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Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

REAL TOP DOG SHIT
We Have Unlocked Woke Junpei Mode
Fuck Up Cops 2020
Beloved Forums Poster
Evolved Heightened Level Junpei
Junpei Is Not Ironic And That Is Why He Is Good

I wonder how much this would change if we had the Reko lives, Alice dies ending to 2-1.

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Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




So on one hand Safalin doesn't mind making use of Sara if she ends up abusing the mind eraser, but also will help them get an important chip? And is obligated to make the crazy robot suffer right before it dies.

The gently caress is her angle?

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





Mindblast posted:

So on one hand Safalin doesn't mind making use of Sara if she ends up abusing the mind eraser, but also will help them get an important chip? And is obligated to make the crazy robot suffer right before it dies.

The gently caress is her angle?

I think she is just doing whatever she is told. She seems at least a little genuinely remorseful about her actions, hence she is the crying doll.

I'm not sure what we can make of non-canon bad ends in regards to character actions. We have the same issue with Qburger, since in one instance he is willing to kill literally everyone, including Gin, but then in our route is willing to risk his life for Gin.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Mindblast posted:

So on one hand Safalin doesn't mind making use of Sara if she ends up abusing the mind eraser, but also will help them get an important chip? And is obligated to make the crazy robot suffer right before it dies.

The gently caress is her angle?

She genuinely thinks she is being nice to Rio (remember her emotions are just as hosed as Rio's), and is trying to help Sara out in a place where they're likely not being watched right that second.

MarquiseMindfang
Jan 6, 2013


Mindblast posted:

So on one hand Safalin doesn't mind making use of Sara if she ends up abusing the mind eraser, but also will help them get an important chip? And is obligated to make the crazy robot suffer right before it dies.

The gently caress is her angle?

Judging by Gashu having a collar, the relationship between the Floor Masters and whoever's actually organised this thing (Asu-Naro, I assume) might be nearly as antagonistic as the players'.

Maybe this is all just two different tiers of exam taking place at once. The players are fighting for induction to Asu-Naro, and the Floor Masters are already members, and are vying for a promotion?

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





Neddy Seagoon posted:

She genuinely thinks she is being nice to Rio (remember her emotions are just as hosed as Rio's), and is trying to help Sara out in a place where they're likely not being watched right that second.

I'm not sure she thinks she is being nice. I thought the image of having her eyes covered in shadow was anime visual shorthand for regret.

Butt Discussin
Sep 12, 2010





Goon Boots posted:

I'm not sure what we can make of non-canon bad ends in regards to character actions. We have the same issue with Qburger, since in one instance he is willing to kill literally everyone, including Gin, but then in our route is willing to risk his life for Gin.

I think this is actually somewhat realistic. People aren’t rational actors, they usually do what emotions or social pressure tell them to do in the moment, within certain bounds and probabilities influenced by their personality.

Qtaro is a dick who will throw everyone under the bus if he has the chance to escape, but he can also be peer pressured into acting heroically as well. Most people are like that.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Goon Boots posted:

I think she is just doing whatever she is told. She seems at least a little genuinely remorseful about her actions, hence she is the crying doll.

I'm not sure what we can make of non-canon bad ends in regards to character actions. We have the same issue with Qburger, since in one instance he is willing to kill literally everyone, including Gin, but then in our route is willing to risk his life for Gin.

Isn't it already a decently well established bit of psychology that people are more willing to push a button that causes suffering/death in the abstract, rather than having to view said suffering/death themselves?

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Isn't it already a decently well established bit of psychology that people are more willing to push a button that causes suffering/death in the abstract, rather than having to view said suffering/death themselves?

Q-taro was facing the other way so he couldn't view the suffering

But, yeah that is a good point.

Goon Boots fucked around with this message at 19:38 on May 6, 2020

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014





Talk to Safalin.



Sniff at Safalin.


*Sniff sniff *....



Investigate Laizer.

Laizer's head is sitting on a table.

Sniff at Laizer.








I checked my tablet behind my back so that Gin and Nao wouldn't notice.



(I guess... that figures...)

“Should we look for that secret room soon, meow?”

“R-Right! We need to find that...”

“Um...”

Music stops.




“Do you really...? Why you, Nao?”

“Err... A certain someone told me about it...”

“A certain someone?”

“I can't tell you who...”

“But please believe me, Sara.”

“..........”

“Okay? Let's go.”

“Y-Yeah...”

“.........”

“First, to the lobby...!”






Talk to Gashu.

“Is something the matter?”

“No, nothing.”

“If you have any worries, please inform me.”

Talk to Keiji.

“Sara...”

“Ah...”

“...”

“...Good. You're looking better already.”

“Keiji...”

“Um, we're in a little bit of a hurry, so...”

“...”

“Okie-dokie. See you later, then.”

“...Gashu is watching. Let's leave without drawing suspicion.”

“Err... It's towards the Ruined Corridor.”

Sniff at Gashu.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Urk... Smells like a fancy house, meow...”



“I've had enough already, woof!!”

Sniff at Keiji.

*Sniff sniff *....



“Big sis Sara, don't sniff it! Run away!”

“…?”



Music stops.

“...No one's around, right?”

“Yes, nobody but us...”

“..........”



“Is the secret room really here?”

“...”

“Um... Sara...”

“I'm just thinking... Once we go in the room, we might only have one chance...”



“Check it...?”

“Yes. If it's broken, this plan will be a failure...”

“Please, Sara.”



(Something's... wrong...)

“Sorry, Nao...”

“You won't... trust me...?”



“Sorry...”

“Why not...?”

“I just feel like... you aren't your usual self...”

“...Sniff... Sniffle... Sara...”

“Big sis Nao...!”

(I want to believe you too, Nao! But...!)



(I'll close my eyes... and take a deep breath. I'll look at Nao again with a clear head. The way I did when I was Keiji...!)



(What would Keiji do? How can I move her?!)







  • Another mini game; you just need to follow the heart and keep clicking on it.

Music stops.

“Nao, please tell me everything.”

“W-What are you talking about...?”

“We're not just strangers anymore. We're allies. If you're going to trick me, I'd rather we stand together and share our worries.”



“I lied to you...”

“I don't know anything about this secret room.”

“Big sis Nao....”

“But...”

“I do... know how we can find out.”

“What do you mean...?!”

“Sara...”



“Wha...”




“N... Nao?!”



“You did well, Miss Nao.”



“Sou...!!”

“...........”

“What're you planning, meow!! Lonerrr!!”

“I'd love you know what YOUR plans are going forward.”

“What do you mean by that?!”




“Hold on a second. Why do you know about the chip...?!”

“Ahaha, why indeed? How strange.”

(Ugh...!!)



“Analyse...?!”

“You're the worst, meow!! You used big sis Nao for that, woof?!”



“...........”

“Alright, Miss Nao. Hand me the chip.”

“..........”

“...”

Music stops.

“Miss Nao...?”








“What's going on, meow?!”



“Big sis Sara, let's go after her, woof! She went towards the lobby, meow!!”




“What is the matter, everyone?”

“Mya!! Don't interfere, woof! We're in a hurry, meow!!”

“Oh, my apologies. But it would be dangerous if you tripped in your haste.”



“Absolutely not. I simply spoke up out of concern... Go ahead.”

(We need to head for Nao's bedroom!)

Talk to Gashu.

“Could I tempt you to some tea?”

“Move it...!”

  • Keiji has nothing new to say.



“...........”

Music stops.



“Don't come in, please!!”



“Oh? Do we have guests? Ah, if it isn't Miss Sara and the others!”

“Meowww?! It's the old guy's monitor, woof!!”

“Didn't Reko destroy that...?!”



“Please be at ease, everyone. I will guide you towards escape.”

“Guide...? Like how, meow?!”

“As an artificial intelligence, I possess...”



“There's... no way...!!”

“Please trust me. You require a map of the facility, do you not?”



“Maybe it'll show us the layout of the facility!”

“With the laptop Miss Nao has brought, I can send over the data.”

“That's why big sis Nao took the laptop..!”



“Why did you make her steal it...?!”

“...There simply wasn't time.”

“Sara! Please don't be suspicious of the professor, okay?!”

“It's quite all right, Miss Nao.”




“Something's fishy here, Nao!!”

“What are you saying?!”



“Come, Miss Nao. Miss Sara and her friends are tired.”



“Don't do it, Nao!!”

Music stops.

“There! Is this fine, Professor?!”

“You did well, Miss Nao.”

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


HydroSphere posted:

“You did well, Miss Nao.”


List of people surprised by this twist:








David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.


PMush Perfect posted:

List of people surprised by this twist:

I am shocked, shocked to find that treachery is going on in here.

OOrochi
Jan 19, 2017


I at least didn't expect Nao to be so aggressive about getting the chip and laptop.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

REAL TOP DOG SHIT
We Have Unlocked Woke Junpei Mode
Fuck Up Cops 2020
Beloved Forums Poster
Evolved Heightened Level Junpei
Junpei Is Not Ironic And That Is Why He Is Good

Considering Sou was surprised by the fact that Nao grabbed it and ran, I actually don't think he's behind the Mishima AI.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Junpei posted:

Considering Sou was surprised by the fact that Nao grabbed it and ran, I actually don't think he's behind the Mishima AI.

I doubt he'd have the tools or the know-how to fake something like that anyway.

cardinale
Jul 11, 2016



Lol at Nao unexpectedly getting the drop on Sou

PlasticAutomaton
Nov 12, 2016

Artoria Pendonut




Okay. Safalin and the Mishima AI are probably on different sides here. I suspect that Safalin's been working with Gashu to try and dismantle this thing, with whoever "Miley" is being an agent of the kidnappers.

But it's pretty clear that the Mishima AI was another game of the kidnappers, and they both knew about the security key and needed it for something. Nao is the ideal target to manipulate, and they used her to play Sou (it's the only reason that Sou would have known about the chip) and get Kei's laptop in play as well as create an opening for her to steal the chip by also playing Sarah.

Falconer
Dec 7, 2003

Did you know, I was THE MOON once!

Yes! You see, one night it turned out the moon had been STOLEN!

The animal people asked ME to take its place as I am so WISE and BRILLIANT!!


Yeah, I'm thinking that Sou hasn't been behind anything recently but not for a lack of trying. I suspect Sou wanted to steal Sara's tokens but found that they were already gone thanks to Nao fulfilling one of the requests of Mishima v2. No worries though since Sou still had the laptop... except Nao just pilfered THAT as well.

As for the Sacrifice, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the second trade was between someone in Sou's group and Nao with the end result being that Nao got stuck with the Sacrifice. Sou, being who he is, would expect Nao to respond by trading with someone in his group. No problem there since between Q-taro, Alice, Kanna and Sou himself there are more than enough tokens for additional trades. Sou can set up Nao the same way he set up Joe and ideally get rid of another one of Sara's allies.

This new Mishima AI however wouldn't be above coercing Nao into trading the Sacrifice onto Sara so now Sou has no idea where the Sacrifice is and it's on the last person he'd expect Nao to trade it to. Time will tell if Sou gets a chance to gauge Sara's reaction after another trade occurs but right now he's lost the chance at Sara's tokens, the knowledge of where the Sacrifice is for use during the Main Game, and possession of Kai's laptop.

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020







Kali Ma!

Also, this is the second time Sarah has had something important snatched out of her hands. If it weren't for her butterfingers, the gang probably would already be out of there!

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


This is theoretical, but the Trading Game can become the Main Game without randomness. If you can form a trusting (no backstabbing) coalition, then you're guaranteed to win. You can pre-select which of the minority team will be the Sacrifice and majority vote victim.

If one were to form a 6 vs 2, then the minority has no defense. Since the majority has superior buying power, the minority can't trade away the Sacrifice, since it'll just be given back to them. They also can't internally trade to obfuscate since all trades are announced. Even if one could self-trade, the majority can just use 1 or 2 trades to check for and return the Sacrifice.

It's a rather stable outcome, but there's enough other stuff going on that it's not surprising nobody has come up with it in-game.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


When voting for someone is ultimately murder, and not voting for a sacrifice is also ultimately murder, literally pooling all your resources to make sure one person, in particular, is the sacrifice and then voting out another person is several degrees closer to actually just murdering the two of them yourself than either of the "chance" outcomes.

From an impartial game theory standpoint without any ethical considerations, I do applaud your analysis, though

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


The main flaw of a plan like that is that it requires that the entire team of six be rational actors. No one in this group is rational.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


That and the murder. You also have to get six people to agree, "We absolutely want to murder these two specific people". Which is a much larger ask than an anonymous vote that might not have the person you voted for die.

Jefepato
Mar 11, 2009

This?! This is a glorious dance! That has been passed down! In my family for generations!


Yeah, I have trouble imagining a group of six people who are decent, trusting, trustworthy, and well-adjusted enough to all work together...all agreeing that the other two people in the room should be killed.

Imagine someone actually suggesting to you "Hey, let's form a voting bloc and make sure those two assholes die instead of us."

It seems pretty implausible, especially for a group of people who barely know each other.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Yes, it is purely theory. Given how the story has gone so far, they won't do it. Some stories would.

I found it interesting that this particular round can be compared to a pure "vote someone off the island games". The last round had randomness to it. This time around, driven players have the opportunity to remove all randomness and provably benefit from forming an open information majority.

It is also interesting to consider that the equilibrium is fragile. In addition to twists, lies, betrayals, death/murder, and jury votes, games like this are set up to continue until a few remain. Stable trust in a majority is not possible since one could fall to the bottom of the pack in a subsequent round. Betraying the majority could be what saves a player, so forming a majority would no longer be a stable strategy.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



"Moody pheromones"?

Goon Boots
Feb 2, 2020





blizzardvizard posted:

"Moody pheromones"?

This foreshadows the surprise twist where Keiji is revealed to be an insect in disguise.

Sum Gai
Mar 23, 2013


blizzardvizard posted:

"Moody pheromones"?

And how does Gin know what those smell like, anyway...?

malkav11
Aug 7, 2009


In a game like Virtue's Last Reward, where in theory no one would have to die, just trusting each other and boosting points to maximum would be the optimal play. Here, because there are mandatory deaths, even the most optimistic team player is gonna have a hard time with that. And that's if they weren't an assemblage of random strangers, with deliberately shady information being slowly dribbled out about them.

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014






”But now, Master Gashu can rest easy.”

“Master... Gashu...?”

“Nao! Give us the laptop and chip...!! That's not Professor Mishima!!”

”It's too late. Both are already connected to me.”



“St... Stop!!”







(What on earth is happening...?)








“Don't get friendly with me!!”

“Don't you dare say my name with the Professor's voice and face!!”

“Nao... Don't tell me... From the very beginning...?!”



“...!!”

“Hey, Miss Sara. Do you remember a mysterious program on the laptop?”




“Well... That was a last resort Kai prepared.”

“A file named BACKDOOR... that was really a hacking program, used to get data from the organisation.”

“Wha...?!”



“Ahaha. You're the one who's getting deleted.”



The artificial intelligence... vanished.

“Can you stand, Miss Sara?”



“...Ever cautious, huh.”

“I'm going to get straight to analysing now, so you do your part.”



“H... Huh...?”





Talk to Nao.

“Sorry for tricking you, Sara...”



“Explain everything, please.”

“...Okay.”

“I'll explain. You see...”

“When the trading phase began and we were given our role cards... the fake appeared on this monitor.”



“But I quickly came to my senses.”

“The fake ordered me to collect the laptop and Ranger's chip.”

“And he said to do it alone, without discussing it with anyone...”



“When did you team up with Sou?”

“Just a little while ago... Before I saw you in the Medical Office.”

“At first, I immediately thought of discussing it with you, Sara.”



“If they found out I was wary, I was sure the fake would disappear...”

“So I thought, I had to extract as much info from it as I could...!”

“And so you talked with the loner, woof?!”



“And continuing to act like I was fooled, we sent the hacking whatzit!”

(To think Nao was capable of that...)

“The best way to get the fake to believe me...”



“And that was all the loner's plan too, woof! Amazing, meow!”



“No, big sis Nao's the chipper type, meow!”

“I really don't think I am!”

(But getting help from Sou, of all people... However you look at it...)

“I'm... going to believe in Sou.”

(…!)



“Please, gather everyone in the lobby.”

(Nao...)

Sniff at Nao.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Wyah?! A... Am I sweaty?!”

“Nah! You smell nice, meow!”

“O-Oh, really! Ehehe...”

Talk to Sou.

“...”

“Sou...”

“Could you not talk to me right now?”

“You're making me mad, meow!!”

(Just have to leave him to it, I guess...)

Talk to Sou.

Sou is focused on the laptop.




(I'll poke him...)

“..............”

(No reaction...)

Poke Sou again.

“Stubborn...”

(Ah! He reacted!)

And again.

“...Would you please stop it?”

(He's getting annoyed...)

And yet again.



“The loner snapped, meow... Scary, woof...”

Sara will refuse to poke Sou after that.

Sniff at Sou.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Smells gloomy, meow! I feel bad for him, woof!”



“Don't treat me like a cat, meow!”





Talk to Kanna / Keiji.

“Got any leads on escaping, Sara?

“Yes.”

“Eh...?”

“So both of you, please come to the lobby.”

“Did you really...?!”

“...Sou is attempting something right now.”

“Sou...!”

“Okie-dokie. I'm half-believing... But I'll come to the lobby once I'm done here.”

Sniff at Keiji.

*Sniff sniff *....

“What're you doing...?”

“Smells like a lady-killer, meow!”

“Where'd you learn a word like that, huh?”



Music stops.



(There's someone in the darkness...)






“Not just yours necessarily. Everyone's is... falling apart...”

“Hmph...”

“Sometimes... it's better to forget memories that are simply too painful. And in reality, the human brain is made to do so.”

“All of you are too strong... So you can't erase your own memories.”

“So with this machine, you really can erase them.”



“Only the painful memories, you understand...?”

“Those fun memories as brother and sister... Those will remain, and you can just forget the bad memories.”



“...............”



“...Are you certain?”

“Make it quick. Before I change my mind...”

“...Then here we go.”





“How do you feel...?”

“...”

“O... Ohh?!”





“A-Alice...”

“Ahh, Sara Chidouin. How long have you been there?”



“So... you used the machine.”

“Well, yes... Mwahaha.... I should have asked to earlier if I'd known I'd feel so refreshed.”



“Hmph...? I've more memories than I know what to do with.”



“Being able to say a thing like that all casually... It's not right, woof...”

“What...?”



“I can't say... Alice did anything wrong.”

“Indeed. Don't hamper my invigorated mood... I think I'll go rest in the lobby.”

Music stops.

“Let's go, Gin.”

“Okay...”



Talk to Safalin.

“I believe this machine to be one way of achieving happiness.”

“No matter what you think of it...”

Sniff at Safalin.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Meow! It smells really sweet near her head, woof!



“That's gross, so I'll pass, meow...”

“Aah... sniffle...”



  • I'll show the Reko version of this scene tomorrow.



Talk to Alice.

“Mwaha... My mind is clear as a spring morning...”

Sniff at Alice.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Hmm... Normally, this is when I'd drive you off. But I'm in a good mood right now...”

“Go ahead and sniff awaaaay!!”

“Urk... I'm good, meow. I'm scared, woof.”

“Mwahaha... Suit yourself. You've missed your chance...”


Jadecore
Mar 10, 2018

They say money can't buy happiness, but it sure does help.

I'm inordinately fond of what's halfway a running gag in the story of Nao having recovered from the stealing-the-head incident and successfully repeatedly turning out way stronger and more competent that anyone else actually expected.

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

Go Nao! And Sou is looking more and more like a guy who was just slow to trust others, or that they weren't double-agents. Ominous line about a Lady-Killer though... what if Gin means it more literally?

Does the memory-machine scene change depending on how often Sara has used it?

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


I've been waiting to talk about this reveal for a while, but I'm gonna hold off until the end of the chapter.

cardinale
Jul 11, 2016



Man, I am so invested in this.

Doobeedoo
Oct 6, 2013

Trees and plants tend to grow on this Pokemon's back because it moves so little. It loves eating food while playing with tiny Pokemon.


cardinale posted:

Man, I am so invested in this.

Same. Going from binging the thread to reading updates as they're posted is making me anxious.

sweetguts
Apr 29, 2013

Soon the city will be overrun by KITTENZILLAS!!


HydroSphere posted:

“Mwaha... My mind is clear as a spring morning...”

"'F.K.'... In the coffee!"

HydroSphere
Feb 11, 2014





(There's someone in the darkness...)






“Not just yours necessarily. Everyone's is... falling apart...”

“Everyone's...?”

“Sometimes... it's better to forget memories that are simply too painful. And in reality, the human brain is made to do so.”



“And so... You wanna erase them yourself... My memories of Alice...!!”

“Only the painful memories, you understand...?”



“I am the only one who can cure you...”

“No... Sure enough, I can't forget Alice...”



“I don't have too many memories with him...”



“So... I don't wanna forget even a shred...”

“Miss Reko... Understood...”



  • Instead of eyebags, Reko takes off her makeup.



“So... you wouldn't use the machine.”

“...Yeah. Maybe I took the hard choice...”

Music stops.





Sniff at Safalin.

*Sniff sniff *....

“Meow! It smells really sweet near her head, woof!



“That's gross, so I'll pass, meow!”

  • On Alice's route, Gin looks upset when he says this; on Reko's route, he's smiling.

“Aah... sniffle... I-Is that so...”




Talk to Reko.

“I bet I really would be happier forgetting painful memories, but...”

Sniff at Reko.

*Sniff sniff *....

*Sniff sniff *....

“Don't be a copycat, meow!!”

“You smell like a Shiba, Gin.”

“Really, woof?”


girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Reko's version of the scene is extremely . I imagine it's going to mean a hell of a lot to at least one person who's in the process of grieving when they play this game.

Can't believe Gin is still the only one wearing a facemask. Isn't anyone else worried about social distancing?

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






I just finished Persona 5 Royal the other day, so Reko's "gently caress you, I want to remember the bad along with the good" resonates a bit more after that.

Did you need to have the memory wipe in the last chapter, or was that just if you were hitting every hallucination?

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girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Randalor posted:

Did you need to have the memory wipe in the last chapter, or was that just if you were hitting every hallucination?
There’s a couple opportunities to miss them, and if you dodge or accidentally skip at least one big one, you end up at just enough stress to make it to the Game. I actually did that by mistake, and I ended up thinking that it was, like, a secret test that I passed by not accepting the clearly suspicious offer of memory wiping.

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