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WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

Never heard of countering in Operator stance either. You do counter while switching to Punisher or holding block in Punisher stance, though.

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Blackbelt Bobman
Jul 17, 2004

I don't need friends! I've been
manipulatin' you since the start!
All so I can something,
something X-Blade!




WaltherFeng posted:

Never heard of countering in Operator stance either. You do counter while switching to Punisher or holding block in Punisher stance, though.

Thereís the Counterstance ability from the Twin Stinger which is incredibly good.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Nap Ghost

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

Thereís the Counterstance ability from the Twin Stinger which is incredibly good.

Yeah I ignored how powerful this ability was in my first run, and you can really pull off some bullshit with it. It even counters ranged attacks, doesn't it? Or am I misremembering?

Just Andi Now
Nov 8, 2009

You looking for aggressive fist-to-face sparkles?!



I think it counters anything that you can actually block and maybe more besides that.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Yeah sorry - I meant the transfer from Operator to Punisher with Triangle, not Block, and then when using Punisher you can just tap the block button as well instead of holding it >_< It's just a *hell* of a lot more efficient and interesting as a way to utilize counterattacks than just holding R1 while in the Punisher stance and waiting expectantly for a melee attack or something. I'm always a sucker for utilizing counterattacks in any sort of game like this because it's usually a pretty fun/awesome way of turning around momentum, or it's even an alternative to backing off and healing if you're confident and close enough to winning.

But yeah, being able to do that simultaneous counterattack and switch into Punisher while still having full mobility in Operator really is a pretty big deal for Cloud when done correctly, since you lose no time in the switch-over and before your enemy has a half-second to recover they're either on the ground or pressured. I can barely rationalize switching stances in any other way because like, you screw up the timing and Cloud spends like a solid second on the switch-over, more than enough time for your rear end to get knocked to the ground.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Speaking of Punisher mode, I've been watching some videos of people doing combat sim with Cloud, and it bugs the hell out of me nobody bothers using the free Berserk buff you get from doing a heavy attack in punisher mode. Though to be fair I don't think the game ever mentions this

slicing up eyeballs
Oct 19, 2005

I got me two olives and a couple of limes



Moola posted:

Speaking of Punisher mode, I've been watching some videos of people doing combat sim with Cloud, and it bugs the hell out of me nobody bothers using the free Berserk buff you get from doing a heavy attack in punisher mode. Though to be fair I don't think the game ever mentions this

you can WHAT

Knuc U Kinte
Aug 17, 2004
stay out of yospos, bithc

WaltherFeng posted:

I just tried Hard mode and nope, it's not for me. At first I thought No Items meant no items in battle.

Then I realized you can't use items at all so I was half dead with no MP by the time I reached the boss.

Yeah, that's bit too extreme for me even with Chakra and Pray.

There are so many skills that restore mp on certain weapons or reduce the cost of spells. I feel like the game was truly balanced around hard mode and once it clicks itís so good. Tip: set cloud up as your attack mage with mythril sabre until you meet Aerith and have Barret tanking with lifesaver and chakra/pray . You will never run out of mp.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

True, although Chapter 14 is an absolute meatgrinder on Hard if you do all of the sidequests. You probably want to do the plot-required stuff and its associated boss fight first because you're really going to be limping bruised and bloody over the finish line by the end of it.


The part of the attack chain where he stabs his sword down into the ground and there's a red glow and a sound effect is an automatic Berserk status.

In Remake its effect is to grant a Physical and Magical damage increase but there is a corresponding defense decrease as well.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 19, 2020

Moola
Aug 16, 2006




use it just as you stagger an enemy for a free damage boost

It also only lasts about 10 seconds, so if you time things well the effect should falloff before the enemy can take advantage of your defence decrease

slicing up eyeballs
Oct 19, 2005

I got me two olives and a couple of limes



I got up and started playing just to try that out. I beat the game without knowing cloud had that alt attack when you hold square lmao. I even thought it seemed like he got ripped off compared to the other characters

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006




Man, screw this Rufus fight. This game is not for me.

Edit: Sorry for the negative energy. No one wants to read these kinds of posts so I'm just gonna peace out. I appreciate the tips!

Lobok fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 19, 2020

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Lobok posted:

Man, screw this Rufus fight. This game is not for me.

Stop attacking like an idiot when he's shown, time and time again, he's going to counter you. Pay attention, every time he fires a set amount, he reloads, during reload, he's vulnerable and can be instantly staggered with a Braver. You can also stagger him at any time with Magic. You also JUST GOT AN ABILITY CALLED COUNTERSTANCE WHICH AUTO-COUNTERS HIS ATTACKS AND PUNISHES HIM.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

Onmi posted:

Stop attacking like an idiot when he's shown, time and time again, he's going to counter you. Pay attention, every time he fires a set amount, he reloads, during reload, he's vulnerable and can be instantly staggered with a Braver. You can also stagger him at any time with Magic. You also JUST GOT AN ABILITY CALLED COUNTERSTANCE WHICH AUTO-COUNTERS HIS ATTACKS AND PUNISHES HIM.

To be fair, the whole game has been teaching you that "counters are for physicals and you can't counter ranged attacks", and all of Rufus' attacks are ranged. It's not "ALL CAPS" intuitive.

To elaborate, Rufus can be very tricky when you don't know exactly what to do. You learn not to attack him, but that means your ATB builds up very slowly unless you have Steadfast Block equipped. And you're still taking damage, of course. So you have very limited ATB that you're trying to use to juggle healing and trying to land attacks on him (and it's not easy to land Braver on him even if you know to do it (which the game doesn't tell you) because he plays keep away and Braver is so short-ranged). So chill with jumping on the guy.

Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jun 19, 2020

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

I have played this game for 44 hours and now you tell me there's a "heavy attack"

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Nap Ghost

Onmi posted:

Stop attacking like an idiot when he's shown, time and time again, he's going to counter you. Pay attention, every time he fires a set amount, he reloads, during reload, he's vulnerable and can be instantly staggered with a Braver. You can also stagger him at any time with Magic. You also JUST GOT AN ABILITY CALLED COUNTERSTANCE WHICH AUTO-COUNTERS HIS ATTACKS AND PUNISHES HIM.

Be cool

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006
THE VOLKSWAGEN DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON

WaltherFeng posted:

I have played this game for 44 hours and now you tell me there's a "heavy attack"

No poo poo. I've done four chapters in hard mode and I didn't know that. gently caress me, right?

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005



Nap Ghost

I didn't realize until a couple days ago that you could issue hotkey commands to team mates and I've got 100 hours by now

Not really a big deal though, with a few exceptions like chakra and divekick combos I usually prefer to pause and think things through

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.



I'm not yelling or anything I was- ah yeah no I see how that could be like that.


Schwartzcough posted:

To be fair, the whole game has been teaching you that "counters are for physicals and you can't counter ranged attacks", and all of Rufus' attacks are ranged. It's not "ALL CAPS" intuitive.

To elaborate, Rufus can be very tricky when you don't know exactly what to do. You learn not to attack him, but that means your ATB builds up very slowly unless you have Steadfast Block equipped. And you're still taking damage, of course. So you have very limited ATB that you're trying to use to juggle healing and trying to land attacks on him (and it's not easy to land Braver on him even if you know to do it (which the game doesn't tell you) because he plays keep away and Braver is so short-ranged). So chill with jumping on the guy.

Sure, he's unique to deal with, he's a character duel who doesn't give you obvious openings to counter. Still, even through fumbling, you can blast him with magic and then follow up on it while he's stumbling around. I realize this is definitely a game where one can get stuck in the heal-cycle, one of the reasons I am glad for Hard taking away item use, but really you're well equipped with the tools at this point to cut him down to size. His difficulty mostly comes from removing Punisher as one of your options.

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

Do you get anything important for redoing sidequests on Hard?

Knuc U Kinte
Aug 17, 2004
stay out of yospos, bithc

WaltherFeng posted:

Do you get anything important for redoing sidequests on Hard?

You get skill point manuscripts that let you upgrade your weapons to the max, which you basically need for some of the optional boss rushes.

anakha
Sep 16, 2009


Say 'Thank you, Ershin'.

Say it.




Knuc U Kinte posted:

You get skill point manuscripts that let you upgrade your weapons to the max, which you basically need for some of the optional boss rushes.

My Game Overs would probably be in the triple digits in Hard Mode if it weren't for Reprieve and the MP regen bonuses you get for leveling up certain weapons.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Rufus is really easy even on hard though

Couterstance absolutely destroys him

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





rufus is incredibly weak to a couple of specific abilities and will comprehensively and unfailingly kick your rear end until you decide to use one of them, at which point he will die immediately. If he opens the fight by kicking you around a bit and you decide to use your ATB charges on healing instead of attacking them he will immediately zip in and dickpunch you and undo all the healing you just did. If instead you just use triple slash or counterstance or something else that has a really big range and good tracking you'll immediately knock him off balance and can beat him up.

ultimately though I'm not sure how people find him all that hard because even if you completely bumblefuck his fight and spend half an hour healing and then instantly getting shot in the face, you will still eventually get limit which takes most of his health off in one shot and leaves him staggered, and which basically can't miss unless you try and use it on him mid-zip.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Hey just out of curiosity how many Moogle Medals did you guys have by the time you meet Moggie in Chapter 8? I just ask because I had... like 13-14 both time, and I'm reading this guide and the guy says he had 24 Moogle Medals and we should have at least that many? I've made a very sincere effort to comeb over ever nook and cranny of every single map before I moved on from a place, and I am pretty sure I did not miss any boxes; hell, some boxes I destroyed more than once because they respawned while I was doing quests or something, who knows. I just don't see how one can get TEN more than I got when I didn't miss a box or a chest, but hey, who knows...

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

kaworu posted:

Hey just out of curiosity how many Moogle Medals did you guys have by the time you meet Moggie in Chapter 8? I just ask because I had... like 13-14 both time, and I'm reading this guide and the guy says he had 24 Moogle Medals and we should have at least that many? I've made a very sincere effort to comeb over ever nook and cranny of every single map before I moved on from a place, and I am pretty sure I did not miss any boxes; hell, some boxes I destroyed more than once because they respawned while I was doing quests or something, who knows. I just don't see how one can get TEN more than I got when I didn't miss a box or a chest, but hey, who knows...

I don't think I had nearly 24. Basically, the first time you see him you probably want to get:
-Weapon
-Scarf
-Key item
-Cloud & Aerith's manuscripts.

If you're a few short, you get a medal every time you do the box-smashing minigame that will unlock as you do side quests in Chapter 8.

slicing up eyeballs
Oct 19, 2005

I got me two olives and a couple of limes



do we get any new moggie treats in hard mode, or do the medals become useless except for buying merch to sell for gil that we can't spend on items

e: also lol I went from 40 to 49 going straight from the end of the game to the new combat sim stuff (and getting repeatedly owned)

Kongming
Aug 30, 2005



You need to rebuy sidequest items like the graveyard key when you replay chapters but otherwise medals become useless once you've bought all the weapons/manuscripts.

anakha
Sep 16, 2009


Say 'Thank you, Ershin'.

Say it.




Schwartzcough posted:

If you're a few short, you get a medal every time you do the box-smashing minigame that will unlock as you do side quests in Chapter 8.

Yep, that's how I did it. Cheesed out the remaining medals I needed to clear out the store in Chapter 9 by starting the minigame then existing ASAP.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

anakha posted:

Yep, that's how I did it. Cheesed out the remaining medals I needed to clear out the store in Chapter 9 by starting the minigame then existing ASAP.

I wouldn't recommend this, though. Spoilers, you get to visit Moggie again in chapter 14 and it doesn't really have new stuff, so if you grind medals to clear it out in chapter 8 then every medal you pick up after that is worthless.

slicing up eyeballs
Oct 19, 2005

I got me two olives and a couple of limes



if you're playing normal mode, dump them all for elixirs imo. you shouldn't need them but man they're handy.

anakha
Sep 16, 2009


Say 'Thank you, Ershin'.

Say it.




Schwartzcough posted:

I wouldn't recommend this, though. Spoilers, you get to visit Moggie again in chapter 14 and it doesn't really have new stuff, so if you grind medals to clear it out in chapter 8 then every medal you pick up after that is worthless.

Already finished Hard Mode, so no worries about spoilers.

slicing up eyeballs posted:

if you're playing normal mode, dump them all for elixirs imo. you shouldn't need them but man they're handy.

This is what I ended up doing with the medals I collected after Chapter 8, which ended up being very useful in Chapters 17-18.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Hah yeah, I took a dive in the silly box-smashing game like an 8 times to get enough medals to buy Tifa and Barret's manuscripts, I mean, after all, I had no clue when I was really going to buy from Moggie again (if ever) and I thought it'd be better to be safe than sorry... And I certainly don't see additional moogle medals as "pointless" or anything, I mean, each one can basically just be traded for an Elixir, right? That's a really big deal, I mean, elixirs are a LOT more useful in this game than like, 98% of all the other FF games, or it feels that way anyway.

I guess in part it's because ATB feels like a much more scarce resource when you're fighting a difficult boss battle in this game. I mean, to me, it's the #1 reason why I died on each of the 3 or 4 occasions or whatever - because I should use an elixir and I don't because I want to save them, heh. Seriously, it's because of how the ATB/real-time fighting system works, in a sense. I'll be fighting a boss battle and get engrossed in the rhythm of it - attacking, blocking, healing, dodging, attacking again, etc... I'll get hit by some strong attack and go to heal before seeing that I actually used up the last of my MP just a moment ago, and I don't even have enough to cast cure, let alone cura to properly heal the 2000HP which I need.

This is where the game actually gets a bit tricky. Hi-potions barely heal enough in-battle to warrant spending the ATB on them, but they're also the only potion item you can get away with using without worrying about running out. Thing is, if you have like no MP and >300hp, it feels really tedious to have to replenish your HP, then fill the gauge up *again*, then replenish your MP, and then depending on the boss fight you might have to go right back and replenish your HP again after that, and it's very easy to get stuck in a sort of "hole" where creating offense can get extremely tough.. An elixir is a way out of this hole, but not one I am inclined to want to use... Perhaps I should be less uptight about using them, though.

Marmaduke!
May 19, 2009

Why would it do that!?

I basically used all my elixirs fighting one man and his dog, chopping away at his health rather than fighting him the "correct" way, but I'll have to see how that fight is on hard mode with no items!

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

The final boss used up all my Elixirs and it was absolutely worth it.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



On a random note, I am back at the iconic playground in the Midgar wastelands between Sector 7 and Wall Market... And you can FINALLY go down the slide! It's so awesome! In the original, Cloud could kinda walk up the slide, as I recall; now he goes down the slide

Really though, I wanted to talk a little about Cloud's backstory in the original game which, uh... I feel kinda both blown away and stupid right now, because I just watched this one key backstory cutscene for the first time - the one with Zack breaking out of the tanks at the Shinra Mansion with Cloud, and them hitch-hiking to Midgar. Wow. If it wasn't the first time I saw it, then it was the first time in at least 20 years, and even if I did see it back then, I could not have understand the story well enough to fully "get" what I was watching and properly contextualize the scene with one incomplete unguided playthrough at the age of 12. Leave it to FFVII to hide the most important and critical missing piece of the main character's backstory as a goddamn secret optional cutscene near the very end of the game!

I actually feel like a bit of an idiot, because I never really questioned how Cloud actually got to Midgar, or how he got himself and his own identity mixed up with Zack, I just always assumed it was one of many holes in the characters histories that you just have to fill in for yourself. I mean... How did Tifa actually meet Barret and decide on environmental terrorism as her path in life? How does RedXIII speak without lip muscles? Why is Yuffie's fly always open? What exactly is Cait Sith? These are all questions that beg answers, and as far as we know I don't think we ever get any, though I eventually did understand that BOTH the cat and the big moogle thing were toys, but just the toy cat was actually Cait Sith, the big moogle apparently being a robot he controls. But that seems strange, since Cait Sith himself is a robot that Tseng controls, so... I can't help but think that bad localization/translation is at fault for that one. And probably some of the others.

So yeah, really shocked to see that scene, especially the brutality of Zack's death. I know that this is going to wind up being important, because it was included in an article recapping all the important events of FFVII that you should keep in mind for FF7R, and that entire scene was like... new to me. I totally understand why the fangirls were all about pairing up Cloud and Zack, now - that never made sense to me because Zack was always more like a phantom, or a shadow - more Cloud's doppelganger than a character and person in and of himself. But he is his own man, as the cutscene shows! drat.

kaworu fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 21, 2020

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


kaworu posted:

Leave it to FFVII to hide the most important and critical missing piece of the main character's backstory as a goddamn secret optional cutscene near the very end of the game!

I mean it's so hidden because it wasn't in the original release. I don't know if it was added for the american release or another release, but it wasn't in the original Japanese. So yeah, until the game came out in english, Zack was just the other guy at Nibelheim.

Admiral H. Curtiss
May 11, 2010

I think there are a bunch of people who can create trailing images. I know some who could do this as if they were just going out for a stroll.


Onmi posted:

I mean it's so hidden because it wasn't in the original release. I don't know if it was added for the american release or another release, but it wasn't in the original Japanese. So yeah, until the game came out in english, Zack was just the other guy at Nibelheim.

Are you... sure about that? That seems like a very crucial piece of information to leave out, and the version difference page here (warning: spoilers) does not mention it.

Schwartzcough
Aug 12, 2009

Don't tease the Octopus, kids!

That has always been what I heard also- that the Zack scene was not in the original JP version, got added for the US version, and then was included in the JP "international" version. I seem to recall that Ruby and Emerald WEAPON weren't in the JP version either...

But now that you mention it, I don't know if I've ever seen an "official" source for that!

Edit: well there's this:
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wik...sy_VII#Original

quote:

The North American and PAL releases of Final Fantasy VII made substantial changes to the original Japanese version. Several areas of gameplay have been made more difficult by adding in new bosses. Random battle rates were cut down, and Materia swapping between characters was made easier. New flashbacks of Tifa meeting the semi-conscious Cloud on a train station, and a flashback of Cloud and Zack escaping Nibelheim, were also added in.

International
The game with the changes made to the North American version was re-released in Japan as Final Fantasy VII International

Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 21, 2020

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kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Huh, that's crazy - it really was not in the original JP release It absolutely was in the Japanese PC/"International" version, that's actually the one I played my first time around and I do remember it... I think it likely was a mistake that they didn't include it initially, pretty sure that scene was why Zack became so popular in the first place, what with having a tragic death and Cloud crying to the heavens.

I'm hoping that FF7R does some more interesting things with Cloud's character - they sorta have to - because I felt like they kinda failed to develop what kind of person Cloud was after his memories returned and his personality came back together. We don't really get many scenes (or any, really) that exhibit any sort of meaningful change in him, it felt like. So I am sort of expecting FF7R to do a better job of this, for better or worse. The Cloud I've seen so far up to Chapter 9 (and I am now precisely back to where I was -- but this time with nearly 3-star Luck Up materia, and an Elemental materia that has already proved useful and is now a 100% mainstay of my loadout for Cloud.

Also, a question about weapons: I always use a new weapon long enough to learn a given skill for a character, but I'm not really expecting to see a weapon beat out the Buster Sword for Cloud in this game, for instance, and I think it's actually drat cool that it works that way, different weapons having different strengths instead of each new one making the previous one redundant. I'd have liked to see more stuff from the weapons (the mods specifically) reflected physically, though; seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, in a way. When you add materia slots to the Buster Sword, it'd be very cool if you can see more than just the first two linked slots. I mean, I know it looks very classy as is, but still.

I actually used the Iron Blade more than I should have in part because it looked REALLY cool on Cloud's back. A single independent materia, a single command materia, and a single magic materia - yellow, purple, green - one of each, all in a row. It really was a cool look, I cannot have been the only person to do this. It's a good thing the Buster Sword looks like, permanently cool with just a support materia and a magic materia - nicely understated combo. Tifa (I think) either started with an independent materia and a command materia on her gloves, or I added one... But regardless, the two colors looked fabulous on her glove in those early cutscenes. I truly do love that there is enough attention to detail that they show the currently equipped materia on a given character in not just the gameplay but the cutscenes, even - very cool. With all this coolness, I'd have liked some cool visible weapon mods, y'know?

Random note... The size of materia always kinda messed with me, and I can't be the only one, right? When I played the initial game, I always imagined an orb of materia to be like... the size of a baseball or something, thats what it looked like in the FFVII gameplay - which as we all know is perfectly proportioned and to scale. I did later realize (watching Advent Children way back when it came out I think) that materia orbs were actually smaller and in truth about the size of... a golf ball maybe? Does that sound right? Maybe slightly bigger, but not by much. Something you could slot into a sword. Or stick in your hair behind your braid.

holy poo poo they spent ~$100 million on marketing this game in America... Wow. What a freaking genius and bold move, whomever worked for Sony and managed to pull that off, spending $100 million to market FFVII as the killer app for the Playstation when it first came out. I mean that is a LOT of money nobody spends half that much marketing even the most massive games anymore, even adjusting for inflation...,

kaworu fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 21, 2020

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