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Who is the #1 Overall Pick
Anthony Edwards
Cole Anthony
James Wiseman
LaMelo Ball
Other
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Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I wish we got to see LaMelo in college because Lonzo always looked great against that level of talent but in college for careful observers you could see which parts of it were a facade.

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MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


He has some of the same issues but he's a much better ball handler in the half court. He doesn't finish super well because he's very skinny but he can actually get to the rim

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


Lamelo's jumper is more hideous than his brothers because his foot placement is just like, embarrassing. He's absolutely terrible on defense too, just constantly out of position and getting bullied by everyone.

Those handles and the passes are just beautiful though. The hesitations he uses so much combined with the handles just absolutely wrecks his current competition. Like a Jamal Crawford that can't shoot worth a poo poo and is somehow tinier and weaker.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



Doltos posted:

Lamelo's jumper is more hideous than his brothers because his foot placement is just like, embarrassing. He's absolutely terrible on defense too, just constantly out of position and getting bullied by everyone.

Those handles and the passes are just beautiful though. The hesitations he uses so much combined with the handles just absolutely wrecks his current competition. Like a Jamal Crawford that can't shoot worth a poo poo and is somehow tinier and weaker.

he reminds me a lot of kyle anderson but not quite so slow

probably equally bad defensively until he bulks up though

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Since the importance of the three-point shot has increased it seems like a lot of players come to the draft with a shot that's not quite good enough, they need to get better as they age to justify a draft slot, but that's very hard to predict or project. And if you think you can turn every bad shooter with a nice motion into a good three-point shooter you end up like the Knicks. It's very tricky

On the other hand, guys who come in to the draft with Rock solid three-point shooting tend to be underdeveloped in the rest of their ames because they're outliers in this tricky skill.

Don't know why voice to text capitalizes random nouns

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


It took Brandon Ingram like 4 years to fix his 3 point shot and it wasn't super bad to begin with

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



Dejan Bimble posted:

Since the importance of the three-point shot has increased it seems like a lot of players come to the draft with a shot that's not quite good enough, they need to get better as they age to justify a draft slot, but that's very hard to predict or project. And if you think you can turn every bad shooter with a nice motion into a good three-point shooter you end up like the Knicks. It's very tricky

On the other hand, guys who come in to the draft with Rock solid three-point shooting tend to be underdeveloped in the rest of their ames because they're outliers in this tricky skill.

Don't know why voice to text capitalizes random nouns

i think the draft process overvalues point guards that can create their own (3 point) shot and centers who can finish inside because thatís what modern offenses feature

for all the analytics-driven stuff that the nba embraces, it is a very conservative follow-the-leader enterprise in practice

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Declan MacManus posted:

i think the draft process overvalues point guards that can create their own (3 point) shot and centers who can finish inside because that’s what modern offenses feature

for all the analytics-driven stuff that the nba embraces, it is a very conservative follow-the-leader enterprise in practice

I think it might be part of the nature of scouting that leads to players who succeed in the style similar to NBA players who are doing very well to be rated over other players who might be better, but in a way that isn't being done at the highest level in the NBA.
D'Angelo Russell was compared to Curry, markelle fultz was compared to Harden.

Brandon Clarke had no contemporary comp. Pascal siakam wasn't compared to anybody of note.
it's not that picking a player who doesn't fit a superstar archetype always works it's just that sometimes the best player doesn't fit the archetype

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


I think it just proves player comparisons are stupid. Everyone is slightly different from one another both physically but especially mentally. There's probably a bunch of guys out there that are as physically gifted as Harden but can't even come close to the knack that he has.

Also from writing a ton of draft stuff for football I've noticed that I hate writing and people hate reading similar assessments across different players. Like if you list 10 players as all being great at slicing to the basket or having great handles then people get bored and want more explanation. It's like you're forced to make player comps just to give variety.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



Doltos posted:

I think it just proves player comparisons are stupid. Everyone is slightly different from one another both physically but especially mentally. There's probably a bunch of guys out there that are as physically gifted as Harden but can't even come close to the knack that he has.

Also from writing a ton of draft stuff for football I've noticed that I hate writing and people hate reading similar assessments across different players. Like if you list 10 players as all being great at slicing to the basket or having great handles then people get bored and want more explanation. It's like you're forced to make player comps just to give variety.

yeah, even writing here for a Sophisticated Audience people like(d? idk i havenít written in depth draft stuff in like two years) player comps because itís something tangible; itís the same for stuff like reviewing video games where people donít want subjective descriptions, they want a basis for comparison that they can use as mental shorthand to process what kind of player the prospect in question is

i can say james wiseman is unselfish and can create his own shot in the post and finishes well in transition and off putbacks but his offensive game is severely limited more than 10 feet from the basket, or i could just say heís like a taller deandre jordan with a post game; oneís more helpful than the other but oneís also a lot easier to write and to read

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

I don't disagree with you guys about comps. What I was trying to express was that in scouting in watching players fail and succeed and imagining roles in the NBA, players who are dominant in the NBA are going to dominate the minds of all but the canniest scouts.

it seems like it's easier to drum up excitement when the best player or the best prospect is clearly one of a kind or just a very rare breed. Zion was a crazy player who did things that were seemingly impossible. Because of that he's got to relearn how to run walk in jump, but everybody got really excited and it was a very fun thing to experience

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Yeah comps are a good way to describe how you see a player putting skills together, but ultimately they're just shorthand. How a player devlops is not fait accompli. The team, system, coaching, success and sometimes just dumb luck all have a big factor in how a player grows.

I do agree, it is really cool when you see a guy and you have no idea if that guy will become a new archtype or jump himself out of the gym and out of the league.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



Doltos posted:

It took Brandon Ingram like 4 years to fix his 3 point shot and it wasn't super bad to begin with

It's not NBA but PJ Washington shot 23% from behind the arc in 2017-18 compared to over 42% in 18-19 and has shot over 40% during his rookie season.

I thought Rui was hitting 3p shots early in the season (as opposed to college) but I see he's missing nearly 80% of 3's. Ouch.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Ingram in general shot well the second half of every season so this wasn't a total surprise. He was told by a player he idolized to stop shooting who also happened to be his boss so that didn't help.

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

tadashi posted:

It's not NBA but PJ Washington shot 23% from behind the arc in 2017-18 compared to over 42% in 18-19 and has shot over 40% during his rookie season.

I thought Rui was hitting 3p shots early in the season (as opposed to college) but I see he's missing nearly 80% of 3's. Ouch.

I'd likeanyone who doubts my draft savant status to go back and check my PJ Washington takes. This kids got it all

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



okoro got shut down in the second half of the alabama game last night but he was also the one keeping them in it in the first half

i think he might actually turn into something really special

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


https://twitter.com/OlgunUluc/statu...4893915136?s=19

In addition to everything else that's weird about him, LaMelo has not played a complete season of basketball since 2016. Bad draft! Trade your picks!

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



MourningView posted:

https://twitter.com/OlgunUluc/statu...4893915136?s=19

In addition to everything else that's weird about him, LaMelo has not played a complete season of basketball since 2016. Bad draft! Trade your picks!

....is that the Jermaine Jackson that played in the league?

Paul Zuvella
Dec 7, 2011



MourningView posted:

https://twitter.com/OlgunUluc/statu...4893915136?s=19

In addition to everything else that's weird about him, LaMelo has not played a complete season of basketball since 2016. Bad draft! Trade your picks!

He's going to rehab and spend time with his horse, so it makes sense.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



El Gallinero Gros posted:

....is that the Jermaine Jackson that played in the league?

yeah thatís the one

he coached lamelo at SPIRE then i guess quit to become his agent

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Well I'm glad Reggie Perry balled out because otherwise drat Anthony Edwards pretty much wasted my time in my first game of his.

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Despite Powell's achilles tear, I don't think the Mavs will do anything to get drummond. There are enough springy pnr guys who aren't going to take up the salary.
On the other hand, with the way premier free agents have completely ignored Dallas, maybe they will trade some random gaggle of stuff.

Declan MacManus posted:

yeah thatís the one

he coached lamelo at SPIRE then i guess quit to become his agent

Just another proud Detroit boy doing it real big in the world of basketball. UDM... No mercy on the court. baby

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Sam Vecine posted:

The guys that NBA scouts and executives have at the top of this draft just arenít performing right now, and itís depressing.

Anthony Edwards is shooting 38 percent from the field this month, and a lot of his scoring numbers have been racked up in garbage time when Georgia games are already out of hand. LaMelo Ball is done in Australia, and there are a ton of questions remaining about what to do with him. Cole Anthony hasnít played in six weeks and will be returning to a North Carolina team that is bad. James Wiseman decided to call it quits after three games. Tyrese Maxeyís 3-point shooting still hasnít bounced back yet. Simply put, the guys at the top of the draft just arenít really performing right now. No reason to sugarcoat it. It just is what it is.

Iíve asked front office folks ďat what point do we start considering that other prospects just might be in that top tier?Ē and received different responses. In the grand scheme, most just canít get over the physical tools of guys like Edwards and Wiseman, and the genius-level basketball IQ of Ball, despite the trioís flaws (although Ball is certainly more polarizing). If youíre a bad team at the top of the draft and youíre hunting for the biggest potential difference-makers in the NBA ó star-level contributors ó youíre always going to default to upside. Thatís why the top four guys remain the top four guys here.

But occasionally youíll get some front offices that are willing to truly go out on a limb for The Other Guys. Obi Toppin has been great offensively this year and has Dayton competing as one of the best teams in the county. Tyrese Haliburtonís numbers look monstrous in a similar manner to Ballís, even if his team sucks and the Big 12 is a worse league than the NBL. Killian Hayes started the year poorly, but has been terrific for a couple of months now. It wouldnít shock me at some point if some front offices started to come around on them.

Not great, Bob

Obi Toppin is a good name tool tho

code:
Rank 	Player, school/team 	Pos. 	Age 	Ht. 	Wingspan
1 	Anthony Edwards, Georgia 	G 	18 	6-4 	6-8
2 	LaMelo Ball, Illawarra Hawks 	G 	18 	6-6 	N/A
3 	Cole Anthony, North Carolina 	G 	19 	6-3 	6-4
4 	James Wiseman, Memphis 	C 	18 	7-1 	7-6
5 	Tyrese Maxey, Kentucky 	G 	18 	6-3 	6-6
6 	Obi Toppin, Dayton 	F/C 	21 	6-9 	6-11
7 	Killian Hayes, Ulm 	G 	18 	6-5 	N/A
8 	Deni Avdija, Maccabi Tel Aviv 	F 	18 	6-9 	N/A
9 	Tyrese Haliburton, Iowa State 	G/W 	19 	6-5 	N/A
10 	Jaden McDaniels, Washington 	F 	18 	6-10 	N/A
11 	Onyeka Okongwu, USC 	F/C 	18 	6-8 	7-0
12 	Isaac Okoro, Auburn 	W 	18 	6-6 	6-9
13 	Nico Mannion, Arizona 	G 	19 	6-3 	N/A
14 	R.J. Hampton, New Zealand Breakers 	G 	18 	6-5 	6-6
15 	Isaiah Stewart, Washington 	W 	18 	6-6 	7-1
16 	Precious Achiuwa, Memphis 	F 	19 	6-9 	7-2
17 	Kira Lewis Jr., Alabama 	G 	18 	6-3 	6-6
18 	Paul Reed, DePaul 	F 	21 	6-9 	7-2
19 	Theo Maledon, ASVEL 	G 	18 	6-4 	N/A
20 	Tre Jones, Duke 	G 	20 	6-2 	6-3
21 	Josh Green, Arizona 	W 	19 	6-5 	6-10
22 	Saddiq Bey, Villanova 	W 	20 	6-7 	N/A
23 	Aaron Nesmith, Vanderbilt 	W 	20 	6-5 	6-10
24 	Xavier Tillman, Michigan State 	F/C 	22 	6-9 	7-1
25 	Daniel Oturu, Minnesota 	C 	20 	6-10 	7-2
26 	Matthew Hurt, Duke 	F 	19 	6-9 	6-11
27 	Zeke Nnaji, Arizona 	C 	19 	6-10 	7-1
28 	Cassius Winston, Michigan State 	G 	22 	6-1 	N?A
29 	Joel Ayayi, Gonzaga 	G 	19 	6-5 	6-10
30 	Vernon Carey, Duke 	C 	18 	6-10 	7-0
https://theathletic.com/1554532/202...-on-the-risers/

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



i like halliburton a lot and i think heíll end up as a top 5 pick; he reminds me a bit of lonzo but not as smart (but who the gently caress could be you know?)

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


i don't really see why you'd think he's not as smart? Dude is a basketball genius. He's kinda Lonzoish, but I think I trust his weird jumper a little more because we have two years of him making them. I don't think he can be a point guard because I don't think he can put enough pressure on the rim, but he's pretty close to an ideal role player. Guards up and down the lineup, hits open shots, unreal passer, and pretty much always makes the right decision. He's been a +/- monster both years. Too bad his team is rear end this year (it is not actually too bad, Ames delenda est)

I do not understand Sam's love for McDaniels or Stewart at all. I like him a lot in general but when he fucks up as an evaluator it's usually because he refuses to let go of a guy's high school ranking

MourningView fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jan 25, 2020

Algund Eenboom
May 4, 2014



According to Lonzo Wire, LaMelo left the illawara hawks without saying goodbye to anyone https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2020...aft-usa-rumors/ This is only important bc I have been made aware of the continued existence of Lonzo Wire

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida





Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

Not great, Bob

Obi Toppin is a good name tool tho

code:
Rank 	Player, school/team 	Pos. 	Age 	Ht. 	Wingspan
1 	Anthony Edwards, Georgia 	G 	18 	6-4 	6-8
2 	LaMelo Ball, Illawarra Hawks 	G 	18 	6-6 	N/A
3 	Cole Anthony, North Carolina 	G 	19 	6-3 	6-4
4 	James Wiseman, Memphis 	C 	18 	7-1 	7-6
5 	Tyrese Maxey, Kentucky 	G 	18 	6-3 	6-6
6 	Obi Toppin, Dayton 	F/C 	21 	6-9 	6-11
7 	Killian Hayes, Ulm 	G 	18 	6-5 	N/A
8 	Deni Avdija, Maccabi Tel Aviv 	F 	18 	6-9 	N/A
9 	Tyrese Haliburton, Iowa State 	G/W 	19 	6-5 	N/A
10 	Jaden McDaniels, Washington 	F 	18 	6-10 	N/A
11 	Onyeka Okongwu, USC 	F/C 	18 	6-8 	7-0
12 	Isaac Okoro, Auburn 	W 	18 	6-6 	6-9
13 	Nico Mannion, Arizona 	G 	19 	6-3 	N/A
14 	R.J. Hampton, New Zealand Breakers 	G 	18 	6-5 	6-6
15 	Isaiah Stewart, Washington 	W 	18 	6-6 	7-1
16 	Precious Achiuwa, Memphis 	F 	19 	6-9 	7-2
17 	Kira Lewis Jr., Alabama 	G 	18 	6-3 	6-6
18 	Paul Reed, DePaul 	F 	21 	6-9 	7-2
19 	Theo Maledon, ASVEL 	G 	18 	6-4 	N/A
20 	Tre Jones, Duke 	G 	20 	6-2 	6-3
21 	Josh Green, Arizona 	W 	19 	6-5 	6-10
22 	Saddiq Bey, Villanova 	W 	20 	6-7 	N/A
23 	Aaron Nesmith, Vanderbilt 	W 	20 	6-5 	6-10
24 	Xavier Tillman, Michigan State 	F/C 	22 	6-9 	7-1
25 	Daniel Oturu, Minnesota 	C 	20 	6-10 	7-2
26 	Matthew Hurt, Duke 	F 	19 	6-9 	6-11
27 	Zeke Nnaji, Arizona 	C 	19 	6-10 	7-1
28 	Cassius Winston, Michigan State 	G 	22 	6-1 	N?A
29 	Joel Ayayi, Gonzaga 	G 	19 	6-5 	6-10
30 	Vernon Carey, Duke 	C 	18 	6-10 	7-0
https://theathletic.com/1554532/202...-on-the-risers/

This is a severe disrespect to Oturu imho

I don't actually have anything to back this claim up but I have to defend the honor of any Gopher that ever shows up with a first round grade.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



Algund Eenboom posted:

According to Lonzo Wire, LaMelo left the illawara hawks without saying goodbye to anyone https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2020...aft-usa-rumors/ This is only important bc I have been made aware of the continued existence of Lonzo Wire

some dude out there was just cashing checks for 6 months before this crossed his desk

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Oturu is fine in the second round but he's basically Burno Fernando and you probably should not draft one of those very high even in a poopy draft

MourningView fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 31, 2020

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida





MourningView posted:

Oturu is fine in the second round but he's basically Burno Fernando and you probably should not draft one of those very high even in a poopy draft

Wrong !!!!! Is lie!!

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



also dang rj hampton is barely clinging to the lottery in this booty butt cheeks draft

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Hampton's shooting fell way off and then he got hurt

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Here is my first crack at a BIG BOARD which I'm sure you have all been breathlessly awaiting. Still a fair bit of the season left and this is a very fluid year so this could move around a lot. This is an all time bad draft at the top but I think it's okay towards the middle and back if you're just looking for role player types.

1. Killian Hayes
2. Onyeka Okongwu

3. Cole Anthony
4. LaMelo Ball
5. Issac Okoro
6. Devin Vassell
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Anthony Edwards
9. Nico Mannion
10. Obi Toppin
11. Deni Avdija
12. Tyrese Maxey

13. Josh Green
14. RJ Hampton
15. James Wiseman
16. Aaron Nesmith
17. Paul Reed
18. Saddiq Bey
19. Aaron Henry
20. Kira Lewis
21. Theo Maledon
22. David Johnson
23. Killian Tillie

24. Jeremiah Robinson Earl
25. Jahmi'us Ramsey
26. Aleksei Pokusevki
27. Cassius Stanley
28. Isaiah Livers
29. Oscar Tshiebwe
30. Xavier Tillman

MourningView fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Feb 11, 2020

Paul Zuvella
Dec 7, 2011



MourningView posted:

Here is my first crack at a BIG BOARD which I'm sure you have all been breathlessly awaiting. Still a fair bit of the season left and this is a very fluid year so this could move around a lot. This is an all time bad draft at the top but I think it's okay towards the middle and back if you're just looking for role player types.

1. Killian Hayes
2. Onyeka Okingwu

3. Cole Anthony
4. LaMelo Ball
5. Issac Okoro
6. Devin Vassell
7. Tyrese Haliburton
8. Anthony Edwards
9. Nico Mannion
10. Obi Toppin
11. Deni Avdija
12. Tyrese Maxey

13. Josh Green
14. RJ Hampton
15. James Wiseman
16. Aaron Nesmith
17. Paul Reed
18. Saddiq Bey
19. Aaron Henry
20. Kira Lewis
21. Theo Maledon
22. David Johnsonl
23. Killian Tillie

24. Jeremiah Robinson Earl
25. Jahmi'us Ramsey
26. Aleksei Pokusevki
27. Cassius Stanley
28. Isaiah Livers
29. Oscar Tshiebwe
30. Xavier Tillman

Wiseman at 15 seems pretty low, Im down on him too but like closer to 5-6 not 15. Given the low player quality, wouldn't you want to take him just for the upside?

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Paul Zuvella posted:

Wiseman at 15 seems pretty low, Im down on him too but like closer to 5-6 not 15. Given the low player quality, wouldn't you want to take him just for the upside?

I think he's the opposite of upside, which is why I have him where he is. He has a pretty high floor as a rotation big but I don't think he has a chance to be a star. I don't think he'll be a great shooter, he doesn't really pass at all, and I don't think he has the strength or explosiveness to be an elite rim protector/roll guy in the way someone like Gobert is. You could take him in the back half or the lottery and I think it's fine, but top 5 would be pretty bad.

MourningView fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 11, 2020

Salvor_Hardin
Sep 13, 2005

I want to go protest.


Nap Ghost

How are there two dudes projected in the NBA first round named "Killian".

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012

TENNESSEE SMASH


I stan rj

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Salvor_Hardin posted:

How are there two dudes projected in the NBA first round named "Killian".

They're both French. I don't think Tillie will actually go in the first, he gets hurt a ton. Really good when he plays though.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Metapod posted:

I stan rj

I had him like six spots higher at first but he got hurt and kinda tailed off, and it's a little concerning that they didn't let him play point guard at all.

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Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

My DVR's harddrive died the weekend of the superbowl, I lost like 20 games )=

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