Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


As unfortunate as Kanna and Sou are being, Kai might be the only safe choice for the group as a whole.

Still, is it actually dangerous to vote for the Sacrifice? This could be a scenario like the Second Game where we're being misled by tricky wording and imagery.

In the first Roles explanation, the Miley pre-recorded video says:
- Fourth is the Sacrifice card.
- Amazingly, this curious card allows the person to survive only if chosen as the victim!
- Which means if they're not chosen, they die! However, there are positives as well!
- The Sacrifice alone has 2 votes, and also...
- If they win, they can escape alive with a person of their choice!
- Well, but in that case... all the others will perish. So good luck!
- So at minimum, two people will die. Everyone, do your best not to be one of them!

The red/green figures behind the explanation do seem to confirm that picking the Sacrifice is fatal for most of the group. However, the images don't necessarily reflect the truth.

Once at the Main Game Stage, Miley recaps that "If the victim is the Sacrifice, the Sacrifice wins, and can escape with one person of their choosing." She also provides "rulebooks on the desks", and the latest post shows that Rulebook 2 only says "Sacrifice: Has two votes, but lives only if chosen.".

Since later discussion of the Sacrifice's powers has become vague, it implies to me that the rules could have a loophole:
- If chosen, is the Sacrifice required to escape with a person of their choice?
- Is choosing a 2nd person to escape with the only trigger for all the others to perish?

If the answers to both are no, then everyone could survive. Of course, I'd like to hope that everyone can survive the Main Game, but I doubt the game would allow for it.

NeoRonTheNeuron fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Feb 16, 2020

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I want you to vote for Sou, but I wonder what happens if you vote Sara.

The cynical part of me says that Sara's vote doesn't matter. The game didn't let us decide the majority in the Second Game or Preliminary Vote, so she'll feel less guilty if we leave the decision to everyone else.

What happens in the case of a tie, anyway?

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


There are 9 attractions, and you can get 1 Clear Chip each. You can't do attractions twice but still need 10.

If there are only 2 Clear Chips for sale, this isn't going to end well.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


While it might be nice to amass 50 Reko tokens (and buy her info?), the proposed trade isn't a net positive for us, so let's just talk to Kanna.

It could be argued that Sara must give away her Me-Tokens to have a chance of seeing her profile, but I think she's better off keeping them all.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Gin's offer is just too tempting because of the prize for having the most tokens. If Sara doesn't take them, someone else will.

We've already invested a lot into the Reko/Alice arc, so I hope ignoring her this time doesn't cause any problems.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


:O It's just a tree. Don't look too closely, Sara!

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Talk to Q-Taro

We've been avoiding trades so far, so I would recommend continuing to avoid them to guard Sara's dossier.

If Sara needs to get to 200, would you say that she has 140 (her 100, Gin 30, Reko 10) or just 40 (Gin 30, Reko 10)? If she can't put her own tokens towards the 200 door, realistically, she could be able to just collaborate with somebody else and trade 100 for 100 on the spot and spend them all. If her goal is to open the door on her own, without any assistance, then trading 30 for 30 with Nao is simply treading water.

From a meta-game perspective, the coin trades could be how we get access to everyone's dossier. If you were to accept her 30-coin trade, plus the 20-coin Nao-Reko-Sara triangle trade, you'd be able to reach 50. It's similar for Reko; she gives you 30, and the reverse triangle trade would have taken us to 50 Reko tokens.

IIRC, Q-Taro has proposed trading twice, and Gin has offered 40 tokens so far.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Oh, I'm not so sure about genuinely good... Manipulations like this strengthen his hold over Kanna.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Keiji though I wish we could claim all those sweet free Gin coins too.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


The game is great, but scenes like this annoy me. It was never made clear that scoring was based on all tokens touched and that ranking beyond first place was relevant. Whatever is happening is simply unfair.

Then again, some players are clearly aware of these hidden rules, so overcoming this knowledge gap might just be part of the game. For example, Sou was in grave danger of ranking last, so he probably did a 100 for 100 coin touch with Kanna. They probably didn't even explicitly trade, which is why Kanna was shocked to realize she ranked 3rd. Keiji has been very careful about his tokens, so he must have managed to get a middling score because he collaborated with Q-Taro. This means that Q-Taro getting 1st is inevitable.

It also means that once again, no matter what we do, we can't win as Sara. :( The most we can control is sharing last place with 0 tokens.

Rules griping aside, I'm fairly sure Sou is using a fake name and that the papers show everyone's win rate. Based on all the AI, dolls, and (fake?) Reko, there's got to be some kind of cloning or time loop aspect to this story.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Goon Boots posted:

I think the unfairness complaint here is less about fairness in the story and more about how the unfairness affects our ability to make predictions. At any point, our understanding of the game/story can be subverted by twist rules, and this makes it very hard to logically puzzle things out.

This is the type of interaction I find enjoyable in something like an Ace Attorney game, but I think maybe I should give up on the idea of this playing similarly to those types of games.

Yeah, I'm a fan of mysteries and puzzle games. Twists like this are preventing this game from fitting into those genres.

Jadecore posted:

Sue Miley sneaking into Sara's room and handing her secret bonus info

Sorry, how do you know it was Sue Miley?

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Ah, you're right. I even checked back and didn't see anything other than shadow.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Spiked pit aside, I wonder what the other group is seeing in their portion of the puzzle.

The thing we can control in this part of the game is how many coins Sara touched. While we can't get max or min, it might be possible for Sara to beat Keiji and end up in the other group.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Yeah, IMO, they are all dolls with AI, so it doesn't really matter.

The awkward thing about Gin's weight is that technically, his costume should put him over the 35.5 mark. No idea how the weight will be relevant though since jumping on the platform (Impression Room) doesn't do anything.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


There are walls to the Impression Room "tunnel". If the 3 descend cooperatively, they should be able to make it down safely.

That said, if Reko is a fake, this isn't going to fly.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Exactly. :D Please let this happen.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


If this leads to a game over, it'd be nice to see us being punished for our lack of priorities.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


No because it's too soon to give up, and there could be other avenues to explore.

It's not like we're out of time for the next shot, right? There might be a 1:4 or 2:3 split where both Gin and Q-Taro can survive all of the poison. And is it really guaranteed that pushing Reko down there will save Gin? How about tossing the floor tile (or web of happiness) onto the shooting machine so that it misfires?

In any case, if this isn't a real branching point, then Nao or fake Reko will do it for us. (Or the pushing could just fail.)
EDIT: The OP's update is marked to say that this is a real decision, but my cynical side is already in despair. Sara's other major decisions have basically had no effect so far.

NeoRonTheNeuron fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Apr 11, 2020

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I like how split we are on this decision.

Push Reko [24 votes]
HerpicleOnicron5
Junpei
placid saviour
Regallion
Nick Buntline
tweet my meat
Jadecore
Akratic Method
Ignatius M. Meen
PlasticAutomaton
Onmi
LiefKatano
Fumbles
Toalpaz
WhalerWren
Eeepies
Amidiri
Insertnamehere31
Neddy Seagoon
Veriun
Chatrapati
Randalor
LawrenceFriday
Sordas Volantyr




Spare Reko [28 votes]
Sword_of_Dusk
Mraagvpine
NeoRonTheNeuron
OOrochi
Tylana
Bifauxnen
MarquiseMindfag
Goon Boots
Blaze Dragon
Mystic Mongol
value-brand cereal
TakenForGranite
idhrendur
Obscil
someone awful.
Akumu
Eumenides
Polderjoch
sleeptalker
vector_to
cardinale
Lord_Magmar
RedMagus
Jefepato
David Corbett
differentiating
wologar
tomanton


Abstain [1 vote]
PMush Perfect

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


From a meta-game perspective, sure, I'd believe that Sara's inaction on this decision is likely to doom Gin, but I also wouldn't consider it to be a moral decision anymore if viewed that way.

If one thinks from Sara's position, not pushing is quite reasonable. She takes a massive reputation hit that won't have a guaranteed payoff.

Why is it assumed that Sara is the only one with the agency to save Gin by pushing fake Reko?
- Nao can do it or sacrifice herself.
- Fake Reko can jump in herself.
- Q-Taro can still swap places with Gin.

Why is it assumed that this must be a doll for human life trade?
- Sara/Nao/Gin/Q-Taro could be dolls too.
- There could be other solutions beyond pushing fake Reko.
- Pushing a mass into the spike pit does not guarantee that the poison gun will deactivate.
- Q-Taro might survive if he presses the button to swap.
- Gin might already be doomed to die if the 1st poison shot was a slow-acting poison.
- Real Reko may be killed if fake Reko is killed.

Gin being a doll isn't impossible. His personality is a bit more elementary then middle schooler. If he's been a doll this whole time, his personality could totally be 3 years out-of-date, just like fake Reko.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

because it is a videogame and this is a player choice

Right, and if you assume this, the moral debate evaporates, so voting either way is acceptable.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I can get behind that. It would be a failure to play the game if we didn't go down both routes.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Considering what just happened, I think this game would be better off as a visual novel without these kinds of choices. We've been cheated every time.

That aside, there were some interesting hints given:
- Rio Ranger said "the fake doesn't bleed". If taken to mean that dolls don't bleed, the Sue Miley smacked by Kai is alive.
- Researcher Satou is likely related to Kai. As was pointed out, he's likely to be the one Kai was emailing.
- The Main Game is the same format as last time (Keymaster, Sage, Sacrifice, Commoners), so this is likely to be a constant.

The Main Game gives us even more control than before; you can use your tokens to force role swaps. In addition to getting your preferred role, I wonder if the trades themselves have to be analyzed during the Main Game.
- What's the price to force a swap?
- Do you get to choose who to swap with, or is it random?
- If you get to choose who to swap with, do you have to pay with tokens obtained from that person?
- If your role is forcibly taken away, do you only learn that it happened, or do you also learn who you swapped with?

This isn't looking great for Gin, but it's not necessarily so great for those who ranked high. The ones who ranked high may have touched a lot of tokens, but they almost certainly don't own as many as they touched.

The Main Game still has the Sage can't lie about the outcome weakness, right? Won't it just devolve into the same discussion again?

NeoRonTheNeuron fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 14, 2020

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


A lot of people think that someone else needs to be killed off in each path to balance numbers for the Main Game. That makes sense, but it has a strange implication.

The choice we made subverted expectations and ended up offing Reko.
So the choice we didn't make will probably also subvert expectations.

Example Outcomes:
- BAD END: "pretty proud of my reflexes" -> Fake Reko dodges and pushes Sara in.
- "pretty proud of my reflexes" -> Fake Reko dodges, and pushes Nao in.
- Fake Reko gets pushed, Gin is immediately injected with all the remaining poison doses.
- Same but Q-Taro swaps before that happens.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Meta: The fact they had a selection screen like that makes it more likely that the survivor of Alice/Reko will die in Part 2. Chapter Three would be hard to pull off if there wasn't some convergence, but who knows?

I hope role swapping is explained further and is implemented well.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


"You were all born to win", huh?

Maybe the whole thing ends if we let Sou/Shin win for once. xD

Since the setup for Part 2 allows you to pick the Reko route or the Alice route, it seems unlikely that the game remembers how many tokens Sara has left. As a result, Sara is unlikely to actively participate in any trading, though a card may end up shoved at her by someone else.

It seems like those who initiate the trade can pick their target, but it's unclear if the target gets to know who the initiator is. Guessing not. Obscuring whether or not you've traded with someone is going to be a key strategy for survival this time around.

I hope they also patch up the "Sage can't lie" loophole; it ruins the whole scheme if they don't.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


I like it. That's a pretty stable "solution" and is suitably dramatic.

Since the person initiating the trade knows what the target should end up with, anyone who starts with the Sage will want to get rid of it and convince everyone to target the person who received it. However, if the person receives the Sacrifice in exchange, they can no longer safely reveal any info.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Is it still too late to trade Me-Tokens? They never actually took away the tokens, so in theory, you could still trade the ones with your name to give them value. In this case, Sara could give Keiji a bunch more to spend if anything happened.

Given how the game is structured, however, I don't think this will become an option for us.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


This board was in Japanese in the original, right? Even the missing letter carries over.

シュン (Shun)
ソウ (Sou)


EDIT: see below, the name is シン (Shin). The space wouldn't exist in JP.

The board is written in the JP alphabetic order. Sou got lucky that his fake name happened to be between Shunsuke and Naomichi. (Q-Taro is the only exception to the alphabetic order, but perhaps his name literally starts with a Q in the Japanese version.)

NeoRonTheNeuron fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Apr 26, 2020

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Oh right, I had a sad feeling that it was like that. I can't explain the extra space then.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


There's a lot of things that were just revealed. I think they just implied that the first Mishima was a doll.
- Doll heads contain an important chip that the gamemasters are retrieving.
- Mishima's head went missing.

It looks like both Gashu and Sue Miley are somewhat on our side.

Gashu also said that the monitors contain AIs of all those who cleared the First Trial, but there are only 9 monitors for the 11 clearers. One was broken from the start, so perhaps the remaining 8 were for everyone but Joe+Kai+Nao.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Yes, I could see the broken one being Sou's.

That'd leave 1 extra monitor for Joe/Kai/Nao. Kai is the most likely one since he's been involved with the organization and could have had an AI modeled after him.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Oh good, Sara is the Sacrifice and Sou is probably Keymaster. Yay!

Blaze Dragon posted:

"Kain you believe it" is an impressive pun for such an unemotional person.

It's probably less troubling in Japanese. I dunno what the original line was, but all you'd have to do is add い (i) after the usual question ending か (ka) to produce Kai.
Ex: 信じられないのか

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


You have a point about Nao throwing Sou under the bus, but I'm not completely convinced.

It's already been established that all trades are made public as they happen. In other words, you can have an alibi for a particular trade if people are around you. Nao was unlikely to know whether or not Sou was alone since trades have to be done in your own room. If he hadn't left, then the group of 6 (Keiji/Sara/Alice/Sou/Kanna/Q-Taro) would conclude it was Nao since Gin has no tokens.

(Gin technically could have done it since players have not been banned from trading their tokens. Also a technicality, but Reko's body also has tokens to scavenge.)

All that said, I don't know if the game cares to think along these lines.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Oh dear, so Trade 3 is the one that gave Sara the Sacrifice and Reko's tokens are coming into play. Yay!

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


This is theoretical, but the Trading Game can become the Main Game without randomness. If you can form a trusting (no backstabbing) coalition, then you're guaranteed to win. You can pre-select which of the minority team will be the Sacrifice and majority vote victim.

If one were to form a 6 vs 2, then the minority has no defense. Since the majority has superior buying power, the minority can't trade away the Sacrifice, since it'll just be given back to them. They also can't internally trade to obfuscate since all trades are announced. Even if one could self-trade, the majority can just use 1 or 2 trades to check for and return the Sacrifice.

It's a rather stable outcome, but there's enough other stuff going on that it's not surprising nobody has come up with it in-game.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Yes, it is purely theory. Given how the story has gone so far, they won't do it. Some stories would.

I found it interesting that this particular round can be compared to a pure "vote someone off the island games". The last round had randomness to it. This time around, driven players have the opportunity to remove all randomness and provably benefit from forming an open information majority.

It is also interesting to consider that the equilibrium is fragile. In addition to twists, lies, betrayals, death/murder, and jury votes, games like this are set up to continue until a few remain. Stable trust in a majority is not possible since one could fall to the bottom of the pack in a subsequent round. Betraying the majority could be what saves a player, so forming a majority would no longer be a stable strategy.

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


Sorta. I think it's a multi-layer plan. "We're going to escape together, but if that doesn't work out, haha, Sara's the Sacrifice".

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


A familiar plot beat for games like this, I'm afraid. Oh well, back to the Main Game!

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

NeoRonTheNeuron
Oct 14, 2012


They didn't fix the Sage loophole at all. If the Sage can't lie about the contents of the divination, you can force everybody to take turns claiming everybody is the Keymaster. "I am the Sage; the divination showed me that I am the Keymaster."

Only the Sage and Sacrifice won't be able or willing to do that. The game would be interesting if it went down this route and you had to logic out the trades afterwards.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply