Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Shut up Meg posted:

Just FYI, that was fatal.

The video right under claims not. View of it from the ground.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

gently caress look up the early vertical piston monstrosities you see on the old pre-dreadnaught battleships. Basically just giant loving pistons mounted in cavernous engine rooms. All their attachments assumed that the ship would at no time exceed a certain list.

A few of them sank and rolled at Jutland and it’s known that there were survivors in the mechanical spaces for a time. The really lucky ones were scalded alive as the engines ripped free or crushed by them rolling around.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Hell, visit the USS Texas and you can see one in all its hugeness.


This isn't actually known, just FYI. It's assumed to be true based on the experiences of engineers and stokers of HMS Warrior, which was shot full of holes and sank after the battle from progressive flooding. In fact it's very unlikely to be true since the big ships with vertical triple-expansion engines lost at Jutland besides Warrior were either sunk by magazine explosions (Defence and Pommern) or turned into a hellish floating inferno before sinking (Black Prince). In either case the engineers were probably killed instantly from the overpressure shock sent through the hull by the magazine explosions or suffocated by flame and smoke.

Ah. My bad then, the couple of things I read that talked about it represented it as fact.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Captain Foo posted:

Also I don't think responders have the legal authority to pronounce death, so

IIRC it's this. They can't pronounce on them, but you also don't want a EMT or fireman or whatever putting themselves at risk of being injured if it's very clear to all bystanders that there is no head attached to the torso.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Not just sounding that kid was into inflation iirc which is never safe

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Renegret posted:

The most bizarre thing to me when I moved to the burbs is that all the EMTS and firefighters here are volunteers.

I don't know why you would volunteer to work the worst job in the world, for free, but apparently there's a poo poo ton of suckers willing to do it.

My understanding is that in some areas it's basically a requirement to get a job doing that. One of my wife's relatives is a firefighter in the south and after he finished his training he pretty much had to do a couple years of volunteer work to get enough of a resume to get hired at a real fire department.

Which is pretty hosed up.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Aramoro posted:

Cannons were for attacking fixed positions. Like Mons Megg was a 19" cannon (Cannonball weighing 150kg) with a muzzle velocity of something like 300 m/s and could fire possibly 3000m. So the cannon is really far away, the cannonball is going really fast, it's not trying to hit you just the building you are in.

This is broadly the case in the early days of cannon (pre-1600 or so) but by the time you get to the middle of the seventeenth century you see “light” (relative to siege guns) cannon being used on the battlefield effectively. Gustsvus Adolphus was running around loving poo poo up like that in the thirty years war, for example.

As for why everyone is clumped together, it’s a command and control issue. The only way to effectively move 1000 men is to have them physically together and the only way to effectively control numerous groups like that at once is via flag and courier. You do have smaller groups of men operating independently but these are skirmishes and what we today would consider scouts and snipers. Enough to harass the enemy but not enough to really do the job alone.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

TorpedoFish posted:

Important Flughafenfuckling update: Berlin Brandenburg Airport may actually open in 2011 2012 2014 2016October 2020!

Or...not.

The first time I went to Germany was in 2003. I remember the planning for the giant new Berlin airport being a huge deal and everyone talking about how maybe by 2010 you would be able to fly non-stop transatlantic into Berlin without routing through Frankfurt.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

EvenWorseOpinions posted:

Did Berlin Tegel not exist back then? I flew direct from Chicago o'hare when I went

Tegel was there. The issue is that Tegel is loving old and pretty restricted about what size and weight aircraft it can take. All the times I've flown in I took some big widebody to either London, Spain, or Frankfurt and then transferred to a narrow body for the flight in. Not saying you didn't, but the ability to process bigger aircraft was a big talking point for getting a new airport.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Pile Of Garbage posted:

Cheers cuzz. Hope it's not a giant military wank fest (It is isn't it).

Depends on what you consider a wank fest. Lots of chat about military topics but it’s not wall to wall flag wavers or anything. Lots of critical commentary on poo poo like procurement plus people arguing about policy and Cold War history.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

LifeSunDeath posted:

I loving hate these types of ladder. I'd take standing on a loving table over dealing with these finger pinching pieces of poo poo.

My left thumb clicks whenever I make a fist from my dad closing one of those fuckers on my hand when I was 12.

. . . I still don’t think my mom knows.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

mostlygray posted:


I miss him. Best driver I've ever known. Feel free to talk poo poo about other carriers but it doesn't go ground without Brown. UPS is my jam.

I’ll talk poo poo about UPS all day long. I worked a summer slinging boxes into trucks at a package center. Just one for reasons to become abundantly clear.

This was in the south. In the humid as gently caress hot summer. The trucks were baking in the sun all day. Shift started at 4pm. We sweated so much in those tin cans that I would come home with my cotton shirt stiff as waxed canvas from sweat.

Hypothetically we were allowed to take a break every so often (forget the exact schedule - this was back in 07 so it’s been a while) plus water breaks whenever we needed them. The reality was that we were heavily discouraged from stopping at all least poo poo slow down. Get fresh air and more water when the truck is full was the order of the day. We were told to take a water bottle into the truck and keep it near the back so we could get sips as needed but lol in that heat (seriously it was north of 120 and humid) you sweat so much you would go through a while nalgen in half an hour.

Eventually I got heat stroke and collapsed. A box I was lifting up fell on my head on the way down. I ended up in the hospital with severe dehydration and a concussion. I don’t remember anything between stepping into the truck and waking up in the ambulance. The following things happened:

1) my supervisor lied to the nurses and claimed to be my brother so he could try to get my drugged, concussed rear end to sign some papers. I still have no idea what they were. My wife showed up shortly after and had some words for him and the nurses.

2) they tried to blame me. Said that I must have been using “improper lifting technique.” Insisted that if I hadn’t taken breaks or drunk enough water that was on me.

3) they hosed with my worker’s compensation. I got sent all the hospital bills (ambulance, ER, two nights hospital stay because I was dehydrated enough that they were worried about my heart) and then they gave me a bogus worker’s compensation number. Like, I couldn’t do the paperwork because it had no where near the right number of digits. They didn’t return my calls about that and it took a letter from a lawyer I happened to be drinking buddies with.

4) the quack physicians assistant they sent me to insisted that the hospital stay was unnecessary because I wasn’t dehydrated. In her words, and I get a laugh out of this from every Dr I tell it to, “it’s scientifically impossible for you to have become dehydrated after only two hours of work.” She also claimed I wasn’t concussed based on examining me two weeks later. They used these diagnoses to try and deny that I needed that hospital stay because it clearly couldn’t have been work related injuries. Again, had to involve a lawyer and I spent a loving lot of time on the phone with the hospital and the insurers. The claims were obvious bullshit but I’m sure the idea was to make it hard for me to progress and get me to just fold and pay. A lot of thr people working that job also have dick all idea what their rights are. Meanwhile I had collection agents calling about my medical bill. This went on for close to a year.

5). They never sent me my last paycheck. After the previous bull poo poo I just wrote that one off because frankly I was happy I eventually got them to pay the hospital poo poo and didn’t end up on the hook for five figures of medical debt.

So, yeah. gently caress UPS. I’m enough of a lazy hypocrite to use them but goddamn have I seen the lovely side of how they can treat the bottom rung of employees.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Yeah it was a right to work state. We had no union at all as a result. There was one long term employee who was supposedly an “employee representative” or something. She’s the one who told everyone all the on paper company rules about how we were entitled to a break every X minutes and it was always OK to get a drink, and then the supervisor would come through during the shift and tell you not to stop because boxes are backing up. He’d aways lean on the most macho posturing possible, yelling about how anyone slacking was a lazy pussy letting down the team.

Other fun things about that place: lots of recently ex-con labor afraid to rock the boat. Lots of non-pot drug users and I’m pretty sure one of the low level supervisors was dealing to employees.

Losing that job when I got hurt (the company absolutely cut me over it) was ultimately a very good thing even though it caused some financial problems in the short term.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Is this the thread where we were talking about lasers?

Because someone in the TFR secret santa thread just used a laser to open his present.

(He actually looks like he knows what he's doing so not really OSHA, just funny)

The Eyes Have It posted:

Obeying the message, I decided it's time to open things up! But... how?



A quick prayer to Santana that nothing inside is too flammable (and if it is, to make sure my fire suppression gear is working) and away we go




Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.


What am I looking at here?

I mean, an exploded car, but what did that?

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

PetraCore posted:

Those types of stairs take up a lot less horizontal space. The downside is you need to be used to them.

OK, but at that point why not just have a ladder? That would probably be safer because you have your hands on a ladder. That monstrosity doesn't even have handrails.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Yooper posted:




This is how a superfund site is born. Some context, this is the stuff they made the movie Erin Brockovich about. It's doubtful he was storing dilute solution, so it's likely inside of his building (and in the ground water table) is contaminated with the full strength stuff.

More photos of the actual operation.



That's the "sludge" drying in the basement. Note the industrial strength box fan assisting the process. Sludge is likely a mixture of lead chromate, lead, hex chrome, and god knows what else they put into the tanks.



The lab.



The plating operation itself. Note the steam rising up from one of the tanks. This place was operating when these photos were taken.



Yes, the center tank says cyanide. Somewhere buried in all those chemicals is probably leaking drums of potassium cyanide.



Finally we tour the open air chemical storage area.

I'm not sure how a business can do this. Where I work (in Michigan) we have a few thousand gallons of similar rather nasty chemicals and OSHA, EGLE, and the EPA visits at least once a year.

edit : From the court case :

This is from a while back, but it turns out I've got family living near this and they're wondering what the solution is. Specifically, is this a thing that can be taken care of with water filtering? I know there are some high end water filters that claim they'll do lead. What about distilled water?

edit: The poo poo in the spill specifically. THe chromium.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Platystemon posted:

Thanks. I knew there were exceptions in the rules of evidence large enough to drive a (Swift) truck through and that that probably fell under one of them.

It’s weird for the FAA to falsely hide behind the rules of evidence. Maybe they’re envisioning someone other than the pilot as the videographer, but so what? Find who the videographer is and subpoena them. Isn’t safety investigation the FAA’s job?

I know nothing of the specifics, so this is just the basest of conjecture, but the whole thing smells a lot to me of a under-funded, over-committed agency trying to put resources where they'll do the best. This guy is probably just going to kill himself and whoever is dumb enough to get in an airplane with him. Meanwhile, if they investigate it that's investigators who are chasing after him rather than looking for the hosed poo poo that could drop an airliner. There are plenty of dumb little regional airlines who catch poo poo from the FAA for unsafe bullshit. Google around about Spirit Airlines for a good example. The last biggie I heard of is they had engine parts rain down on part of Detroit. Not everything they have to deal with is that extreme, but there's a lot of ongoing investigations of dumb poo poo.

Kind of like how the IRS doesn't even bother investigating tax fraud if it's below a certain threshold.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Icon Of Sin posted:

Didn’t give a poo poo about my mom’s fingernail, that’s for drat sure :v:

My question would be whether or not the gloves give enough resistance to let you jerk back in time.

Losing a fingernail sucks. Losing a finger sucks more.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

some .gif editing wizard need to animate a stream of urine coming down from the cameraman who's feet we see at the edge of the hole.

It would be goon_advice.gif.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Phanatic posted:

Surprised the driver of the car did because I'd expect the other bikers to just drag him out of the wreck and beat him to death right there.


Not to mention there are a lot of pistols that don't have safeties. No safeties on revolvers, because 12-14 lbs isn't going to be inadvertently applied to that trigger in most reasonable circumstances.

Modern designs might not have active safety levers but most have a host of passive safety devices. Your typical modern revolver has a transfer bar so the hammer isn’t resting directly over a live cartridge, for example.

A lot of other designs incorporate safeties that are disengaged as part of the normal function of the weapon. Glock triggers being the most famous example. If your finger is on the trigger (which presumably means you want to shoot - keeping your finger off the trigger when you aren’t is fundamental gun safety) it activates the trigger safety so the gun will fire. If it isn’t that safety stays in place so dropping it or getting the side of the trigger snagged on gear or something won’t fire it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Platystemon posted:

Koalas are like pandas, if pandas were much smaller and were marginally better at reproduction in captivity.

But with somehow even dumber digestive tracts and way more STDs.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

holy poo poo the lady sitting in the road after that blew over :stare:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

zedprime posted:

Opt in fire protection is one of those ideas I can't even fathom. It's intrinsically social, fires spread. Poor socialized fire protection has leveled cities. You can be the freest market motherfucker around and should still think "oh hmm maybe we should socialize fire protection." You can't buy an absence of fires on a market, I don't even understand how it becomes a question.

For the same reason that people don't think they need health insurance: "I'm careful, I'm responsible, I'm not going to be the idiot who burns down his house."

People in this thread are aware that poo poo just happens. Squirrels chew up your electrical. A kid does something dumb. You have a human moment of failing and gently caress up with a grease fire and make it way worse.

There's a certain sort of person who believes that pretty much everything bad in the world can be prevented by being smart or clever enough, that all misfortune is ultimately deserved because the person was dumb or negligent.

This is dumb and idiotic, but I've met way too many people who don't think they need liability insurance because they're too safe a driver to hurt anyone or don't need health insurance because they're young and a non-smoker etc.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

psh you all didn't see the safety buckets (?) sitting behind his heels. You can see the tail end of the fire-snake slap one as it gets sucked into wherever it's going, protecting his ankles.

Clearly this is a safety oriented workplace.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Platystemon posted:

Novelty torsion dominoes

Don't doxx my pornhub history.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Wasabi the J posted:

Strange, I thought Russians were usually on the giving end of air disasters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwLiBBQouLY

Holy gently caress that park.

They stopped lubricating the ride cables and started putting corn starch on instead to reduce slippage. :aaa:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

That’s one way to sand a road.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Plastik posted:

Pre-check exists specifically so that the upper-middle-class frequent flyers who could raise enough of a stink about the TSA and their total failure to do anything other than make air travel expensive and inconvenient are never truly inconvenienced enough to do so.

And why, pray tell, are you opposed to pre-9/11 levels of airport security? The Secure Cabin concept and air marshalls on flights are the only things that came from 9/11 that's made a difference, and they're never going away. The last Homeland Security tests that were made public (2017) showed a less than 25% success rate on detecting weapons, drugs, and explosives, and earlier FBI tests carried out with only publicly-available knowledge of the systems showed that a well-prepared individual who does basically any research can bring that down to less than 10%. You're not safer because of the TSA, just poorer.

I don't think anyone is opposed to pre-9/11 levels of safety, but the reality is that it's never happening.

We can sit here and talk about security theater all day long, but the depressing fact is that a ton of people still think it's saving lives. Doubly so if you're talking to people who fly maybe once every couple of years. I got a huge "what are you trying to hide / if it saves only one life / do you want to make it easy for terrorists" lecture from an idiot cousin of my wife's when I had the temerity to make a joke about idiotic it was not to let me fly out with a normal person sized tube of toothpaste. This isn't an uncommon thing.

It's the same people who roll their eyes at not wanting a cop rooting around your trunk at a traffic stop ("what do you have to hide?") or who think Ring doorbells are a great idea because they'll scare criminals away. Basically middle class people afraid of their shadows who trust the government to protect them.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.


What’s wrong with that video? It looks really off.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Azhais posted:

Dating goons is a biohazard and nobody here is wearing appropriate PPE


B-Rock452 posted:

Tourniquet for bleeding control, wrap in saline soaked gauze.

Sometimes unrelated posts match up just perfectly

:discourse:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

I'm guessing that it's the aftermath of an accident. The tractor ran into the silo and pierced the wall, causing the leak, and they were trying to get it out without making things worse.

Narrator: They made things worse.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

coupedeville posted:

I hadn't gotten a flu shot in years but the dealership I work at now offers them free of charge to all employees so I jumped at the offer. Workplace safety is more than just properly labeling chemicals and wearing personal protective equipment! :eng101:

Page snipe edit: Just before christmas last year I experienced something I had only ever seen in videos up until that point. A lube tech was doing a oil change/tire rotation/inspection and had a vehicle fall off the lift. Getting to see it happen in person was quite interesting but not something that I wish to experience again. Thankfully he had just stepped away from the vehicle and nobody was hurt, but it was still a lapse in safety and could easily have been avoided.




The employee was fired after this incident. It was unfortunate that he had to be let go the friday before Christmas and go home to his pregnant wife and kids jobless, but losing a job is much better than losing a life. Be safe out there when working around heavy machinery and equipment so you can go home to your families at the end of the day.

So what happens as far as the customer's car at this point? I'm guessing the business has insurance that takes care of the damage?

edit: also how does that happen? I'm assuming employee fuckup getting it up there if he got fired for it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

chitoryu12 posted:

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I had two employees who would both always call out sick and claim food poisoning every Monday or after a holiday. Never any other days. Finally someone spotted one of them and told me that yeah, they were just hungover.

I also had someone who would constantly call out sick and would send a picture of a clinic waiting room as proof, and it turns out they were just faking the pics and actually responding to an anxiety disorder by staying home and smoking massive amounts of weed.

I don't have much sympathy for the frequent hang over sick calls (I mean, once in a while, sure, but when it's a serious pattern it's a problem) but anxiety disorder weed guy is pretty understandable. Pitty they felt the need to fake the excuse, but then that's mental health stigma for you.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

mostlygray posted:


Not sure why truckers are constantly putting out the message of "what would happen if there were no trucks?" I've never heard someone complain about trucks or want them to stop moving.

There are legit reasons, mostly based around pollution and the way that trucks really do a number on interstates (which means the industry is effectively subsidized by highway taxes, as they don't pay for the wear they cause), for wanting to cut back on the amount of long distance shipping* we do via truck specifically. Now, what people want instead is all over the place. You'll find one end of the spectrum who wants us to go back to only using poo poo you can get in the local area, and others who just want us to invest in a better long distance transportation network designed specifically for heavy loads. Usually this is where someone who is into trains starts talking.


*note the "long distance" part of that. Every time this comes up anywhere someone starts asking how you're going to get your poo poo from the port or train station to the small town 40 miles away and ignoring the part where it's driving a load of stuff from LA to Omaha that is the issue.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

DelphiAegis posted:

In the US, Aren't deisel and gas taxes paying for the upkeep of interstate highways? So how do trucks/trucking companies not pay for the upkeep, then?

Local roads I get since those are supposedly funded by local property taxes, but is the deisel/gas tax just not enough to cover the wear large trucks do, or what?

The amount of money they pays is dramatically disproportionate to the amount of wear that they cause, because the taxes are levied per gallon of fuel. A family car pays the same per gallon tax as a truck, and a truck pays the same per gallon tax regardless of whether it's carrying a load of feather pillows or rolled steel.

This is exascerbated by the fact that heavier loads cause much more damage. And by "heavier" I mean "heavier than a family car." Multiple orders of magnitude. From what I recall the last time I read up on this we're talking in the "thousands of times more wear" ballpark, to the point where the damage caused by all the personal vehicles out there is a fraction of the damage caused by shipping.

So the relatively small number of commercial vehicles causing the vast majority of the damage are paying taxes, but they're paying a tiny amount compared to what they're doing to the roads. If road wear was priced appropriately every vehicle would pay a different per-mile tax based on its gross weight, and that tax would go up gently caress near logarithmicly with weight.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Ornamental Dingbat posted:

we discovered that a Canadian sister company that the guy owned was cutting duplicate paychecks in our names.

So what's the scam here? Some kind of payroll fuckery that benefits the company?

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

McGavin posted:

Oh, don't mind me, I'm just picking up random babies for a smooch.

Have you met old people?

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Helen Highwater posted:

My source was an old Romanian fighter pilot who had flown Bf 109s post-war. He'd been invited over by my employer at that time to provide some historical context for a game that we made. He told us a bunch of super cool stories, one of which was how hard it was to land the 109, due to the extreme angle of attack and the very long landing gear. He was talking to us in Russian, which I don't speak super fluently, but I got the part about being outside the cockpit to get lined up. I guess he could have meant unstrapping and leaning real far out of the open canopy.

Or he could have been an old man feeding you a line, or a joke that didn't translate well across the linguistic barrier. Or civilian/military barrier.

"Is person vet embellishing, underplaying, or just straight bullshitting me" is a serious issue in any kind of oral history. Not to mention the general issues with memories and how they're constructed. Not even just failing memories in old people, but how memory itself is constructed and how we incorporate things we've heard into our memories without even meaning too.

Here's a good example. A prominent holocaust historian I worked with for a bit was writing a book about a particular work camp that, later in the war, was evacuated to Auschwitz. One of the survivors told him in very vivid, clear detail how the train they took to the camp went through the gates, up to the train platform, and they had the famous selection process that we've all seen in a million movies. You know, an SS doctor standing up there sending some people one direction to work and others in another to get gassed right away.

Problem: that never happened to her. There were extensive archival records (and other survivor testimony) about how the tracks leading to the camp had been damaged (I believe in a bombing raid) and the train had to stop a few miles outside the camp and the prisoners were marched in. There is no way that she experienced what she said she did. To make it even more interesting, this work camp had a fair number of adolescents who normally would have been gassed straight away when they got to Auschwitz, but because of the unusual circumstances the whole transport was marched into the work part of the new camp, so no one was killed right off the bat. This was part of why there was such an unusual cluster of survivors from that original work camp that was evacuated to Auschwitz, and almost certainly why this particular woman survived. If she had gone through what she described she almost certainly would have gone to the gas chambers.

So was she lying? Not intentionally. But over the ~60 years between her showing up at Auschwitz and this interview the scene of the train pulling up to that platform and the selection process had become utterly iconic. She could have been telling the story she thought people wanted to hear, or constant exposure to that other narrative could have basically overwritten her own memory. It also doesn't help that the event she was trying to remember was incredibly traumatic, happened when she was young-ish, and happened under extremely stressful circumstances. One of the things that he only heard from survivors very quietly and usually with admonitions not to put it in his book was the issue of sexual assault on the train and on the march. Not from guards, but between the prisoners. Apparently there were some predators in there. So it easily could be that she had to deal with some extra-horrific poo poo on that particular journey and when friends and family asked her about it years later she substituted the more palatable, iconic scene for the awful, dreary, rapey one that she really did experience, and after enough repetitions and enough decades it pretty much became the truth for her.

So, yeah. Talking to old people about poo poo they experienced when they were young is important and needs to be a component of the historical record, but holy FUUUUCK does it have some major problems and you can't just accept it as god's own truth because "they were there so they know."

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Cable Guy posted:

Given the Utah plates, might that not be a family member saying they're grateful a relative is back in Utah earlier than expected... rather than "Hallelujah, here we go, we're gonna see the king..."

I mean yes, obviously, the Covid = angel thing is :stare:.

Just saying I'm not so sure it's quite as death-culty as appears. (Not quite being the operative in that statement... still pretty death-culty, just not as much).

That's how I read it, but still gently caress that person. They're celebrating 1k dead people in the US alone (as of the last time I looked) because it lets them see their kid sooner. gently caress them.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply