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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I'm curious why indie online animators seem to want to go for series more often than one-off shorts. I would go insane, from drawing

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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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I hate Cars 3. Lightning McQueen is 45, and an actor named owen wilson. In cars 3 he is 78 and his back has an impacted disc.

I also hate cars one because given infinite technology and resources and art and writers and all of this, it is a movie about a car dragging goo down a road. It may have been better, and cheaper, to make with live action cars and/or miniatures, with CGI eyes on top. They could have made something with an elf, or a strange island or something with a murder plot. How about a story about a magic piano who plays himself. Get it together, Pixar

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Lightning also has his body replaced by a younger, fitter body at the end of the movie, so who knows how hat factors into the equation

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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I'd be interested in everyones top 5

Mine are Feherlofia, Dumbo, Rango, One of the Nightmare Before Christmas/Monkeybone/Coraline trilogy, and Happy Feet. I feel like a great cartoon feature is hard to pull off.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Barudak posted:

1) The first flip book animation you make
2) Everything else

I once spent months animating a "foxtrot" fan cartoon in a program I never figured out how to export anything from.

WRT lists: Kinda surprised spider verse is on so many top fives! I thought that it was great technically but that the themes...........were sorta weak

Also B&tB is obvious, but I'm recently of the opinion Little Mermaid is better. B&tB feels almost like the first in a long series of clones

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Pick posted:

I actually find Little Mermaid extremely weak outside the music and Keane's animation. The backgrounds and color palette alone are almost TV level.

I would actually say the opposite! The early digital colors in Beauty and the Beast feel very flat and weirdly yellow, even in dramatic scenes they aren't pushing the lighting to what it needs to be. Mermaid feels rich visually, possibly in spite of the much of the tiny toons design sensibility, because they're riding on a century's worth of knowledge about how to put stuff together optically.

Keane's animation might be doing the most for it though. Ariel's acting is much, better than Belle's, she makes specific expressions and her personality is conveyed by pantomime for half the movie. Belle is either stern or she is smiling. She also feels flatter than Ariel from a writing standpoint because she is not actively pursuing her desire, although that's probably more down to which of these existing folk tales fits neater within a hollywood screenwriting paradigm.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


One of my favorite animated things is....The Mascot!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg_vWCUxAHc

It's an odd short from the 1930s about, get this: toys who come to life! What are the toys doing while we aren't looking? Also, very intricate puppets and possibly the first use of go-motion

FunkyAl fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jul 28, 2020

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Phylodox posted:

I went and re-watched a slew of movies from the Disney renaissance back at the beginning of the pandemic, and Atlantis really just left absolutely no impression on me whatsoever.

The one that surprised me was Pocahontas. Turns out, it's a really gorgeous, charming movie that's absolutely murdered by the fact that it's a horrible interpretation of actual events. If they'd gone the Avatar route and just fictionalized the whole thing, it would have been amazing.

And maybe tone down the goofy animal sidekicks a bit, but that's a constant complaint in most Disney movies from that era.

Speaking of which, why isn't avatar on more lists, it's the biggest, baddest film hollywood ever cooked up. You don't want to mess with Avatar!

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Phylodox posted:

Because nobody cares about Avatar.

Unless you're talking about the Nickelodeon show, in which case everyone loves it.

If that's true, why are there five sequels?

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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There had better be, otherwise I don't know what those mooks have been spending my tax dollars on

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Bootleg Trunks posted:

Does ralph Bakshis rotoscoping count as animation

Of course, and incidentally the invention and use of the rotoscope coincide with the invention what one might consider modern application of weight, secondary action and acting theory, as opposed to more freeform "rubber" "hose" cartoons. All the nine old man crap. They rotoscoped snow white, they rotoscoped gulliver's travels....Many backgrounds on popeye are rotoscoped 3d sets!

Which, also, is why Avatar is animated. So is gollum and star wars! Even the old ones. These are all silly fantasies and should not consider themselves diminished because it is 85% the same as a pixar movie. So is wall-e, it is 15% fred willard. And the animation is the best part of either terminator movie! C'mahn

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I registered a treatment of Space Jam 2 with the writers guild of america.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I think pixar should make a documentary with digital cameras, or a gritty realist neonoir. Give a crew of new hires three cheap cameras and see what happens. It should be rated R. There should be no Computer Goofery.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


The first Pixar film with an all-gay police force

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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I think the spongebob movie stole a shot from my thesis but I'm waiting til it comes out to be sure.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Post on Pandora!

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


That's actually what the renaissance should be called. The actual renaissance was from roughly the thirties to the forties.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Chicken Little is better than Bolt!

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


C'mon, Bolt is dull. The hamster is the same hamster that was in frozen, olaf. Chicken Little at least has some aliens and is based in some mythic "fairy tale" archetypal tradition.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

That seems way too early, especially given it's generally considered to be finally catching up after the dark age of animation in the 50s to the 70s.

You have to consider though, animation had been around since the 1910s and was founded on a lot of precinematic forms (zoetropes, projecting ghosts in churches, painting etc) and that the synthesis of all these existing elements is a true rebirth of them, culturally, formally, artistically, whatever adjective, into an all new form. And the 30s and 40s are where the form starts to refine itself and people are toying with how all of these work best. Sound was HUGE for animation in terms of understanding timing and breaking things down into "beats." The concept of a keyframe is based in sheet music. And so specifically with regard to disney, their first features and technically experimental shorts around them represent both more interesting subject matter and more of a genuine renaissance than the 90's revivals. And it's shared with more than just the company, as all the people making them were all over the place, half of Dumbo is Betty Boop Guys. The 90's is a new wave to be sure, it could be called an enlightenment, but a lot of it resembles rococo.


Hedrigall posted:

I’ve lost my lion and am sad 😿

I saved all the old avatars for after the joke has run its course

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I'm glad a24 is doing some hazbins, I think that's positive cartoon news. Maybe they will do risky movies as well. Or theatrical shorts! Or...cartoons with singing lobby candy.

Does Bakshi have a public gallery (in times of health)? I'm right north of new mexico

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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I bought a popeye color blu ray and folks, it is beautiful. The scripts seem a lot more refined than the ones in the 1930s, The animation is loose in a very solid sort of doughy, spotty sense. A lot of them really feel like visual jazz, there's one where they go to rio and the music really knocks that one up some pegs. If only all cartoons were short form, thaetrical, and everyone made bank.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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It's dumb to make the same thing over and over again.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Timeless Appeal posted:

I dunno... between the comments about them being uneducated and wasting their money along with being five years off from Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah, it's kind of hard to get a good read on it for me.

Right after the lyric you posted, they sing

When Other Folks Have Gone to Bed

We Slave Until We're Almost Dead


Which reinforces the ironic nature of the song, but not any less than the footage of the men being intercut with the majestic elephant performing the same tasks, getting off the same train etc. You will also notice they are working at night in the thunder and rain, which really obviously draws home that this is terrible hard ruthless work.

And more to the point, people will talk forever about the crows and this song but fail to pick up on the fact that Dumbo is African and born into slavery. They put his mother in a cage! Later, right before the "creation myth" portion of the pink elephants sequence, we see a camel elephant hybrid walking amongst the pyramids as if to really reestablish, elephants are not from here. Someone stole them. His entire story is about suffering against a cruel, degrading environment and ultimately transcending it. You can argue if the moral is really an effective solution to his problems, but you shouldn't ignore what the film is actually depicting.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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paradoxGentleman posted:

I feel like even if I was making an ironic song, I wouldn't put in such directly self-insulting lyrics like "We never learned to read or write", even if it was true, and especially not "We don't know when we get our pay, and when we do we blow our pay away"

The song isn't the point of view of an individual, it's a dramatic telling of the circumstances of these characters' lives. They're like actors singing that to the audience because it's important that we know how poorly everyone involved in the circus is treated, and how hard they work. "We don't know when we get our pay, and when we do we blow our pay away" is a literal description of their circumstances, and a pretty neat summation of ways free blacks continued to be exploited in a post "reconstruction" south.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Timeless Appeal posted:

Yeah... I feel like the defense is also removing historical context. The racism of Song of the South isn't the same as the racism of the Crows or "What Made the Red Man Red?" The latter is reducing a race to buffoons and playing up stereotypes for laughs. The Crows in many ways are pretty benign on first glance because they're proactive and clever characters. The offensiveness in them exists in their intent as minstrel characters.

The racism of Song of the South is more insidious because Uncle Remus is like the crows an actual character and he's not necessarily bafoonish. But the film exists with a more idealogical current that there is something inherently subservient and animal like about Blacks. It's fair to say that "Happy Roundabout Workers" isn't doing the same whitewashing of slavery and sharecropping as "Zip-a-Dee Doo Dah" does. There is an acknowledgement of the workers as doing hard work, but the context of the song also acknowledges a sort of hopelessness for them.They cannot read or write. They waste all their money. They only want to sleep and eat. On top of that, they're being depicted similarly to the golem like henchman from Pinocchio.

I think it's fair to say that it exists in a continuum of really racist stuff, by a lot of the same people and the same studio, but that the intent of these two films is very different. It is difficult to imagine what the intent of song of the south is, being a white adaptation of afro-american folklore, but i havent actually seen it.

Dumbo seems sympathetic yet ignorant, And I think the whole of the production, the rain and the music and the imagery, is trying to "hammer" the point home, the circus, this thing you 1942s man take for granted, is built on misery. Yes, they waste all their money because that's how exploitive institutions of labor work, they pay little and if they themselves establish a store or trade they would likely upcharge liqour and food. The pitching of a circus tent bears a striking resemblance to the construction of a railroad, where labor conditions were as bad as any time else, and exploited immigrant, native and black american labor. Though Dumbo is born on a happy choo choo train, the train and railroad are in this and later scenes firmly depicted as oppressive machines, the cars literal cages. A couple camels are there, bringing to mind biblical "pyramid" schemes, And the hoisting of the tent is like raising the sails of a ship in a storm. I get the sense maybe it's "happy" in the eyes of the child dumbo but it's pretty unambiguously tragic by the end. So basically, yes they are depicted as hopeless but in a realist depiction that might reach the heart of a kid better than some lie would, but I think they're far from golems. Or else golems are people too.

E: It's also like, an ironic counterpoint to singing mining dwarves

FunkyAl fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 18, 2020

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Timeless Appeal posted:

I don't mean this as offense, but I think we're going to inevitably talk past each other on this point. Song of the South isn't obtuse in its view of Blackness through Uncle Remus as a character. The actual Briar Rabbit stuff in a vacuum is genuinely considered fine outside of the overallt thorniness of Harris's appropriation of black folklore. But I think that Song of the South has a clear view of Blacks that while not aggressive, sees them as naturally caretakers and workers. I think that combined with coming off the since censored racist imagery in Fantasia, its hard for me to swallow your lead.

There is stuff that exists, by all of these people working in different places for years, that is much more racist than even uncle Remus. At the same time, I don't think it's impossible for them to be making contradictory statements, or have conflicting beliefs. They're two different works.

quote:

I also just don't think much thought went into Dumbo at all.

Why?

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Timeless Appeal posted:

I don't know man, I'm not really going to fully respond to this post because your last post was talking about how you have not seen Song of the South and blindly stated that we cannot infer any viewpoint on race which is silly, and now we're apparently talking with expertise on it? Death of the author is a lens to view art, it's not movie discussion law. You can absolutely use another text that gives an idealized version of life for Blacks in the South to inform your understanding of another text that includes Black or Black coded characters.

That's not my point, my point is that we can infer viewpoint based on how the subjects in a film are depicted. And I'm not trying to talk about song of the south at all! I'm just pointing out what is in Dumbo.

And I am not trying to play down the contradiction either. I randomly googled "Scrub me mama with a boogie beat," Which is a cartoon written by the inventor of bugs bunny that is black stereotypes being lazy and eating melons as the brunt of the humor. But this isn't how it's depicted in Dumbo, at least in the scene we're talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75mur1xF7U Watch and judge for yourself I guess

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Timeless Appeal posted:

No, that's a mischaracterization.

I'm not just saying that it's unclear. It's unclear because someone were trying to present the scene as this universally brutal segment in which the workers can only be read as unhappy victims expressing their displeasure. That's not true. Dumbo is having fun. The other Elephants are sometimes laughing. The few animals who actually help, the camels are also not unhappy. It's unclear because the lyrics of the song are contradictory. But it is rainy and dark and there is a juxtaposition against the very childish train. I do understand how it can be viewed as an ironic song in which the the workers are in on the joke, but the self-depreciation betrays that a bit. The original reading was being way too selective.

And I'm not saying Song of the South is racist so this is racist. I'm saying that we can contextualize a film from 80 years ago in a larger body of work and the time. So when somebody is looking at it and says, "Well... they're clearly being ironic because who would be happy?" then we can look at this other movie the same studio made a few years later that is literally implying Blacks are happy with the state of slavery and reconstruction. That when we use comparisons between Blacks and animals to make our point we can look at this other movie that more directly makes that comparison between animals and humans. Because it informs us.

You have a real point with the use of the comparison to animals because that's an undercurrent that pervades a lot of period "funny animal" material, including mickey mouse, bugs bunny, goofy, speedy gonzales bosko, etc. And it's true dumbo and his mother (sometimes) are smiling, but I take that as nievete and trying to be a good mom. My point is more that the production, the sound and editing, dramatic claps of lightning, is what is emphasizing feeling and meaning. They are explicitly juxtaposed with the elephants in the scene, but the elephants are also our points of empathy, something recognizably noble and human.

And despite being both "Disney" films, I'd argue Disney as "auteur" is far less present in Dumbo just due to the way both of these were made. Dumbo was a book that became a unique script written by two artists working at Disney's studio, whereas Song of the South was driven by Disney Himself, as a way to make animation cheap by filling it with live action. So yes, it's true that both were signed by a name whose original Song of the South was apparently too racist for 1940s film censorship boards, the stuff I'm talking about is the product of teams of artists who organized a labor strike during the production of their movie.





Walt Disney did not draw or animate this. Dumbo was directed by someone named Ben Sharpsteen. All Disney's drawings were stick figures with the words "sarcastic horse" and "manic mailman" printed on them.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Timeless Appeal posted:

Look man, your original post was scolding for not judging what's on screen. I understand the images you posted as paintings evoke something very clear, but its not consistent as a film. Like your read on Dumbo as a slave parable doesn't prove your point about the song being ironic, it proves mine. Dumbo is a blissfully ignorant worker, only scared when faced with death, and wins by becoming the best slave. If Dumbo is in parallel with the Black workers than the song isn't ironic. Our main character literally is a happy hearted roustabout.

And a bunch of white artists comparing their relatively privileged positions to that of animals and black men is racist.

I'm not trying to scold, I'm just pointing out what I think is there. He's ignorant because he was born yesterday. And I don't think the point of the ending is that he stays a slave either, he learns to fly, steals the show from and humiliates his ringmaster, joins the army, and signs a hollywood contract! And while armies and contracts are forms of slavery, he at least doesn't need the circus anymore. A little fantastical, less realistic than dumbo's continued struggles with alcoholism, but fine for kids.

And FWIW, animation at that point was pretty much sweatshop labor. The minorities, immigrants, and women who inked and painted this cartoon probably felt like they were getting worked hard.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Neon Noodle posted:

rich uncle skeleton

Disgruntled goat had his moments.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


She Ra was invented 50 years ago to sell barbies


Which one is this from?

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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If you ask me the "pinocchio" audio commentary is a little too G-rated

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


fauna posted:

the lovely heavy traffic, my absolute favourite entry in the bakshiverse



Looks like I know what blu ray to buy next!


Timeless Appeal posted:

Pinnochio's hella bawdy.

This, and they keep buttering everybody up and praising the technical achievement almost without acknowledging anything going on in the story at all.

One upside of this commentary is discovering that, since I have had one conversation with Eric Goldberg, I am now one degree away from Leonard Maltin.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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paradoxGentleman posted:

I feel like we're talking about different things. Surely you're not referring to Disney's Pinocchio? How is that one bawdy?

There is also a lot of children smoking cigars in pool halls, which may not be "Bawdy" but certainly is a scene of children smoking cigars in pool halls

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Timeless Appeal posted:

There's also more butts from the kid being spanked to the can can dancer puppets flipping up their skirts.

It's not Fantasia which is like 70% Disney artists finally getting to show off all they learned at their nude modeling sessions and using the high-browness to justify drawing naked ladies or Bambi focuses in on Thumper's horny face. But it definitely has the adults more in mind than Snow White.

Snow white's still pretty adult but in a vague mythic, german expressionist way. It's full of death (and life).

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Popeye is like the perfect codex of human behavior and ignorance

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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Hedrigall posted:

And all the Lord of the Rings movies you love! But they’re the animated ones

Not for nothin', the animated one held my interest longer than any of the other movies or the books

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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I feel like the toys should be alive WHEN andy is playing with them, like it's his imagination. The other way is just silly

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FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

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They shot toy story four to look like real like with hyperreal lens simulation and a million lights. On the one hand this create kind of an interesting metatextual aspect, on the other hand if said light affect is only possible through billions in computer infrastructure, eh

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