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Armacham
Mar 3, 2007

Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

swickles posted:

In the books, most weapons are designed to be recoiless and less penetrative than a modern handgun. The last two things you want in a firefight are to either throw yourself off kilter due to low/zero G, or shoot at someone and have the bullet go on to pentrate the hull of your ship. Most rounds are similar to the kinds of munition we see in the attack on the station in season 2, but with a little more stopping power.

I'm assuming that they use some sort of frangible ammo along with rubber bullets as mentioned in the first book.

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Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



i think i read something once that the threat of bullets piercing the hull is wildly overstated by a lot of sci-fi

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Horizon Burning posted:

i think i read something once that the threat of bullets piercing the hull is wildly overstated by a lot of sci-fi

Surely ricochets would remain a problem though?

Anita Dickinme
Jan 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

We had a guy have a 5.56 misfire on our ship a few years ago and it just bounced around the bulkheads a lot. Fun times.

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011






I haven't done any testing on this myself but from numbers and experiments I've seen I think an eighth of an inch of steel will mostly stop a full 5.56mm round. It'll deform the hell out of something and might crack a bit. That still would be a problem but it's a lot more manageable than a series of decent sized holes in the hull.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


Horizon Burning posted:

i think i read something once that the threat of bullets piercing the hull is wildly overstated by a lot of sci-fi

Your ship's at one atmosphere or close to it(*). A couple of tiny holes in the hull aren't generally going to be a big problem. You'll get a leak, but air's not going to rapidly leak from one atmosphere through a 5.56mm hole. Mass flow rate for air is

dm/dt = .04042*area of the hole*cabin pressure/sqrt(cabin temperature)

Call cabin temperature 300K, cabin pressure 100kPa. Area is 2.4E-5 square meters. 5.6 grams of air per second, or about 4.5 liters. Now the temperature is going to change as the air escapes, but you've got a spacecraft heated by a fusion drive, the thermal mass of the spacecraft is enormous compared to the thermal mass of the air so you can pretty much consider temperature to be constant, and a small leak isn't going to significantly drop the temperature of the air remaining inside. With that assumption you can calculate how long it'll take for pressure to decrease from your initial value to some final value this way:

time = 0.086 (volume/area)ln(initial pressure/final pressure)/sqrt(T)

The Roci seems to be roughly 44 meters long and 11 meters in diameter at its narrowest. That's about 4000 cubic meters, cut that in half to account for internal stuff taking up space. So to drop to 10% of the initial pressure, it's going to take 44000 seconds, about 11 hours.

Obviously you can come up with scenarios where that could be critical, like we have exactly as much air as we need to get back to Tycho Station and can't spare a single drop and if we get a hole we're hosed, but you're flying around in space and have to deal with things like micrometeorite impacts on a routine basis. I mean, you'd still want to take reasonable measures like handwavium frangible bullets that won't penetrate aluminum hulls that are about as thick as a sheet of paper, but a few small-arms-sized holes in a spacecraft are not even anything you'd generally need to worry about right this minute.

(*) - Now that I think about it it's almost certainly not, no reason they'd worry about carting around all so much gas that's not oxygen, and given that they pretty uniformly need to be ready to EVA at a moment's notice their ships are all probably pure O2 environments at low total pressure. So leaks are gonna be even slower.

Phanatic fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Feb 22, 2021

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




Open Source Idiom posted:

Surely ricochets would remain a problem though?

Ricochets would be bad, yeah. I think hull penetration is a vastly overstated problem on military ships, the Donnager's hull is not going to be so weak a loving pistol can put a hole in it. It could be more of a concern on your average lovely Belter ship, and you could certainly damage something important inside the ship. The risk of a bullet going through an air recycler or a computer or something seems far more important than it penetrating the hull. Even if it did go through the hull, that's not a big hole and fixing the leak wouldn't be a huge deal.

I think bullets that break apart if they hit anything metal is sensible, but not for the reasons stated.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

I think people are assuming space ships are similar to what we have now, where the walls are only as thick as they need to be because the ship needs to be light enough to be launched in the first place. In this universe, they can launch pretty much whatever they want, plus take advantage of asteroids for materials, so ship hulls can be very thick.

Gully Foyle
Feb 29, 2008



Grand Fromage posted:

The risk of a bullet going through an air recycler or a computer or something seems far more important than it penetrating the hull. Even if it did go through the hull, that's not a big hole and fixing the leak wouldn't be a huge deal.

I think bullets that break apart if they hit anything metal is sensible, but not for the reasons stated.

Always figured this was more of the answer than depressurization concerns. Theres a fuckload of valuable electronics, piping/valves, and so on in your ship, and most of that is not going to be hardened from impacts coming from inside. Shoot the wrong place and now you've lost control of a maneuvering thruster, or have the thruster gases spewing into your cabin, or have water pumping out onto your electronics. Depending on if you are talking about a military vessel like the Roci or a Belter rock-hopper, you may have various levels of redundancy and safety, but it's probably a good idea to minimize that at least while in your own ship. Boarding someone else's ship, and it probably depends on if your mission includes a plan to capture that vessel.

Captain Splendid
Jan 7, 2009

Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Would spalling be a problem? I feel like it would

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016



Captain Splendid posted:

Would spalling be a problem? I feel like it would

Yah in the books they make a big deal about anti-spalling webbing/technology

Cannon_Fodder
Jul 17, 2007

"Hey, where did Steve go?"
Design by Kamoc

Phi230 posted:

Yah in the books they make a big deal about anti-spalling webbing/technology

It's specifically called out (in the books by Alex) right after the Stealth Ship fight right after they find the ship that Julie Mao escaped in the first episode.

They're riddled with holes and he makes a comment about how nice that feature is to have on the ship. Holden interprets this as "We shouldn't be alive right now" from Alex.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006




lol

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Gully Foyle posted:

Always figured this was more of the answer than depressurization concerns. Theres a fuckload of valuable electronics, piping/valves, and so on in your ship, and most of that is not going to be hardened from impacts coming from inside. Shoot the wrong place and now you've lost control of a maneuvering thruster, or have the thruster gases spewing into your cabin, or have water pumping out onto your electronics. Depending on if you are talking about a military vessel like the Roci or a Belter rock-hopper, you may have various levels of redundancy and safety, but it's probably a good idea to minimize that at least while in your own ship. Boarding someone else's ship, and it probably depends on if your mission includes a plan to capture that vessel.

Star Trek consoles are filled with bullets.

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009
DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL



I feel like through most of the show they've been pretty consistent with putting on vac suits and storing their air anytime they're in space combat specifically so they don't vent atmosphere if they get some holes punched in em, but in the last episode Marco's person (forget what her name is) on Drummer's ship pulled off her mask right as they were entering a fight and it just felt wrong. Am I mistaken about this being a thing in the show and I'm just remembering it from the books? Although thinking back to the Donnager fight in S1 I don't think anybody on the bridge had a suit on, while those around the rest of the ship definitely did...

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


twistedmentat posted:

Star Trek consoles are filled with bullets.

The funniest thing about the exploding consoles is that iirc the explanation is “oh the federation pipes actual high-energy plasma around the ships instead of using electrical wiring” but it is never explained why.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

What's a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here?



Inspector 34 posted:

I feel like through most of the show they've been pretty consistent with putting on vac suits and storing their air anytime they're in space combat specifically so they don't vent atmosphere if they get some holes punched in em, but in the last episode Marco's person (forget what her name is) on Drummer's ship pulled off her mask right as they were entering a fight and it just felt wrong. Am I mistaken about this being a thing in the show and I'm just remembering it from the books? Although thinking back to the Donnager fight in S1 I don't think anybody on the bridge had a suit on, while those around the rest of the ship definitely did...

The Bridge of a ship that big is probably in the middle of it, and if they were taking hits that cause loss of pressure, things are going so badly it doesn't matter if they have suits or not. But for smaller ships and people operating in other sections of the bigger ships, yea suits are probably needed in a fight. Though I don't think the UN ships have ever shown anyone aboard wearing a suit?

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011






Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

The funniest thing about the exploding consoles is that iirc the explanation is “oh the federation pipes actual high-energy plasma around the ships instead of using electrical wiring” but it is never explained why.

Which is like deciding that instead of building a proper geothermal power and heat plants then sending electricity and hot water to customers it's more effective to just pipe them high-pressure superheated steam and magma instead.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

twistedmentat posted:

The Bridge of a ship that big is probably in the middle of it, and if they were taking hits that cause loss of pressure, things are going so badly it doesn't matter if they have suits or not. But for smaller ships and people operating in other sections of the bigger ships, yea suits are probably needed in a fight. Though I don't think the UN ships have ever shown anyone aboard wearing a suit?

I imagine there's an element of 20th Century naval warfare 'all or nothing' armour schemes going on. Most of the ship just just vacuum and radiation sealed, and then around a few critical command stations you have an armoured tub to protect the occupants.

Bedshaped
Apr 1, 2010




Soiled Meat

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

The funniest thing about the exploding consoles is that iirc the explanation is “oh the federation pipes actual high-energy plasma around the ships instead of using electrical wiring” but it is never explained why.

Do they ever explain why the panelling is filled with rocks?

Bedshaped fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Feb 23, 2021

Tarquinn
Jul 3, 2007

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."



Hell Gem

Bedshaped posted:

Do they ever explain why the panelling is filled with rocks?

Heat sinking rocks to shield people from the hot plasma.

I made that up.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Kazinsal posted:

Which is like deciding that instead of building a proper geothermal power and heat plants then sending electricity and hot water to customers it's more effective to just pipe them high-pressure superheated steam and magma instead.

Or like piping hydraulic fluid around a car to actuate things like power windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_600

ElBrak
Aug 24, 2004

"Muerte, buen compinche. Muerte."

Data Graham posted:

Or like piping hydraulic fluid around a car to actuate things like power windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_600

A lot of old cars and aircraft would measure oil pressure by piping the oil from the engine through a tube to the gauge and then pipe it back. Sometimes they did the same to measure how much gasoline you had left.

Jows
May 8, 2002



Data Graham posted:

Or like piping hydraulic fluid around a car to actuate things like power windows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_600

Or the sun roof - hope it doesn't leak!

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Ah yeah. I've torn apart dashes like that. It's a cool surprise if you're not expecting it

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know


twistedmentat posted:

The Bridge of a ship that big is probably in the middle of it, and if they were taking hits that cause loss of pressure, things are going so badly it doesn't matter if they have suits or not. But for smaller ships and people operating in other sections of the bigger ships, yea suits are probably needed in a fight. Though I don't think the UN ships have ever shown anyone aboard wearing a suit?

We have only seen flagship class interiors of UNN ships during battle, which similar to the Donnager, they were not in vac suits during battle. I bet if battle is assumed, all the smaller ships definitely suit up but the capital class cruisers don't, because anything that would affect the bridge would probably also kill the ship.

Cannon_Fodder
Jul 17, 2007

"Hey, where did Steve go?"
Design by Kamoc

swickles posted:

We have only seen flagship class interiors of UNN ships during battle, which similar to the Donnager, they were not in vac suits during battle. I bet if battle is assumed, all the smaller ships definitely suit up but the capital class cruisers don't, because anything that would affect the bridge would probably also kill the ship.

Though the justification seems sound, the level of basic survival redundancy to poo poo like these ships should mandate a suit. Maybe they just didn't consider the targets enough of a danger to go full DEFCON 1 on prep?

I consider this poo poo oversight.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





Cannon_Fodder posted:

Though the justification seems sound, the level of basic survival redundancy to poo poo like these ships should mandate a suit. Maybe they just didn't consider the targets enough of a danger to go full DEFCON 1 on prep?

I consider this poo poo oversight.

I very much agree here. Why you wouldn't mandate suits on for all crew when at battlestations is a bit to me. Even if you have full confidence in the armoring of your command deck, you can still be boarded, life support could get fragged, or any number of other things where you don't want to have to tell your combat staff "Hey stop monitoring the weapons systems you need to get into a space suit because Inaros just depressed the whole ship and is gonna open that door!"

Also, speaking of depressurizing, isn't that standard protocol on smaller ships before entering combat? Depressurize all essential areas (and presumably lock down anything that needs to stay pressurized) to prevent blowouts if a hole of sufficient size gets punched in a compartment? I swear I remember back in season 1 they did this. It was the episode where the dude didn't stow his tools properly and like a wrench or something knocked his air line out and Amos had to try and save his rear end while the ship was doing high-G combat maneuvers.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Bedshaped posted:

Do they ever explain why the panelling is filled with rocks?

They have to fill it with rocks or the tribbles get in and eat all the conduits.

Cannon_Fodder
Jul 17, 2007

"Hey, where did Steve go?"
Design by Kamoc

Warmachine posted:

I very much agree here. Why you wouldn't mandate suits on for all crew when at battlestations is a bit to me. Even if you have full confidence in the armoring of your command deck, you can still be boarded, life support could get fragged, or any number of other things where you don't want to have to tell your combat staff "Hey stop monitoring the weapons systems you need to get into a space suit because Inaros just depressed the whole ship and is gonna open that door!"

Also, speaking of depressurizing, isn't that standard protocol on smaller ships before entering combat? Depressurize all essential areas (and presumably lock down anything that needs to stay pressurized) to prevent blowouts if a hole of sufficient size gets punched in a compartment? I swear I remember back in season 1 they did this. It was the episode where the dude didn't stow his tools properly and like a wrench or something knocked his air line out and Amos had to try and save his rear end while the ship was doing high-G combat maneuvers.

I would assume all oxygen would get vacuumed out and stored, avoiding fires and allowing for venting of other crap. Sure, it makes pressurized tanks onboard more deadly, but you're already a pressurized tank.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



So about exploding consoles in star trek being the most common way to die...

I believe it's all started in one of the classic trek movies. Prior to this movie, exploding consoles were not really super common. The movie opens with a training scene (you don't know its a simulator) where a ship is in a battle and one by one the crew all start to die due to their consoles shooting sparks and smoke as the ship takes damage. In the end its all shown to have just been a simulation, and a person with half a brain would put two and two together and figure out the exploding consoles were just a fun way to indicate to the player that they or their station have been destroyed or rendered inoperable due to battle damage. Someone saw this scene and decided to ignore the "training game" part of it and decided that's exactly how battle damage now works in star trek.

It would be like someone watching characters doing some sort of laser-tag training scene where people's vests lit up and buzzed when they were hit then later showing most combat deaths being from people's high tech battle-armor shorting out and killing them. Then later ret-conning in an excuse that their super high tech military grade armor actually has high energy structural force fields in them so when penetrated obviously release all that energy into the user.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


Baronjutter posted:

I believe it's all started in one of the classic trek movies. Prior to this movie, exploding consoles were not really super common. The movie opens with a training scene (you don't know its a simulator) where a ship is in a battle and one by one the crew all start to die due to their consoles shooting sparks and smoke as the ship takes damage. In the end its all shown to have just been a simulation, and a person with half a brain would put two and two together and figure out the exploding consoles were just a fun way to indicate to the player that they or their station have been destroyed or rendered inoperable due to battle damage. Someone saw this scene and decided to ignore the "training game" part of it and decided that's exactly how battle damage now works in star trek.

Right, but a big point of that in-film was to trick the viewer into thinking serious poo poo was going down, so the sparks etc. were intended to communicate *to the viewer* that Spock just died because his console blew up. This was also done because they knew rumors of Spock's death in the film were going to get out, so if they "killed" him early on it would still allow for surprise at the ending of the movie.

gfarrell80
Aug 31, 2006


twistedmentat posted:

The Bridge of a ship that big is probably in the middle of it, and if they were taking hits that cause loss of pressure, things are going so badly it doesn't matter if they have suits or not. But for smaller ships and people operating in other sections of the bigger ships, yea suits are probably needed in a fight. Though I don't think the UN ships have ever shown anyone aboard wearing a suit?

swickles posted:

We have only seen flagship class interiors of UNN ships during battle, which similar to the Donnager, they were not in vac suits during battle. I bet if battle is assumed, all the smaller ships definitely suit up but the capital class cruisers don't, because anything that would affect the bridge would probably also kill the ship.

I feel like having the Donnager bridge crew, Agatha King bridge crew , and the cool MCRN lady commander at the Io encounter not being in vac suits was probably more of a acting/emoting choice. Really helped during the mutiny scene to be able to see everybody's faces. Much harder to act and distinguish characters when people are in vac suits. Even if you're in a hardened citadel in the center of the ship you'd probably still be suited up maybe not with helmet on, but helmet close at hand.

gfarrell80 fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Feb 24, 2021

BrotherJayne
Nov 27, 2019

Cum Catapultae Proscriptae Erunt Tum Soli Proscripti Catapultas Habebunt


Bedshaped posted:

Do they ever explain why the panelling is filled with rocks?

lol what the gently caress

Ornamental Dingbat
Feb 26, 2007



Bedshaped posted:

Do they ever explain why the panelling is filled with rocks?

Worf wanted to have some cleansing energy in his console.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust



gfarrell80 posted:

I feel like having the Donnager bridge crew, Agatha King bridge crew , and the cool MCRN lady commander at the Io encounter not being in vac suits was probably more of a acting/emoting choice. Really helped during the mutiny scene to be able to see everybody's faces. Much harder to act and distinguisher characters when people are in vac suits. Even if you're in a hardened citadel in the center of the ship you'd probably still be suited up maybe not with helmet on, but helmet close at hand.

Yeah it's part of why Drummer's mutiny in the season 5 finale was confusing

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


Ornamental Dingbat posted:

Worf wanted to have some cleansing energy in his console.



mr worf see me in my ready room, it's crystal charging time

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



gfarrell80 posted:

I feel like having the Donnager bridge crew, Agatha King bridge crew , and the cool MCRN lady commander at the Io encounter not being in vac suits was probably more of a acting/emoting choice. Really helped during the mutiny scene to be able to see everybody's faces. Much harder to act and distinguish characters when people are in vac suits. Even if you're in a hardened citadel in the center of the ship you'd probably still be suited up maybe not with helmet on, but helmet close at hand.

It's something director of the movie Excalibur mentioned.

Having helmets on was more realistic but on the flip side it made harder to track the heroes especially during the fight scenes.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









etalian posted:

It's something director of the movie Excalibur mentioned.

Having helmets on was more realistic but on the flip side it made harder to track the heroes especially during the fight scenes.

Excalibur has a dude loving in full plate so idk if realism was a big concern

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Jows
May 8, 2002



etalian posted:

It's something director of the movie Excalibur mentioned.

Having helmets on was more realistic but on the flip side it made harder to track the heroes especially during the fight scenes.

Same reason in sci-fi whenever anyone is wearing a helmet they have bright fuckoff lights blinding them so we can see their faces.

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