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Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



FlamingLiberal posted:

also if this were like 2005 we would have had someone like Johnny Depp as a wacky Rich Uncle Pennybags

Probably. Now it should probably be a stealth Big Short sequel directed by Adam McKay.

The Klowner posted:

if the entirety of harry potter had been released 30 years before, it would be fondly remembered and people would more readily make excuses for the shoddy writing and horrible author

I agree. It's not that other fantasy authors are any better, they're just older. LotR is pretty racist when you get down to it, all the "men of the West" exceptionalism and the Haradrim as swarthy Muslim invaders who serve fantasy-Satan, etc. Likewise CS Lewis, whose characterization of the Calormenes isn't far off. Then there are the true assholes like Lovecraft. It's way easier to separate the odious political aspects of their work now that their books are many decades old and they're all dead.

Though, Rowling has the dual liability of being a more recent (and still-living) author, and injecting a lot of anti-racist and social justice-oriented material into her books. It's easy to interpret a worldview from Harry Potter that's inclusive and empathic towards difference. The villains are explicitly bigots and fascists, and racism in particular is a central evil. Then, of course, you have her empty performative poo poo, "Dumbledore is gay, actually!" So, she intentionally curated a fanbase that's aligned with progressive social causes, then went on to double-down on her TERF bullshit.

It's the kind of self-immolation I can only compare to Joss Whedon. They're both figures who built their entire reputation on "progressive" genre storytelling, before outing themselves as vile abusers or bigots who are also immense hypocrites. Say what you will about HP Lovecraft, but there was never any ambiguity about the kind of man he was.

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Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Xealot posted:

Say what you will about HP Lovecraft, but there was never any ambiguity about the kind of man he was.

Actually, for a while there was, especially given August Derleth basically seized control of Lovecraft's work within a few years of his death and kept close control over it until his own death in 1971, to the point that he would edit out a lot (though not all) of the more racist stuff from his republishing of Lovecraft's work. It's only after Derleth died and Lovecraft's republications in the 70s emerged along with a new boon in scholarship on him that a lot of his more racist stuff came to general light. And even a lot of the scholars who became big on Lovecraft and led the field in the 80s and 90s and wrote the early stuff on his racism have had a strong resistance against the newer wave of debate over Lovecraft's racism to the point they've had a major split with the scholars of the 00s and later.

But that being said there's also the case where I feel like every two or three years for at least the past decade there's a big wave of people "discovering" that Lovecraft named his cat the N-word and stuff like that, but that's more just the nature of social media trends.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Byzantine posted:

Twilight Struggle?

Wasn't that one of those ponies?

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

I was kinda surprised that there hasn't been a recent big pushback against Lovecraft, but I guess it depends on what makes you mad. If the thing that really gets under your skin is the idea of a terrible person getting undeserved success and happiness, then Lovecraft doesn't set that off because the man was famously miserable.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


Another fun dimension of Lovecraft is that there’s a few bits of correspondence from his later life that indicate he heavily recanted his earlier racism and bigotry, but he of course died relatively young and never really got around to writing much from this matured lens.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


For all that he was a racist gently caress, he does seem to have pulled his head out of his arse somewhat in later life. Also became a socialist. So perhaps better to look at him as an example of how even someone with abhorrent views can move towards redeemption through self-reflection and personal growth.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



mycot posted:

I was kinda surprised that there hasn't been a recent big pushback against Lovecraft, but I guess it depends on what makes you mad. If the thing that really gets under your skin is the idea of a terrible person getting undeserved success and happiness, then Lovecraft doesn't set that off because the man was famously miserable.

Right, I think this aspect and the fact he died 80 years ago insulates people's feelings a bit. But also, the subject matter of his fantasy work helps...it's not humanizing or endearing fiction. The characters aren't celebrated or lovable, in fact the exact opposite. I think it'd be more difficult to reconcile if someone with his outlook wrote moralizing children's fiction about a boy wizard you're supposed to like. "Herbert West and the Chamber of Shub Niggurath and Her Thousand Young."

The pushback to Lovecraft seems to be more of a postmodern re-interpretation of his writing than a rejection of it. True Detective turned an elder god death cult into a symbol of entrenched white social power in the South. Get Out works as a kind of inversion of Re-Animator, where the dread fascination with black bodies becomes fetishistic rather than grotesque. And Lovecraft Country's whole deal is taking the racism of his writing head-on and using it to make points about systemic racism. You can basically take Lovecraft's perspective as a writer and make it the villain's POV in adaptations of his work without really betraying anything.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



mycot posted:

I was kinda surprised that there hasn't been a recent big pushback against Lovecraft, but I guess it depends on what makes you mad. If the thing that really gets under your skin is the idea of a terrible person getting undeserved success and happiness, then Lovecraft doesn't set that off because the man was famously miserable.

There kind of was one last year around the airing of Lovecraft Country, which is also kind of funny considering the show had basically nothing to do with Lovecraft. Around the same time it came out that one of the big Lovecraft scholars, Robert M. Price, was a huge racist and misogynist, but he'd been that way for a while and it just happened to become more widely known. I think the most recent wave before that was 2017.

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Another fun dimension of Lovecraft is that there’s a few bits of correspondence from his later life that indicate he heavily recanted his earlier racism and bigotry, but he of course died relatively young and never really got around to writing much from this matured lens.

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

For all that he was a racist gently caress, he does seem to have pulled his head out of his arse somewhat in later life. Also became a socialist. So perhaps better to look at him as an example of how even someone with abhorrent views can move towards redeemption through self-reflection and personal growth.

This was very partial. It basically amounts to the last few months of his life, around the 1936 election, writing a few letters where he seems to tone down the anti-Semitism a lot, even speaking well about the chief rabbi of NYC and heavily criticizing Hitler. But at the same time he also wrote letters at the same time where his views on Blacks were as bad as ever, and his views on Asians arguably got even more virulently racist as his life went on. So I think the claim that Lovecraft gave up racism as he got older are false, but there's at least a tangential argument that he got less anti-Semitic.

If you have almost two hours, the most recent episode of the podcast Voluminous (put out by the HP Lovecraft Historical Society) reads one of those letters and then goes in-depth analyzing it and his views: https://www.hplhs.org/voluminous.php

Casimir Radon
Aug 1, 2008



Shageletic posted:

They did a grest job making Hugh Jackman a piece of poo poo and a loser. The precise reason why there will never be another good Vin Diesel movie bc his ego cant handle it.

Not sugar coating him being a lousy dad, even past the midpoint of the movie really helped. Any other movie would have had him sticking the kid back with the grandparents as a misunderstanding or something.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Real Steel is probably my highest differential of my opinion versus popular opinion. It was a good lil flick but everyone seems to have disliked it

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

I think for the most part it was just overlooked, reactions weren’t hugely negative IIRC.

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