why i'm super excited to see what happens to this thing in six months

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



reporting for dickpic

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



if applied to the suckers' bank balance who "invest" in this then it makes perfect sense

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



it's almost as if the fundamental premise of buttcoin -- a trustless economy -- is lunacy and the only way to function in a society that includes other people is to have faith and credit in the other actors of your system

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



I'm pretty sure these figures were not rigorously audited and came out because of the pending NY lawsuit against tether, where one of the responses says "we pinky swear we have beeelllioonss of dollars, almost enough for 75% of all tethers" which is not truly exonerating AND also highly suspect since it's as far as anyone can tell still just a figure pulled from their rear end.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



he looks so sad, please adopt and rename to fiat

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



so what's a "reliable source" in crypto land, the words of ayn rand, the holy white paper by satoshi (pbuh), the gigabytes of child porn on the immutable blockchain...?

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



bitcoin, the lovechild of libertarianism and tech-bro utopianism (which is perforce male dominated, largely white, and heavily capitalistic) will result in the destruction of capitalism.

okay.

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kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



"when the masses have realized that they have been lied to, they will give up what little material wealth they have to embrace the new world order which offers even less than what they have now."

--karl marx, at a tedx talk near reno

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