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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Escobarbarian posted:

This is extremely untrue about the D&D episode
Eh. That episode is obviously a high water mark in Pierce being a repugnant piece of poo poo and pushing the group away, but like he's still with the group the next episode and 1 episode later has Pierce attacking the actual group members and not one of the extra characters who they too were cruel to. As I remember it the D&D episode isn't necessary to the storyline, its just one point of many.

And again, we're still talking about priorities here. If our takeaway is "Racism is bad and should be removed unless its a very funny episode or key to the plot" that feels wrong.

Escobarbarian posted:

Every single post or tweet about this I’ve seen from a black person has been “stop distracting from the conversation about reforming police and the wider systemic issues prevalent in America with this weaksauce bullshit” so

If anyone is using their energy on this instead of that and not capable of doing two things at once then that is indeed bad.

But it actually doesn't seem like deleting these episodes took that much energy or capital and we'd just be talking about Perry Mason or something if not this.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jun 28, 2020

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Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

STAC Goat posted:

If our takeaway is "Racism is bad and should be removed unless its a very funny episode or key to the plot" that feels wrong.

We're disagreeing with this part, dude

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!


Oven Wrangler

Escobarbarian posted:

This is extremely untrue about the D&D episode

Not really, Neil is never more than a background character and "Pierce does something bad and the group wants to kick him out" is a plot point that gets reused in multiple episodes across seasons 1-3.

I like that episode but Abed should have never let Pierce play without a character sheet, how can he steal Neil's sword in the first place if there's no dexterity stat to roll against? Plus he had outside knowledge of the module, that's about as close to cheating as you can get in DnD outside of loaded dice.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Arist posted:

We're disagreeing with this part, dude

I know, and I've yet to understand why. Is the fight against racism made harder or worsened by this action? If the argument is that doing this somehow keeps us from doing more I think that's purely a question of what we do next/also.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

I know, and I've yet to understand why. Is the fight against racism made harder or worsened by this action?

Honestly I think it does a lot to convince people unaware of the real issues that the left really do just care about small fry bullshit like this instead of major societal issues. “oh antifa are idiots, they just want to change what we call bedrooms and censor tv”

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

My point is, I don't think we should make stories less accessible for containing problematic content, I think we should discuss why the content is problematic and work to prevent it from happening in the future.

And yes, it does make that fight harder by turning attention away from legitimate issues.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

real recognize real






If streaming services removing some blackface jokes is distracting people from real issues, then those people have poo poo priorities already which is a bigger problem than whether or not a paid service wants to be associated with certain content.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



If we all stop chanting "Defund the Police" and re-elect Trump because Tina Fey took down 4 episodes, then I agree, we hosed up badly and are some weak rear end performative assholes.

But the right and those people who would dismiss one argument because "look what they care about" assume we can't do more than one thing at the same time. This one was actually so easy none of us even thought about it until it was already done.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






STAC Goat posted:

But I'm less interesting in punishment than I am making it clear that casual blackface jokes aren't cool and not doing them again. If the argument can be made that deleting these beloved episodes of beloved sitcoms because they were casually racist will INCREASE casual racism or allow it to persist I'm all ears.

I think the very fact that blackface virtually disappeared from public discourse for over half a century and then suddenly came back as if it were no longer a big deal is all the argument you need. History isn't just the things that happened in the before time long long ago, it's the living events that shape our lives here and now, good and bad. Pretending the bad, uncomfortable ones never happened, or happened in bizarre and unique circumstances to strange oldtimers and could never happen to we progressive moderners, is exactly how they keep happening.

What happened in those episodes was absolutely gross and misguided at best, which is all the more reason to leave it available as a monument to its failure and a continuing plea for vigilance. The episodes should come with an unskippable content warning and disclaimer to that effect in whatever venue they're made available, but I think outright removing them is a grave, though very understandable, miscalculation.

For what it's worth, I'm speaking as someone who's only seen maybe a dozen eps of 30 Rock (and none of the offending eps) and never watched Community.

E: okay this thread moves fast, sorry if this is dragging the issue out even farther.

McSpanky fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jun 28, 2020

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

Why god?



Grimey Drawer

ONE YEAR LATER posted:

I like that episode but Abed should have never let Pierce play without a character sheet, how can he steal Neil's sword in the first place if there's no dexterity stat to roll against? Plus he had outside knowledge of the module, that's about as close to cheating as you can get in DnD outside of loaded dice.

Broke: We should let people stream these episodes
Woke: We should pull these episodes because they have blackface jokes
Bespoke: We should pull these episodes to protect the integrity of D&D

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

real recognize real






PostNouveau posted:

Broke: We should let people stream these episodes
Woke: We should pull these episodes because they have blackface jokes
Bespoke: We should pull these episodes to protect the integrity of D&D

kek

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



McSpanky posted:

I think the very fact that blackface virtually disappeared from public discourse for over half a century and then suddenly came back as if it were no longer a big deal is all the argument you need. History isn't just the things that happened in the before time long long ago, it's the living events that shape our lives here and now, good and bad. Pretending the bad, uncomfortable ones never happened, or happened in bizarre and unique circumstances to strange oldtimers and could never happen to we progressive moderners, is exactly how they keep happening.
I'm not entirely sure I agree that there's a direct line between something being common, something being condemned, it disappearing, and then some people joking about it ironically. I mean, I'm open to hearing it and it seems like an interesting debate, but I'm not sure i can blame these incidents on people not doing blackface for awhile.

But I'm also just at a loss as to what leaving the episodes up does to stop this. Because to me at best it sends a mixed message that this isn't SO bad as if they had done something that really got them in trouble and removed.

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!


Oven Wrangler

PostNouveau posted:

Broke: We should let people stream these episodes
Woke: We should pull these episodes because they have blackface jokes
Bespoke: We should pull these episodes to protect the integrity of D&D

They don't roll for initiative, there's no mention of THAC0, they dont even bring up positioning and character reach, and why is the DM rolling for the PCs? Throw it in the trash.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

real recognize real






At any rate, this derail has fully run its course imho. Nobody's mind has really been changed, so there's no point in continuing the debate when we've already gone in circles like four times. Everyone made their points and we should move on and leave the conversation to the folks who stand to be offended or not by the content in question.

That said, if y'all really want to continue this conversation, I'm not against someone making a thead for it. Honestly, it's not unlikely we may see more content being removed from services in light of the 30 Rock and Community stuff, anyway.

sidenote everyone is rad asf for being so civil on a topic that easily could have become a super hot mess. I was honestly expecting to see reports the longer this went on, but there haven't been any.

Zachack
Jun 1, 2000





Fun Shoe

^saw this after I posted.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

Why god?



Grimey Drawer

ONE YEAR LATER posted:

They don't roll for initiative, there's no mention of THAC0, they dont even bring up positioning and character reach, and why is the DM rolling for the PCs? Throw it in the trash.

Oh poo poo Abed is a hack fraud DM

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Community's first season is the best

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

real recognize real






Milo and POTUS posted:

Community's first season is the best

tea

The Kingfish
Oct 21, 2015




The opening scene in Homecoming season 2 (where the main character lady gets picked up by a cop) is more unrealistic than anything that happened in season 1.

TheOrange
Jan 11, 2007

!


Sleeveless posted:

Season 2 of The Twilight Zone is so goddamned good and a huge improvement on season one, it absolutely nails the balance of science fiction and social commentary and a lot of them have happy or at least bittersweet endings. Most episodes being 30-40 minutes is such an improvement.

Glad I'm not the only one who decided to watch it. I've only watched the first three episodes so far and thought the first two were just okay, better than the 1st season, but the 3rd one I really enjoyed.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS


One thing that's going to be interesting with the episodes that are being removed / altered is to see if they get rid of them in the digital versions we "own". It's always been in the ToS that technically we're just licensing them, so they could modify/remove at any time.

As of right now I still have the D&D Community episode showing in Vudu.

Edit - Holy crap, maybe it's time to sell my Blu-Ray set $250 on eBay, and mine's still sealed.

Medullah fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jun 29, 2020

Popelmon
Jan 24, 2010

wow
so spin


Holy poo poo season 4 episode 11 of Person of Interest is so loving good. How does this show keep getting better?

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust


Grimey Drawer

Yeah it makes me wonder why Westworld is so boring in comparison

Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE


I can't believe I'm agreeing with sleeveless. Season two of The Twilight Zone is so far really loving good. You all should feel bad for making me post that.

Sleeveless, in case you are reading this please do not misunderstand, I still would prefer if you would gently caress off and never comment here again.

Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE


I should specify that I am only two episodes in but so far both episodes are better than the entirety of season one.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Arist posted:

"Erasure" is not a punishment! It's not even an apology! Erasure is just pretending we never had those issues in the first place and wiping your hands clean of any reason to actually make amends or be better!

Saying, "This was in 2011" as if that's somehow unthinkable, as if there was no casual racism then, is ridiculous. I've also seen plenty of takes from black people that stuff like removing sitcom episodes and not using the word "master" in the context of bedrooms is wholly performative anodyne nothing that's just wasting political capital in the present moment.

lol thanks for the statistical analysis

using random black folk on the internet to bolster your opinion is kinda distasteful dude

Arist
Feb 13, 2012



Oven Wrangler

I trust those "random" black people a hell of a lot more than I trust anyone here, and I only brought it up because that reaction has been pretty loving ubiquitous from everywhere I've seen it. I haven't even gone looking for it, it's just that universal a reaction.

This conversation was supposed to be over. Let it die.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






didn't see the post about ending it. but as someone whose black i wanted to put my two cents in. people should argue their case without saying someone whose black agrees with them, at least without citing them at least.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?



hosed up if true

nate fisher
Mar 3, 2004

We've Got To Go Back


Mu Zeta posted:

Yeah it makes me wonder why Westworld is so boring in comparison

Reminds me, as someone who thought WW season 1 was good but vastly overrated by many, and season 2 to be a disaster outside of a few episodes, how did season 3 turn out? Is it worth watching?

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Are they gonna remove the episode of Mad Men where Roger wears blackface

Ariza
Feb 7, 2006


I think I'm 20 scandals late for subtitle talk, but I just started watching the From Dusk til Dawn series on Netflix and the subtitles are perfect - [in Spanish/Native Language] dialogue translated to English. I don't know if it's a Netflix show and that's why they're set up properly, but I'd like it to be a standard. I hate when they put [Speaking Spanish] over the baked in translation.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




It's an El Rey network production.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

real recognize real






It's probably because it's a Robert Rodriguez property meant for his Hispanic American TV network. Netflix has plenty of shows that just don't translate stuff that was never originally subtitled when a show aired.

e: sidenote is El Rey even still around bc I haven't heard much of anything about shows on it
e2: sidenote 2 lucha underground owns

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Been watching Corporate. It sneaks up on you on how good it is. The cinematography was in your face with how good it was from the start (especially compared to most comedies ), but the kinda subdued semi realistic take on corporate ennui (versus something like Better Off Ted's absurdity) took a little while for me to get used to.

The main characters don't go out of their way to be likeable or create the family based dynamics you see in every sitcom, even the ones based outside of the home. But its been a long time since I've related to something as hard as Season's 2 Concert episode, whose entire plot is the main character struggling to go to a late night concert on a weeknight. Lol that poo poo was hilarious and gently caress if it isn't what happens when you hit 30.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust


Grimey Drawer

Corporate looks like if David Fincher did a comedy

ShakeZula
Jun 17, 2003

Nobody move and nobody gets hurt.



nate fisher posted:

Reminds me, as someone who thought WW season 1 was good but vastly overrated by many, and season 2 to be a disaster outside of a few episodes, how did season 3 turn out? Is it worth watching?

I didn't hate Season 2 as much as most people, but I think S3 is better. Maybe the best season. It's a very different show though.

I did find it funny that the initial talk around Westworld was "the first two seasons are just a prologue to the show Jonathan Nolan really wants to make," and now we're at that show, and it's just "Person of Interest 2."

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Not worth your human time.

It's pretty and expensive, but it's poorly plotted nonsense. Half the scenes are trailers for future scenes -- as is the Bad Robot way -- and the rest is dramatically inert. It really doesn't have much to say, to be honest, so I'm not sure why it spends so much time trying. It'd be much better if it just embraced being pulp trash, rather than trying to obscure that.

Also, side bar, I'm not sure why something being pretty and expensive is particularly notable. Quite a lot of TV is pretty and expensive, but at the end of the day I'd rather watch something cheap but dramatically compelling - like, loving Vagrant Queen of all things - than another season of Westworld.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004

an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol an idol



Grimey Drawer

nate fisher posted:

Reminds me, as someone who thought WW season 1 was good but vastly overrated by many, and season 2 to be a disaster outside of a few episodes, how did season 3 turn out? Is it worth watching?

it’s bad op

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Big Bad Voodoo Lou
Jan 1, 2006



esperterra posted:

e2: sidenote 2 lucha underground owns

AEW has gotten me back into wrestling for the first time in over 15 years, and I keep hearing how great Lucha Underground was. All the episodes seem to be on the free Tubi streaming service (which also has the '80s G.I. Joe and Transformers cartoons as well as newer series), so they are definitely on my list.

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