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AtraMorS posted:Or it means that the nature of sci-fi reverses the relationship of the reader to the moral era in question. With Quixote, the reader is looking back at a moral system already considered antiquated, but with The Expanse and Holden, our moral norms are being flung into the far future. To everybody else in the show, Holden kind of looks like Quixote, but to us his morals are more or less familiar (albeit pretty rigid). This is gibberish. Sci-fi is usually always within the workings of our current idealized moral norms or commentary on where our current system is wanting. Except for some garbage speculative exceptions, authors do not project some imagined future morality into their characters, because current readers will not relate. You think readers considered chivalry antiquated when Don Quixote was published in 1605? Notions of chivalry still hang around our knecks to this day. Hell, Star Wars adopted chivalric tropes to the hilt. Other than the bourgeois notions of courtly love, the general moral rules of chivalry are still applied to this day in multiple contexts; from rules in warfare to etiquette when interacting with the opposite gender. Holden is far from the only strongly moral character on the show. Alex is generally an equally righteous mouthpiece for morality along with Holden. Alex tries to introduce Amos to helping people in need multiple times. Naomi as well tries to keep the crew steered well on occasions: "each lovely thing we do makes the next one easier." Heck, in terms of suffering from altered reality and going righteously against the grain, Miller is probably a better candidate for a Don Quixote character than Holden.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:46
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:It's funny how pretelling Julie's story throws everyone off. She was a prisoner on the Anubis when it helped take down the Donnager (you can hear the Anubis' crew running to battle stations and popping off railgun rounds in her intro.) Going by the Spacedock video on the Stealth frigate (which is still canon in the context of the show last I checked), the Anubis wasn't part of the attack on the Donnager. The sounds of battle Julie hears while onboard were just the Anubis firing upon the Canterbury. Also, the Canterbury was the target of the Anubis from the start, not the Donnager. They mention the Canterbury being within range when they set it up, and that they expect the Cant to pick up the bait signal soon. Edit: corrected a brain-fart saying the Cant was the target of the Scopuli https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uezHDcGbjlk&t=159s Slashrat fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 07:52
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gfarrell80 posted:
Chivalric customs remained, but the chivalry that dominated the Middle ages started to die two hundred years before Don Quixote. I feel pretty comfortable describing many beliefs of the early 19th century as antiquated, even if some have extant components still alive today.
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Mar 3, 2021 08:14
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piL posted:Chivalric customs remained, but the chivalry that dominated the Middle ages started to die two hundred years before Don Quixote. I feel pretty comfortable describing many beliefs of the early 19th century as antiquated, even if some have extant components still alive today. Victorian morality still infects western society. It's funny, that Don Quixote was written when? in the 17 century? Its kinda funny how today we'd think that the time of knights and stuff was all around the same era, but that would be more than 200 years before then. That's like thinking that the Mexican-American War is in the same era as us now. I guess because up until recently, people still pooped in holes or pots, used candles to light up the night and had to learn an instrument if they wanted music so it all kinda blends together even though the technology is similar, the societies that existed in those periods were much more sophisticated and evolved than they had been during what we would have thought of the high middle ages. There is a reason we call this period early modern, because you can start to see the systems that we have now coming into being.
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Mar 3, 2021 08:59
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Slashrat posted:Going by the Spacedock video on the Stealth frigate (which is still canon in the context of the show last I checked), the Anubis wasn't part of the attack on the Donnager. The sounds of battle Julie hears while onboard were just the Anubis firing upon the Canterbury. Wait, so their plan was to send a signal, a kind of signal routinely ignored by ships like the Cant, to the Can't?
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Mar 3, 2021 09:31
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gfarrell80 posted:Prometheus and Ad Astra were indeed fantastically terrible films for a multitude of reasons. Prometheus I think is just a hacky franchise reboot attempt, but if you delve into Ad Astra much IMHO it is a deeply insidious movie when it comes to the assumptions and depictions it makes about the near future. Ad Astra was an allegory for a psychological journey, nothing the characters do is meant to be taken literally
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Mar 3, 2021 09:40
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Wait, so their plan was to send a signal, a kind of signal routinely ignored by ships like the Cant, to the Can't? Seems so. I presume the Protogen earther goons were either unaware of the practice out in the belt, thought it less widespread than it was or just accepted that waiting around a little bit on the off-chance they could get the Earth-Mars war started right then and there was worth it, and if not they'd find some other way later. Remember, the Scopuli finding them caught them entirely by surprise, so everything about the plan leading to the Canterbury's destruction was slapped together in like a day because the opportunity presented itself.
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Mar 3, 2021 10:21
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Slashrat posted:Seems so. I presume the Protogen earther goons were either unaware of the practice out in the belt, thought it less widespread than it was or just accepted that waiting around a little bit on the off-chance they could get the Earth-Mars war started right then and there was worth it, and if not they'd find some other way later. Remember, the Scopuli finding them caught them entirely by surprise, so everything about the plan leading to the Canterbury's destruction was slapped together in like a day because the opportunity presented itself. One assumption is that the trap was really for the OPA, on the basis that they'd send someone out to look for the Scopuli and then Protogen could kill them as well. But the Anubis is the ship with the Protomolecule sample, so they really shouldn't be loving about, they should be getting themselves to the ring station asap. e: although having captured the Scopuli, the Anubis knows that they had their flight plan. Which means their hidden base is not so hidden and they have a reason not to beeline there.
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Mar 3, 2021 10:38
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twistedmentat posted:
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Mar 4, 2021 02:57
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twistedmentat posted:It's also hilarious looking, a big grey potato floating in space. This also makes me wonder what the furtherest people have gone. Ganymede is a moon of Jupiter, which is pretty far out, and then Ceres is further out than that. Nitpick, but Ceres is in the asteroid belt proper, and well inside the orbit of Jupiter. Orbits wise, you have Earth, Eros, Mars, Ceres/Tycho/Pallas, everything in the Jovian system (Io, Ganymede, etc), everything in the Saturn system (Titan, Enceladus, Phoebe). Phoebe is the furthest out thing that is mentioned in the series I believe (might be some Neptune poo poo) until the Ring stabilizes outside Uranus' orbit. The killer stuff is orbital mechanics though. Finding out about Eros makes me want to fire up a solar system map and adjust it out to the estimate time period of the show to see where everything actually is. Is there a planetary conjunction, or is burning from Ceres to Pallas taking you the LONG way around to avoid the inners. During Nemesis Games, in stuff that was cut from Season 5, Alex and Bobby are fleeing from Marco after escaping an attack on a martian convoy going from Mars to Luna and have to plot a course that takes them inside Venus' orbit and there's a throwaway about the Razorback being able to stay cool that close to the sun. CommanderApaul fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 04:20
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CommanderApaul posted:Nitpick, but Ceres is in the asteroid belt proper, and well inside the orbit of Jupiter. Ooh I thought the Belt was between Jupiter and Neptune, not between Mars and Jupiter. While looking at the wiki for the stations, I saw that Ceres became completely under control of the OPA, I cannot remember if that is mentioned in the show, hence the spoiler. Bobbie's escape from the embassy is pretty fantastic. She just beats the poo poo out of Martins, and good for her, that guy deserved it. Also, holy poo poo what do you expect when you slaughter the close knit squad of your elites and then expect the elite of the elite to just take that laying down after blowing smoke up her rear end. They probably trained her to think of herself, to have situational awareness to be able to operate effectively as a leader, that does not go well when you assume blind patriotism is going to keep them quiet. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 04:51
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Bobbie only found out about the weapons test because Chrisjen gave it to her. If it wasn't for that there's a good chance she would have stayed a marine, or at least went back to Mars prison uneventfully.
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Mar 4, 2021 06:39
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packetmantis posted:Regarding the Don Quixote stuff, I've felt that the show/books (much more apparent in the books, which is why I stopped reading them) have some gross libertarian undertones, in that helping people who don't "deserve it" is inherently bad. I missed that with Holden's idealism but I definitely noticed it with the Basic stuff on Earth. I've only read the first book so far, but I don't get that vibe at all. From reading the authors' twitter account I have my criticisms of their politics but I definitely wouldn't characterize them as libertarians. The belters are pretty clearly characterized as a colonized people and I don't think most libertarians can even conceive of why colonialism would cause social problems. Also private security forces like Star Helix and RCE security are portrayed as violent and corrupt while the Protogen corporation commits horrific, genocidal acts of human experimentation. The authors can definitely see the bad side of pro-market philosophy
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Mar 4, 2021 08:48
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twistedmentat posted:Bobbie's escape from the embassy is pretty fantastic. She just beats the poo poo out of Martins, and good for her, that guy deserved it. Also, holy poo poo what do you expect when you slaughter the close knit squad of your elites and then expect the elite of the elite to just take that laying down after blowing smoke up her rear end. They probably trained her to think of herself, to have situational awareness to be able to operate effectively as a leader, that does not go well when you assume blind patriotism is going to keep them quiet.
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Mar 4, 2021 08:52
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Pizza Segregationist posted:I've only read the first book so far, but I don't get that vibe at all. From reading the authors' twitter account I have my criticisms of their politics but I definitely wouldn't characterize them as libertarians. The belters are pretty clearly characterized as a colonized people and I don't think most libertarians can even conceive of why colonialism would cause social problems. Also private security forces like Star Helix and RCE security are portrayed as violent and corrupt while the Protogen corporation commits horrific, genocidal acts of human experimentation. The authors can definitely see the bad side of pro-market philosophy The show is very clear that the belters are an oppressed people. That Earth Basic is actually a pretty poo poo system for the people receiving it, even as they get smeared as 'takers' by the Martians. That the Martian system of 'everyone pulling together in a common purpose' sounds great from a distance but that's because fascism sounds great from a distance. That tech companies can make wonderous things, but the people in charge of them don't care about the misery the cause along the way and definitely don't consider themselves under the control of a national government. What the story fundamentally has to say about ideology is that there is no magic ideology that results in people becoming good. The heroes in the story are all good because they learn and display empathy towards others. The villains literally cut away the bit of their brain that does empathy. That's what you are supposed to take away.
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Mar 4, 2021 11:07
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They made this really drat explicit through Peaches last season too. Literally saying "hey maybe if we didn't see all the people from Muslim countries as outside our tribe and instead included them in our prosperity because they, like us, are human beings, some of them wouldn't feel the need to fly planes into buildings?"
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Mar 4, 2021 12:01
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There's a scene in a later book explicitly making fun of libertarians too, so, I suspect they probably aren't libertarians.
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Mar 5, 2021 03:06
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Infidelicious posted:Marco's actor is good, the character is supposed to be a preening douchebag. I feel like in every scene Macro does that wide eye stare and then ramble on about either why terrism against da innas is good or why his ex naomi is bad Also, Drummer prob will be the one to kill marco rite? The 3 characters for whom killing Marcos make sense are Drummer, naomi and filip but I don't think the expanse is dark enough for Kinslaying. Typo fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 04:09
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Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him. When they renamed the Roci the first time, I thought they were going to be doing that every so often, have a rotating ship name. Also completely forgot the slick maneuvers when the Roci saves Bobbie and Chrissy.
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Mar 5, 2021 06:32
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twistedmentat posted:Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him. They've literally already done that exact scene with different characters and it made more sense there. Marco is a populist, the satisfying end for him that everyone will agree with is that he goes on trial as a war criminal and end up isolated and forgotten in a cell somewhere for the rest of his life.
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Mar 5, 2021 10:54
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The show and books are very much not libertarian. If anything they’re about shared humanity. They don’t really have much of real-political politics slant at all to be honest, other than the value of self-rule I guess.
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Mar 5, 2021 11:16
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twistedmentat posted:Seriously, the most logical and satisfying end for Marco is Dummer just shooting him in the head while everyone debates about what to do with him. One of the few times it was sad that the Drummer didn't let her "famous temper" take control when they had Marco right next the airlock after jumping him.
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Mar 5, 2021 15:51
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etalian posted:One of the few times it was sad that the Drummer didn't let her "famous temper" take control when they had Marco right next the airlock after jumping him. Yeah, this didn't sit well with me at all. I don't like her judgement. She's playing the game, but seems to make the wrong moves until someone course-corrects her.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:11
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Best storyline this seasons are the belter storylines Holden continues to be "Mass effect player who just hits paragon on every dialogue choice " avasarala story is bland but Shohreh Aghdashloo is so good I'd watch her explain how to mix lunar rum or whatever and it would be better than 90% of TV shows
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Mar 5, 2021 17:25
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Cannon_Fodder posted:Yeah, this didn't sit well with me at all. Didn't he break the truce twice in S4? First time before they had the airlock trial, and then again after? Best thing for Drummer to do would have been to play up the idea of Belter's policing themselves - the problem isn't that he attacked Inner ships, the problem is that he broke a treaty the Belt signed - and putting a big loving bounty on his head.
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Mar 5, 2021 18:58
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I do like how when characters first meet each other in this they always fight, but you know they're going to be buddies eventually. Bobbie going from being happy to be among Martian decor for the first time in a while turning to anger seeing the flag defaced. Also was Ngyun on the ship that attacked Mao's ship? He's clearly in cahoots with Erinwright as he straight up says so, and once he gets aboard and leads the Agatha King to a very messy and unpleasant death. I also realized why I got confused on what season was what storyline, is that the Syfy seasons have more episodes than the Amazon ones so they have time to do more stories in one season. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 18:58
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Typo posted:Best storyline this seasons are the belter storylines Amos does the Renegade interrupts like the beatdown with a can of chicken scene.  Also: 
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Mar 5, 2021 20:21
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I would do both, as that gave you the most nuisanced Shep. The best button to a scene is to have Amos just make a flat statement.
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Mar 5, 2021 20:38
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The biggest Amos masterstroke was using some history storytelling to get his future "friend with benefits" on board.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:45
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etalian posted:The biggest Amos masterstroke was using some history storytelling to get his future "friend with benefits" on board. I can honestly say that this was just the greatest moment in the entire show to me.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:05
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etalian posted:The biggest Amos masterstroke was using some history storytelling to get his future "friend with benefits" on board. Yup, probably one of the best things the show is going to do. Poor Souther, too moral for the Expanse. Also one of the coolest things they did with the gravity is when the Agatha King goes all bonkers and you have all the crew stuck to the floor, dead, standing up. Oooh Maneo is the guy who got smooshed on the ring gate for the sake of a great pair of tits. Also how long does the stuff up to the ring take? It feels like its about a few weeks between The Cant blowing up and Amos going "what the gently caress was that?" Maybe 2 months at most. loving Ashford, just amazing from the first second you see him. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 00:08
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twistedmentat posted:loving Ashford, just amazing from the first second you see him. Was pretty even "out of character" he had common with Ashford such as mischief creating how David Strathairn would do pranks on the cast between shoots.
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Mar 6, 2021 02:31
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etalian posted:Was pretty even "out of character" he had common with Ashford such as mischief creating how David Strathairn would do pranks on the cast between shoots. I forgot about that. It's amazing, when I first saw these episodes, I figureed Ashford was just looking for a second of weakness from Drummer to usurp command, but watching them again, no, he isn't, he actually believes in the idea of the OPA as a nation with a formal military and everything. Diogo is the one on Dawes orders to take over as soon as they can.
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Mar 6, 2021 09:00
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twistedmentat posted:I forgot about that. It's amazing, when I first saw these episodes, I figureed Ashford was just looking for a second of weakness from Drummer to usurp command, but watching them again, no, he isn't, he actually believes in the idea of the OPA as a nation with a formal military and everything. Diogo is the one on Dawes orders to take over as soon as they can. It's also such a great nuanced "frenemy" relationship such as how they are initially hostile to each other when they met on OPA Behemoth but other time grow to trust each / bond while solving their side of the Gate crisis situation.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:30
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twistedmentat posted:I forgot about that. It's amazing, when I first saw these episodes, I figureed Ashford was just looking for a second of weakness from Drummer to usurp command, but watching them again, no, he isn't, he actually believes in the idea of the OPA as a nation with a formal military and everything. Diogo is the one on Dawes orders to take over as soon as they can. It was also a great fakeout for us filthy book readers, since Ashford does mutiny in the book and we were all waiting for it.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:32
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Grand Fromage posted:It was also a great fakeout for us filthy book readers, since Ashford does mutiny in the book and we were all waiting for it. Hard Working showrunners decided to troll people who read the books and enjoy posting plot "spoilers" in threads?
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Mar 6, 2021 19:00
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etalian posted:It's also such a great nuanced "frenemy" relationship such as how they are initially hostile to each other when they met on OPA Behemoth but other time grow to trust each / bond while solving their side of the Gate crisis situation. I get that Ashford was looking at this woman who works for the OPA leader he doesn't respect as he's an Inna, and thinks she's not the best idea for command, but as he sees her deal with situations, he sees that she is more than capable and deserves his support. Being trapped together clearly brought them closer together.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:05
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Gully Foyle posted:True, fair enough, I was exaggerating and perhaps unfairly. Most people don't need to accelerate hard, and could spend a lot of time out of couches. I loved the Bobbi and Alex scenes and that he finally got his Screamin' Firehawk
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Mar 6, 2021 20:09
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Karma Comedian posted:I loved the Bobbi and Alex scenes and that he finally got his Screamin' Firehawk Oh! I completely missed that, that explains why Naomi didn't realize that Alex was close by because she was unaware he'd changed the ships IFF so just saw this random ship.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:27
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twistedmentat posted:Oh! I completely missed that, that explains why Naomi didn't realize that Alex was close by because she was unaware he'd changed the ships IFF so just saw this random ship. She totally saw it and knew it was him, he chose that fake name because it was a previous in-joke and they had no way to communicate
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Mar 6, 2021 20:28
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