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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Robindaybird posted:

I feel kind of weird to admit I just find Bakshi's animation very unpleasant to look at.

Yeah I find it very unappealing. One of those argued over "12 Animation Principles" is "Appeal" which basically just comes down the taste, and some studios have very rigid style guides for what they think assures appeal. But it's like fashion, something that everyone thinks is the look of the year will seem hopelessly out of date in a few years. While other looks will suddenly come back into fashion.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




starkebn posted:

I wonder if there's any other western animation team out there that has seen Spiderverse and is angling to do something as interesting

NPR (non photorealistic rendering) is the big new thing for studio rnd teams now that weíve basically broken through the uncanny valley. Mikros, Reel FX, and DNEGs feature division are all trying various styles and tv studios are trying to ape more budget-friendly versions of those styles. Orange and Marza in Japan have been the most successful but many of the technical directors at those studios are English speakers from western vfx studios and are sharing their techniques (within reason of their NDAs) with the rest of the community.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011





Welp, time to learn how to animate deer...

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Bakshi is definitely one of those guys who if he was younger would be learning Toon Boom and Blender to make animated film completely on his own. Itís ridiculous the amount of labor that went into traditional animation, like Bakshi had to start off as a cel cleaner, whose job it is to remove tiny pieces of dust from the animation cels. Even more laborious and mindless than painting cels...

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




nankeen posted:

i really am sorry for bringing the topic of the shoah into this light-hearted thread like i did, i know there are other posters here with similar history who just want somewhere to talk cartoons and am so sorry for shattering the mood. i was (incredibly) unaware of bakshi as an artist, the content and the context of his work, and knowing that i'd probably liveblog the thing itt in my own irritating way i tried to choose the film that, from its wikipedia summary, sounded least loaded. please understand i was posting in real time and actually don't have anybody nearby to talk to about this very specific topic irl so just offloaded emotionally on the forums as i am wont to do. i promise not to do it again in this thread, it's not the place for it. i might talk bakshi, but will keep it light.


I enjoy the effort posts on that stuff. I'm working on a post about some animation documentaries I watched recently, especially since on of them is unavailable in the west. Animated movies are movies, they can deal with serious stuff and we can talk about them in the thread devoted to it.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Over the winter break I rewatched my two favorite animation documentaries, "Persistence of Vision", about Richard William's 30 year attempt to make a feature animated film in London , and "Joy In Motion", a documentary about Miyazaki's mentor Yasuo Otsuka, his career, and the history of the development of animation in Japan. Thought I'd do an effort post about those two films while they're still fresh in my mind.

Persistence of Vision is available to rent and view online for a modest fee, so I won't go as much into that. Joy In Motion, however, was only available to buy through the Ghibli museum website and is region locked to Japan, so I'll post more screenshots from it since it's an excellent documentary most people will never get to see.

Here's where you can rent Persistence of Vision: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/persistenceofvision

Examples of Otsuka's animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXXvjJ7BkOY

Examples of Williams animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08QfGxzvZA4

The similarity between both men, Williams and Otsuka, is that they really are Animation Directors, and not Directors. Both were obsessed with the technique of animation and its expressive capability, but neither really have the talent for directing a feature film or crafting the story. Luckily Otsuka realized that early in his career and let his talent be guided by Miyazaki and Isao Takahata (who needed someone like Otsuka because he himself couldn't draw.) Williams had no one around who would make use of his animation skills in a feature role (until Roger Rabbit, late in his career) so he tried to do it on his own, combining his meticulous eye for detail and disdain for budgets and schedules on an "opus" of a project.

You can tell pretty early on in the documentary that Williams was never that concerned with narrative. He talks about himself as a craftsman who has finally "mastered" animation, and a theatrical film will be his "masterpiece", in the style of the old painters, to prove to the world that he has mastered this medium. The feature also served as a creative outlet. He ran a very successful studio doing commercials and opening titles which generated acclaim and awards. That work was profitable (at one point he says he'd sunk 3 million of the profits from commercials into The Thief and the Cobbler) but animators who worked with Williams say he felt money was out to "destroy his life."

Because of the long production time, the motivations for the film and the industry landscape around it shifted over the decades. Williams initially wanted to to "save" golden age animation, by bringing superstar Hollywood animators over to London to train his crew. Animation in the 70s and early 80s was a pretty scarce, and the work that existed was tv productions whose budgets paled in comparison with what Disney used to work with (and even the Disney budgets during those years were more limited.) By the time Williams actually found funding from Warner Brothers, the animation biz was healthy again. And adding insult to injury, Katzenberg employed one of his famous strategies of beating a competitor to market by releasing Aladdin before William's film was due to come out. (Katzenberg would later pull this stunt with the film "The Wild" made in Toronto, by touring the facility that was making it and then producing and releasing Madagascar a year before The Wild was set to hit cinemas.) But William's really doomed his own film by not sticking to the agreed upon budget or schedule and not having completed a storyboard before animation production commenced.
Like Otsuka, Williams spent his dotage teaching animation, and much of his career can be summarized as a passing on of techniques that would later shape the look of films everyone remembers.

"Joy In Motion" trace Otsuka's career from the earliest features at Toei in 1958 through his current role teaching animation to new recruits at TMS (the studio that animated all the best looking episodes of 90s cartoons.) For a prominent anime figure, Otsuka has very western sensibilities. He shakes his head at the overly complex character designs that anime since the 80s have been known for, finding it a waste of the animators time. He considers motion to be of primary importance to animated media, and is sad that anime series in the '70s used 5-8,000 drawings, while today's shows only use 3-5,000 drawings per episode.

















He collected army cartoons during America's occupation of Japan and Mad Magazines during his career that influenced his style, and was chosen as Animation Director of the first Lupin series as he shared sensibilities with the creator.













You can get a sense that Otsuka would be a much more pleasant person to work with than Williams or Miyazaki. He is not the taskmaster. He has high standards but delivers his notes in a "why don't you consider it" way. Probably a lot of that is he doesn't have the pretensions of a director that many dissatisfied animators do.



Speaking of, Otsuka was there to see the "transformation" that happened with Miyazaki from his animator to director days. On the series "Future Boy Conan", Miyazaki has transitioned from talented animator to a genius control freak, the kind that did layout for every scene, which was unheard of, and then corrected all the key animation after he didn't approve of Otsuka's pass. When Ghibli was founded, Otsuka moved away from animating and concentrated more on teaching and producing, becoming a backbone of the network that animators in Japan use when moving onto new projects. His approach is always to identify talent and ask "Why don't you consider it?" in a non-aggressive manner. The main producer at Studio Ghibli, Toshio Suzuki, credits Otsuka for bringing together the right people at that studio, and for negotiating Miyazaki and Takahata's salaries.











Otsuka on Miyazaki's "Transformation" during Future Boy Conan






There's a number of other interesting bits in the documentary, such as a casual mention of a Union effort among japanese animators in the late 60s. Japanese animation currently doesn't have a union so I assume it wasn't successful, or maybe one existed for a short time at the feature studios, and then disappeared once tv series led to a huge opening of other studios. Rates never recovered from the cheap prices set by Osamu Tezuka's Mushi Pro, which itself was started as a rival studio to Toei after Tezuka's contract there expired. It'd be interesting to see how much better the working life of an animator would be in Japan today if a union persisted.







Overall, Otsuka seems to have a wisdom that William's lacked. He understood his strengths but also his weaknesses, or was made to understand them by the titanic talents that surrounded him. He exemplifies that kind of "elder statesman" that industries benefit from tremendously.



Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Pick posted:

Did it "get away" with being a quality program or are you still just excited by poop jokes

I also remember it being a lot of fun. Many of those shows dealt with adult topics. I remember I learned about the concept of credit card debt from a Disney cartoon episode.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Phylodox posted:

It really is flabbergasting how good it is. Who would have thought that a TV series sequel to a Disney princess movie would actually be great?

The folks at Mercury Filmworks really do some great animation.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheJakeneutron/status/1222094777098948609

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Ballz posted:

I'm sure it's been discussed in previous incarnations of this thread, but the fan-made cut of Thief and the Cobbler is definitely worth seeking out, just for the glimpses of Williams' artistic genius along with the disappointment that he was unable to finish his magnum opus. Persistence of Vision is pretty much required viewing to accompany the film to fully grasp what went into making the Thief and the Cobbler, and what went completely wrong.

RIP Richard Williams

Yup! That documentary was made by the filmmaker responsible for the ďRecobbled CutĒ. Itís watchable but not a good film, because Willians was just interested in incredible sequences. Commercials and short films were his perfect medium, itís too bad he was so hell bent on wanting to make a feature.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Robindaybird posted:

Anyone seen the trailers for call of the wild?

Now before anything else, I'm very pro using CGI animals instead of real ones for what would be potentially dangerous stunt scenes, but there's things when there's no danger and Buck's just interacting with Ford or running that it's very clear he's CGI or 'enhanced' and the one scene of the Husky suddenly scowling like a human that looks loving awful and obvious.

Why are we doing this when there's no need for it?

Itís not enhanced the way the new Lady and the Tramp is, itís full cg all around. Client probably wanted more acting out of the dog, plus all those sledding shots it wouldnít be practical to use real animals for. I donít mind the look though Iím not at all interested in dogsled movies

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The Mitchells vs The Machines was such a better title...

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




starkebn posted:

With how different the cg looks to the mocap actor I can't see that it would help to have the actor at all? It's something for Ford to interact with I suppose, but the posture and joints don't match up with the animation in any way.

Yeah this kind of stuff is mostly just to help Ford act against something and give the animators vague reference. Itís especially important for the eyelines.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I went to an animation mixer last night and man, I didnít realize the extent of reverse outsourcing. Vfx companies are out in force to grab Canadians to work on Bollywood movies and cartoon series from south east asia. Also did you know weíre getting a Rock Dog 2 and 3? From that movie that made 24 million against a 60 million production budget? Well animators in Montreal do, cause theyíre the ones working on it.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Superstar talent like Dice Tatsumi also donít enjoy being part of a big corporate machine, thatís why they go form their own studios.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Pixeltendo posted:

The movie is awkward but Bowler hat guy is the best.

I took an animation class with the guy who was lead animator on Bowler Hat Guy and who was super proud of the animation they did on it, but apparently Jeffery Katzenberg hated the character. He was reduced to a smaller part in the movie because Katzenberg hated him so much, and every time footage of that character came up in reviews that Katzenberg was in, he would call for that character to appear less and was just totally disgusted that he was necessary in the movie.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Roth posted:

Didn't Katzenberg leave Disney and join Dreamworks in the mid to late 90s or was Meet the Robinsons just in development hell for a long time?

Hmm I thought it was Katzenberg but it might've been Lasseter. The guy who got to make decisions anyway, haha.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I really like the style of The Willoughbys. I haven't been able to watch it all in one sitting though, the overall feel is of a Roal Dahl book that's just not quite up to his usual quality (i know its not actually based on Dahl.)

Oh it's based on a book by Lois Lowry. I like her work. But it feels like she was heavily influenced by Dahl for this one.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




So this movie Animal Crackerz that was finished but without a distributor for years is finally getting released by Netflix. Designs and lighting look okay but the animation is surprisingly crap. I thought it was done by Ilion in Spain, but apparently it was done by a completely new studio the creator set up in Valencia. If its their first feature I can see why it looks limited, but if these are the shots they're picking for the trailer I'm kinda worried about what the rest looks like.

https://youtu.be/UXkFG1S2yCM

Ccs fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jun 15, 2020

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Oh. Oh no.

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/anime/s...Wq29QFGHIBST8XU

These are first images so maybe they still have to figure out the subsurface scattering on the characters skin or something, but this is not a good introduction. Marza's work on the new Lupin 3d movie is leaps and bounds ahead of this. Goro Miyazaki strikes out again...

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The trailer takes a real turn in the last few seconds haha. I wonder how much is actually produced in China? I know that Dreamworks yeti movie was supposedly a co-production with Pearl, but in the credits it seemed they only did some concept art and matte painting, and everything else was done in California.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




teagone posted:

I'd be down! I just burned through S2 last night with a few friends. It was alright; it didn't hit me as hard as the first season, but I did love the backstory reveals for Shadow Weaver and Bow. George and Lance are amazing, haha. Love the "lunch" tattoo. I guess it being only a 7 episode season didn't leave much in the way for developing character growth and storylines for the rest of the cast in SUPER exciting fashion, but I still was pretty in it. Not sure when my friends and I are going to start S3 yet though, as I've got other plans this weekend.

[edit] As an aside

https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/1278799917436276736

I wonder what the cost of living is around there. That... seems disproportionate, based on what I've heard about living/property costs in Japan.

Yeah its super wack. KyoAni pays salary, whereas most animators are freelancers that get paid by the frame ($3 per drawing that usually takes 45 minutes to draw, plus the time for retakes/corrections) or shot (usually around $50 per shot, where the number of drawings can vary based on length.) So for the first 2 years or so as an in-between animator, they're only taking home $3 per hour, then as a full animator they might start making between $8-10 per hour.

Whereas I, some guy with nowhere near the talent of half these animators, started out getting paid $15 per hour as a junior animator in Canada, and now make $23. Nowhere near a princely sum or anything, but fine.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Megera posted:

I made $11/hr doing cleanup animation for my first industry job. Even though it required less talent than animating, it was STILL underpaid, especially because it was in Hollywood.

drat don't they have guild rates there? I looked at the Animation Guild rates for juniors and it starts out at 70k a year, which is probably more than I'll ever make in my career in Canada. But that's also why studios are trying to get all their movies done abroad now, aside from the huge players like Disney.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




FunkyAl posted:

I'm curious why indie online animators seem to want to go for series more often than one-off shorts. I would go insane, from drawing

If they get a series then it gets funding so the animation can be subcontracted. Then they get to be more of showrunner types, doing much looser drawings and directing as opposed to all parts of the process.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




FunkyAl posted:

I'd be interested in everyones top 5

Mine are Feherlofia, Dumbo, Rango, One of the Nightmare Before Christmas/Monkeybone/Coraline trilogy, and Happy Feet. I feel like a great cartoon feature is hard to pull off.

If weíre talking global animation I think all my picks would be Satoshi Kon movies and Spirited Away.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Kind of fitting since the film was made in Canada, at Mikros in Montreal. I know people who worked on it, though I hope they don't go to cinemas to see it in theaters as Quebec still has the highest covid cases in the country.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




flashy_mcflash posted:

Yeah what? Is this A24's first TV venture?

It seems they produced 9 series in 2019, though only one this year so far because of the virus. This looks to be their first animated project which might be because they can produce it without the risks live action filming has right now.

edit: geez they really gave me an avatar avatar. i thought i was safe cause i've never paid for an avatar before.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The vfx budget for an Avatar live action series would have to be goddamn huge to actually pull off anything like the cartoon. The feature film effects even looked sorta poo poo, now imagine that budget spread over 10 episodes. Even if they spend double what The Witcher got it'll still look like garbage.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Spoilers for Mulan I guess but this sequence could be from Kung Pow
https://mobile.twitter.com/slamacao/status/1301994108664328192

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




The Saddest Rhino posted:

I have seen enough recent Chinese movies and TV to know they would do this exact same poo poo, but still am surprised Disney did it, lmao

People in the comments said the Chinese Mulan movie from 2009 is way better
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4OSxjVARC0

I dunno, I havenít seen it. I just watched a Kung fu movie called Shadow the other day by the director of House of Flying Daggers. Would have liked to see him do Mulan.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Macaluso posted:

Why didn't they have her do that fancy move to kick the arrow back when it was in flight from being shot from the bad guy down there? Why did whoever that is need to catch it, then gently toss it into the air before she did that move?

More complicated I guess for her to kick it in such a way that it would turn around and then fly back toward the guy

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Robindaybird posted:

yeeeeah - Xiran pointed out it seemed like they tried to make Mulan into Chinese Elsa, and good god did no one take five seconds to make sure the match-making make up look halfway decent?

I think this goes back to the original where the makeup is supposed to seem super out of place and over the top on Mulan, but in the cartoon its more a metaphor for how she has no interest in the ceremony. In live action it just looks like they made it purposefully garish.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




17 years is an incredible run. I wonder what their production process was like vs other shows that made it only possible to do 7 seasons over that length of time. Is it all written by a couple of guys and they just take all the time they need?

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I watched Toy Story 4 the other day and when 3 came out someone made a point about how the toys go further and further in each movie. In the first going downstairs is a huge deal with major stakes. Then they start going outside and to a bunch of locations. By 4 theyíre basically breaking the primary rules of toy-dome and going where ever they want and even endangering humans. Itís a decent movie but it stretches the reality of the world so much that you canít believe that no one has figured out that toys are conscious. Especially when whenever a makeshift toy is created it doesnít know it needs to follow rules and tries to throw itself away.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Regalingualius posted:

Do they have any more live action remakes lined up?

Vfx studios in London are working on previz and concept art for The Little Mermaid right now, and are in post-production on a prequel for 101 Dalmations called Cruella.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I rewatched the original "The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh" on Disney plus recently, as it was one of my favorite movies as a kid. I had never realized there's no real narrative to the whole thing, just low key vignettes that end with a bittersweet segment where Christopher Robin goes off the school, signifying he may never see these characters again and is forgoing the imaginary life of a child to join regimented society.

Apparently the film was made out of combining a number of shorts they had created with the characters, which makes sense. It feels like if it was devised as a feature in the first place they would have felt there needed to be an ongoing plot.

Now I'm wondering if I should watch the 2011 film that was Disney's last foray into traditional animation.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Ghost Leviathan posted:


I used to watch the cartoon that accompanied that and it has a special that's actually interesting, The Search for Christopher Robin, that DOES have enough of a plot to have spoilers

That was another of my favourites as a kid. I was surprised to see that itís almost universally reviled by people who review Disney sequels. It probably wouldnít hold up on a rewatch as the tone is quite different from the source material, but I think itís great for the target age group. Some really nice animation from TMS in Japan too.

Itís a bit overwhelming to see the entire New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh on Disney plus. As a kid those things came 3 episodes to a vhs and the video rental store only had a few of them, which I watched over and over again (I suppose they were also broadcast on tv but I didnít have cable). Now I could actually watch them all online a click away but Iím too old to enjoy them.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Yeah I was confused at the lack of Eeyore, I could have sworn he was a main character in at least one segment. Then I learned they made another short film, A Day for Eeyore, in 1983 and included it on the VHS for Many Adventures. So the version I saw as a kid included Eeyore, but the "theatrical" version didn't, so that's the version on Disney+.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Sir Lemming posted:

As a parent I can confirm that basically all of the Winnie The Pooh stuff slaps. I didn't like the style of Christopher Robin's eyes in the 2011 movie, but otherwise solid. The Disney+ transfer of the New Adventures is really gorgeous too. Really makes me appreciate how it was actually done on a decent budget compared to other '80s TV animation.

Yeah Disney really invested in those early shows like Pooh and Gummi Bears (which i don't think i've ever seen.) Then WB tried to match it with Tiny Toon Adventures and Batman. And then slowly the budgets got reduced. I remember a commentary track where Bruce Timm laments that Superman was the last show he worked on with a full orchestral soundtrack. I remember seeing budgets being around 350,000 per episode back then, which got whittled down to about 100k by the time of shows like Avatar. Though you've still got shows with crap animation like Family Guy costing millions per episode because of the voice talent.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I'm just amazed they're moving it up. Maybe they think going against the crowd will leave it one of the only options for the people who still risk going to theaters.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




PierreTheMime posted:

This exists already as an unrelated Netflix film and is actually not 100% terrible.

Yeah, this was on of Cinesite's first features. They're gonna be animating a lot of second-tier animated features in the coming years due to this new partnership:
https://www.cartoonbrew.com/feature...res-196171.html

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