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AlexanderCA posted:Isnt this exactly how you operate in supressed circumstances? I remember its how the serbians fought NATO planes with some succes at least. Ya, I overestimated the competence of Iran's military, so I've corrected my assumptions. Also, yes, I'll admit to being wrong when I'm proven wrong. You have any more kind words for the state of Iran's military? MagicBoots fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jan 11, 2020 |
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Jan 11, 2020 05:21
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MagicBoots posted:Whoever was suggesting they where flicking their radar on and off to avoid SEAD missiles has played to many video games. this is generally what they do though
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Jan 11, 2020 05:26
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MagicBoots posted:You have any more kind words for the state of Iran's military? Wtf are you talking about?
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Jan 11, 2020 05:28
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VikingSkull posted:this is generally what they do though Yeah its basic procedure iirc. A radar is like a flashlight in the night. It allows you to see bit turning it on gives away your position.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:29
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So the radars on the air defenses aren't really being flipped on and off, it's actually always "on" once the transmitters warm up. You just flip from "Stand-by" to "transmit" basically it keeps the system powered on but cuts off the power to the antenna so you're not radiating any energy. The SA-15 "Tor" system is a very modern air defense system, probably with a lot of automation involved. It was fielded in the late 1980s as a soviet response to low altitude B-1B and the BGM-109G Ground Launched Cruise Missile. MagicBoots posted:Whoever was suggesting they where flicking their radar on and off to avoid SEAD missiles has played to many video games. I'm guessing the Iranian air defense network was already on high alert for a counter attack, so it's quite possible that they were doing this, as it pretty much SOP for any air defense battery. Espc an SA-15 crew since the main counter attack would probably have been Tomahawks, which are exactly what the SA-15 was designed to counter. source: I was an Electronic Warfare technician. So yeah, if anyone has any questions about how IADS works, go ahead and pick my brain.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:29
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the Tor system has an optical targeting system specifically so they can go dark and still function, too
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Jan 11, 2020 05:32
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Julius CSAR posted:So the radars on the air defenses aren't really being flipped on and off, it's actually always "on" once the transmitters warm up. You just flip from "Stand-by" to "transmit" basically it keeps the system powered on but cuts off the power to the antenna so you're not radiating any energy. Fine, I'm wrong, this is a clusterfuck that killed a ton of innocents and I'm mad. It should not have happened.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:33
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MagicBoots posted:Fine, I'm wrong, this is a clusterfuck that killed a ton of innocents and I'm mad. It should not have happened. it's ok to be wrong, getting into the specifics of warfare is arcane and takes a special breed of nerd
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Jan 11, 2020 05:34
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Julius CSAR feel free to  on the topic
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Jan 11, 2020 05:34
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AlexanderCA posted:Wtf are you talking about? Nothing apparently, sorry about the outburst.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:40
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VikingSkull posted:the Tor system has an optical targeting system specifically so they can go dark and still function, too It does, but this happened at night and as far as I can the tell the back up is TV/EO only, I've never seen reference to it using IR/NV. That said, I'm sure it could, but as a back up system, I'm thinking it's probably TV/EO only. From a Russian air defense journal circa 1996 quote:The Tor-M1 SAM system uses a TV optical tracker, which autotracks target angular coordinates, as a backup tracking system. The system is heavily automated though, and these dudes were probably already jumpy.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:42
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Its cool, your cool. Always respect people recognizing facts over ego.
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Jan 11, 2020 05:42
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MagicBoots posted:Fine, I'm wrong, this is a clusterfuck that killed a ton of innocents and I'm mad. It should not have happened. I agree! And I was just correcting general misconceptions! There's not a whole of threads on SA where having an ECM tech is a good idea lol
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Jan 11, 2020 05:46
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Julius CSAR posted:It does, but this happened at night and as far as I can the tell the back up is TV/EO only, I've never seen reference to it using IR/NV. That said, I'm sure it could, but as a back up system, I'm thinking it's probably TV/EO only. yeah it's definitely not something they would have been using, just pointing it out as backup to the flickering radar strategy though if it had IR capability and they saw a 737 and fired then lol
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Jan 11, 2020 05:47
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sucks to be the guy who "accidentally" shot down the plane that the Iranian government is going to throw under the bus
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Jan 11, 2020 05:52
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show us ur ICBMs
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Jan 11, 2020 06:01
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cant believe trump is somehow forcing the iranians to say they shot the plane down
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Jan 11, 2020 06:17
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Fojar38 posted:cant believe trump is somehow forcing the iranians to say they shot the plane down He's save scumming the whole universe.
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Jan 11, 2020 06:33
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RIP to the meth'd out sam operator grunt. Thought of tomahawks and 176 people died.
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Jan 11, 2020 07:10
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toggle posted:show us ur ICBMs ICBM usually right after I wake up in the morning.
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Jan 11, 2020 07:15
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Seems weird that just yesterday Iran was claiming it was absolutely definitely not shot down. I think there is some clear room for improvement in their process for figuring out what went wrong in a plane crash.
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Jan 11, 2020 07:47
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Im Ready for DEATH posted:Questions from me, an idiot, how many generations does it take for Iranian-Canadians to just become regular Canadians? If they bang other Iranian-Canadians is it forever? If they bang other races/nationalities when can they no longer call themselves I-C? Ask the Boston """""""""""""""irish"""""""""""""
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Jan 11, 2020 07:55
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Barudak posted:Julius CSAR feel free to Hi. I’m pretty good at reading things and picking up the gist. It’s a lot of fun to have so many really knowledgeable people commenting and disambiguating a lot of really technical or historical things, in a way that’s not up for debate or discussion, but instead is just educational. I’m sure it could be funny too. I’m just that much more than casual about the process being something that is actively participated in, not just upvoted. You know, with thought and even levity or something?
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Jan 11, 2020 08:24
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Elendil004 posted:Iran's military says it "unintentionally" shot down a Ukrainian passenger jet, Iran's state TV reports. I was called an islamophobe in the CSPAM thread for suggesting a shootdown was plausible so I guess I have to go back and gloat now
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Jan 11, 2020 09:33
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Avynte posted:RIP to the meth'd out sam operator grunt. Thought of tomahawks and 176 people died. At least he can look forward to a medal for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service from the Great Satan.
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Jan 11, 2020 12:53
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SplitSoul posted:At least he can look forward to a medal for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service from the Great Satan. Why would the US military and Trump be giving them a medal?
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Jan 11, 2020 12:57
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Virigoth posted:Why would the US military and Trump be giving them a medal? Historical precedent.
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Jan 11, 2020 13:43
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mobby_6kl posted:I was called an islamophobe in the CSPAM thread for suggesting a shootdown was plausible so I guess I have to go back and gloat now why would you go back to CSPAM, you already escaped
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Jan 11, 2020 13:44
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:ICBM usually right after I wake up in the morning. InContinent Bowel Movements are the worst. Worse than Iran shooting down an airliner filled with innocent people.
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Jan 11, 2020 13:47
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MagicBoots posted:You joke but this was broached after the fall of the Soviet Union by the UK, it was shot down by the US. Basically the idea was that post Soviet Russia was a young democracy and vulnerable to both external and internal bad actors, as such NATO should extend its hand and provide guarantees to keep it afloat and redress a half-century of tensions. The Russians had a guest delegation at nato here in brussel right up to the point they annexed the Crimea. Everybody from the Turkish delegation also mysteriously disappeared after the failed coup there and was replaced. The fact that all ex soviet countries were dragged into nato and/or EU so fast was pushed a lot by the US who didn’t want them to be in the sphere of influence of Russia. And maybe by the UK too. Although the latter made a hard right and got out of the EU after non-empire people started coming to their country.
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Jan 11, 2020 14:01
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MagicBoots posted:Also, it was me, the one who initially assumed the plane crash was an unfortunate coincidence. Seems I was unfortunately wrong but at the time it seemed absurd that Iran would purposely shoot down a civilian aircraft operated by an uninvolved third-party, seems I overestimated the competence of Iranian air defenses. i dont think anyone was ever saying it was on purpose, even the us govt was saying it was probably an accident before iran admitted it
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Jan 11, 2020 14:07
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Rutibex posted:why would you go back to CSPAM, you already escaped
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Jan 11, 2020 14:08
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mobby_6kl posted:I was called an islamophobe in the CSPAM thread for suggesting a shootdown was plausible so I guess I have to go back and gloat now Why leave the thread? Ten pages ago I was being called a clueless idiot for suggesting radical ideas such as 1. Iran shot down a civilian airliner. 2. The US military would defeat the Iranian military in conventional warfare. 3. A democratic president would have taken the same action as Trump (without the twitter post).
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Jan 11, 2020 14:51
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There's one thread I post in in CSPAM and that's the liberal gun thread. Some people came in saying it wasn't liberal but "left." They were tankies (I think that's the word). Like honest to god communists. Never seen one before. They were just like fascists in regards to anger and being straight up dicks. I don't post there anymore.
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Jan 11, 2020 14:58
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I was me. I suggested the radar was turned on/off. And I do play too many video games 
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Jan 11, 2020 15:31
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Smiling Mandrill posted:3. A democratic president would have taken the same action as Trump (without the twitter post). there's not a democratic president so that's moot. now if what you mean is, 'this is an action an ethical president would take regardless of their party', that is a point someone can actually interact with and discuss i think it's difficult to say that with such surety because of how much trust has been broken by the Trump administration by their clear and open lying and getting caught in it over and over. it also can't be denied that the timing is especially bad given current national politics, and this casts a cloud of doubt over all of it which contributes to a crisis of faith in the powers that be*. *not that there was much reason to have faith before. but it's reasonable to not just take this 'at face value' that it would be exactly the same. another president may have taken action, but I don't think it would have been the same actions, played out the same way. Trump's impulsiveness was a huge factor here. StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jan 11, 2020 |
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Jan 11, 2020 15:39
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My point was our policy on the middle east has been extremely consistent since long before the first Iraq war. Some posters in this thread like to pretend that Trump is a crazed political actor commanding the military like you wold in a red alert game. He is just like every other president. He has rooms full of advisers in his ear telling him to toe the line, and do as told. Its almost as if the US president is beholden to the military industrial complex, and corporate investors no matter who gets voted into office. Trump just happens to be a brash loud mouth reality star so he trades political decorum for idiot tweets.
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Jan 11, 2020 15:57
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Speaking as a not-american, the entire world basically assumes each american president will stick his finger in the middle easts face at least at some point because you've always been doing this poo poo
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Jan 11, 2020 16:01
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SplitSoul posted:Historical precedent. the fun thing about blaming Trump in this is it gives an out to the crew of the Vincennes apparently if you get confused and shoot down an airliner, but you're in fear of an attack, then you didn't really make a mistake and the other side actually did it
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Jan 11, 2020 17:07
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StrangersInTheNight posted:there's not a democratic president so that's moot. now if what you mean is, 'this is an action an ethical president would take regardless of their party', that is a point someone can actually interact with and discuss Reagan sank half of Iran's Navy for less credible reasons
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Jan 11, 2020 17:08
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