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Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008

A group of very serious old men sat around and discussed whether or not I had the requisite dignity and grace of a grand champion.


i watched a video on a hakuho scandal where he..

[pause for dramatic effect]

lead a crowd of people in a rhythmic clap.

the video was outstanding because it did a really good job of pointing out why exactly the clap was considered a faux pas - and it was - but also why the old men should chill the gently caress out a bit. i learned a lot about a really small part of japanese culture that i had no idea about, a little bit about hakuho, and a little bit about sumo. good poo poo.

edit: the video, in case anyone else wants to watch a 14 minute video about the bad hand clapping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEjUT8KGwCI

Marching Powder fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 6, 2020

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Bentai
Jul 8, 2004


NERF THIS!




https://twitter.com/SumoFollower/st...267609358721024
https://twitter.com/SumoFollower/st...317271914598402
https://twitter.com/SumoFollower/st...320493995679746

I guess Hakuho officially announced he's calling time after this year?

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




Goddamn. We've all been expecting it though. This is a huge shake up.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 


PYF Hakuho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoiEcW3Rp1k

pseudodragon
Jun 16, 2007




ilmucche posted:

Does sumo not have a big stretching element? It seems like training being so traditional would mean flexibility would big. That massive low ranking fella in the OP seems like he can barely lift his legs.

Orora, the fat dude in the OP is a bad example of a legit sumo dude and was basically a freakshow. He was literally the fattest dude ever in sumo and was 650 lbs by the time he retired. He could barely get up the steps to the ring.

One thing in lower level sumo is that it's basically open to everyone. Until you get to the second highest division, you don't get paid. It's just room and board and you have to do all the chores around the stable so stables will let just about everyone hang around even if they have no potential.

One example would be Hattorizakura, widely regarded as the worst wrestler ever with a career record of 3-172 but they keep him around because he loves the sport.

https://twitter.com/sergseb/status/1204656970021703680

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008

A group of very serious old men sat around and discussed whether or not I had the requisite dignity and grace of a grand champion.


pseudodragon posted:

Orora, the fat dude in the OP is a bad example of a legit sumo dude and was basically a freakshow. He was literally the fattest dude ever in sumo and was 650 lbs by the time he retired. He could barely get up the steps to the ring.

One thing in lower level sumo is that it's basically open to everyone. Until you get to the second highest division, you don't get paid. It's just room and board and you have to do all the chores around the stable so stables will let just about everyone hang around even if they have no potential.

One example would be Hattorizakura, widely regarded as the worst wrestler ever with a career record of 3-172 but they keep him around because he loves the sport.

https://twitter.com/sergseb/status/1204656970021703680

... When he wins does everyone lose their mind like lonzo hitting a three or is everyone just powerfully embarrassed for the person who just had a heart attack and died in the dohyo?

Rigel
Nov 11, 2016



Marching Powder posted:

... When he wins does everyone lose their mind like lonzo hitting a three or is everyone just powerfully embarrassed for the person who just had a heart attack and died in the dohyo?

It does make news on the internet when he somehow wins.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Its their way to detain, their way to disgrace - their knees in your balls and their fists in your face.



pseudodragon posted:

Orora, the fat dude in the OP is a bad example of a legit sumo dude and was basically a freakshow. He was literally the fattest dude ever in sumo and was 650 lbs by the time he retired. He could barely get up the steps to the ring.

One thing in lower level sumo is that it's basically open to everyone. Until you get to the second highest division, you don't get paid. It's just room and board and you have to do all the chores around the stable so stables will let just about everyone hang around even if they have no potential.

One example would be Hattorizakura, widely regarded as the worst wrestler ever with a career record of 3-172 but they keep him around because he loves the sport.

https://twitter.com/sergseb/status/1204656970021703680

Hattorizakura's beya, Shikihide, basically takes anyone who has a passion for sumo, however crap. It's their thing. They're pretty popular amongst sumo purists apparently.

Orora, I think, stayed in sumo for health cover because he has some condition or other related to his size. He's Russian, so probably he figured it was a good compromise.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012






I love everything about this given that I get to watch the equivalent of middle & high school aged Korean kids try to do BJJ at my gym be equally as uncoordinated.

Omnikin
May 28, 2007

Press 'E' for Medic


Oh, Hakuhoís retiring soon~. Iím sad

sivad
Feb 28, 2005




Martytoof posted:

PYF Hakuho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbtt5UcJsB4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gctq_pdHj1U

sivad fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 7, 2020

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Its their way to detain, their way to disgrace - their knees in your balls and their fists in your face.



I guess not entirely surprising.

Miyagino-oyakata hits mandatory retirement age in the next 2 years and the heya has doubled in size in the past few years (interestingly, mostly small dudes), so looks like maybe they're gearing up for a hand off to Hakuho-beya (or maybe he'll take the Miyagino kabu, which I'm kinda leaning towards).

ChrisBTY
Mar 29, 2012

this glorious monument



One would think Hattorizakura would have improved a little over 175 fights.
I guess technique doesn't matter much when you are completely physically overwhelmed in every single fight unless you are some kind of wunderkind

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012





The guy has fallen BACKWARDS when standing up from a lineman stance multiple times. I think being physically overwhelmed is only one of the problems he faces, the more important one being that he is so incredibly uncoordinated that he can't stand up without falling over.

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




Elissimpark posted:

I guess not entirely surprising.

Miyagino-oyakata hits mandatory retirement age in the next 2 years and the heya has doubled in size in the past few years (interestingly, mostly small dudes), so looks like maybe they're gearing up for a hand off to Hakuho-beya (or maybe he'll take the Miyagino kabu, which I'm kinda leaning towards).

Yeah, Hakuho is pretty shrewd, and getting the Miyagino-kabu is an investment, while if he stays on as Hakuho-oyakata he's got nothing to pass on or sell once he himself reaches mandatory retirement.

pseudodragon
Jun 16, 2007




Kenning posted:

Yeah, Hakuho is pretty shrewd, and getting the Miyagino-kabu is an investment, while if he stays on as Hakuho-oyakata he's got nothing to pass on or sell once he himself reaches mandatory retirement.

Heís also pretty big on records and legacy so I can see getting the special stock and keeping the Hakuho name being a big deal for him. Also I donít think youíre allowed to sell your name anymore.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 


Disappointed we went two pages in a new thread before posting awkward rikishi hakkeyoi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOrTbCSV4Y

Martytoof fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 7, 2020

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




pseudodragon posted:

Heís also pretty big on records and legacy so I can see getting the special stock and keeping the Hakuho name being a big deal for him. Also I donít think youíre allowed to sell your name anymore.

Huh, you're right. It says that now the JSA determines who gets stock. How the hell does that get determined? There's not very much to go around, relative to how many wrestlers would presumably like to stay on after retirement.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008

A group of very serious old men sat around and discussed whether or not I had the requisite dignity and grace of a grand champion.


pseudodragon posted:

Also I donít think youíre allowed to sell your name anymore.

What?

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




To be an elder in the sumo association you need to own elder stock, or toshiyori-kabu. There are 105 shares of elder stock, and each one comes with a name. It used to actually be like a share of a corporation, in that wrestlers who wanted to join the organization would have to save a lot of money to buy one from someone who was retiring, or from his wife or whatever. Apparently back in 2011 they prohibited the sale of kabu (there had been several scandals where kabu had been put up as collateral or sold improperly or whatever), and now the Japan Sumo Association (JSA or NSK) just determines who gets what stock.

I wonder what their criteria are for who gets stock now.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Its their way to detain, their way to disgrace - their knees in your balls and their fists in your face.




Not their actual name, but the name attached to "stock" or kabu in the NSK. Basically, to stay in the NSK after retirement, a wrestler has to get their mitts on one of the elder names, which allows them to run a heya, work in the NSK and receive ongoing retirement pay.

If you can't buy one, you can borrow one from some one who has one, but isn't using it for whatever reason (still wrestling, or maybe using someone elses too). There's probably some byzantine politics that goes along with this - I've read that certain names tend to stay within certain ichimon. For example, former sekiwake Kaiki owns the name Takashima, but is currently using the name Oshima after swapping use of the name Tomokaze with former sekiwake Kyokutenho who had started as Oshima-oyakata after retiring.

Dai-Yokozuna, like Takanohana and Chiyonofuji are offered one generation names (their shikona) to use as an elder. Takanohana took them up, but has now left the NSK. Chiyonofuji refused and became Kokonoe-oyakata. Hakuho will be offered this, and he'll probably have the option of taking over the Miyagino when the current holder retires in the next year or two.

After the scandals in 2011 about matchfixing, the selling of the kabu was banned by the NSK, but I have a feeling that hasn't really solved the problem. I'm sure that after receiving a kabu from the NSK, you probably might gift the previous owner say, a large amount of cash, to show appreciation. Totally not because you're buying the kabu, nosiree.

When you're using a kabu, you'll be officially known by that name. So if you see Kyokutenho as a shimpan on TV, he'll be billed as Tomokaze-oyakata. If you have your original name in the sumo world, you've probably done something wrong.

Even the hairdressers have shikona!

efb!

Kenning posted:

I wonder what their criteria are for who gets stock now.

Byzantine sumo politics. Did I stutter?!

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




Honestly the bits where large men run into each other on a big pile of dirt is secondary to the bits where old men are grumpy in confusing ways.

Kenning fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 7, 2020

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Герой Советского Союза



http://heyaaz.nagioff.com/2019/Kabu_AZ.html

Here's the list of Kabu including full body pictures going back about 100 years, browse the various names and see how much smaller these guys used to be.

Miyagino-Oyakata could get special approval to stay on until 70, right?

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

He could, but I think that involves a major pay cut, and he couldn't be the head coach of his stable. From what I hear Hakuho already handles most of the day to day coaching anyway, so it wouldn't be a major change.

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




It's wild, because Miyagno-oyakata's career-high rank was maegashira 13. It's like if Hidenoumi somehow reared the greatest yokozuna of all time. Like, Hakuho definitely understands the physics and principles of sumo much, much better than his oyakata does. That seems like a weird dynamic to have at the stable.

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

I wouldn't say that, plenty of great coaches in sports were either mediocre players or didn't play professionally at all.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Its their way to detain, their way to disgrace - their knees in your balls and their fists in your face.



Kenning posted:

Honestly the bits where large men run into each other on a big pile of dirt is secondary to the bits where old men are grumpy in confusing ways.

That's why we have the YDC. To ensure that the confusing grumpiness is undertaken with clear sight of the correct amounts of confusion and grumpiness.

Brut posted:

http://heyaaz.nagioff.com/2019/Kabu_AZ.html

Here's the list of Kabu including full body pictures going back about 100 years, browse the various names and see how much smaller these guys used to be.

That's super cool. I haven't seen that before!

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




For people who are interested in true sumo ephemera, this is a wonderful interview with an Isegahama tokoyama (hairdresser) from 2006.

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




ChrisBTY posted:

I don't follow Sumo but I do have an odd question.
How is Hakuho received in Japan? Beloved legend, foreigner who rankles traditionalists or full "If this was the Tour De France the governing body would do everything in their power to negate his career"?

It is a bit of a mix, manga artist and huge sumo fan Mitsuru Yaku critized Hakuho for the way he collects his prize money (and probably for the way he breaths in and out), I love the little arm swing he does. Most common fans seem to like him. I'm not 100% sure about this but The Sumo Association seem to have a bit of a strained relationship with him. But they both need each other so while Hakuho will get away with light punishment for some transgressions he knows not to push it too far. In conclusion peoples reaction to Hakuho is a land of contrasts.


This is a great win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbyd-4hybWk#t=154s

I thought this was a great bout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-tcNgYc18#t=251s

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012





Kenning posted:

Honestly the bits where large men run into each other on a big pile of dirt is secondary to the bits where old men are grumpy in confusing ways.

I watched a Chris Sumo video on Tochinosin's heel controversey from 2019 and this seems ti be his take as well. Old grumpy men ruining a sport because they're old and grumpy. (It's also how some BJJ tournaments here in Korea have been ruined but in the way that the old grumpy men actually arent the governing body).

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Its their way to detain, their way to disgrace - their knees in your balls and their fists in your face.



Kenning posted:

For people who are interested in true sumo ephemera, this is a wonderful interview with an Isegahama tokoyama (hairdresser) from 2006.

I love this stuff. Often the live broadcast has little vignettes like this, and I wish I could record them because they're often super niche.

There was one a couple of years ago where they chatted to the old guy who weaves the white string that the tokoyama use to tie up mage.

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




Kenning posted:

For people who are interested in true sumo ephemera, this is a wonderful interview with an Isegahama tokoyama (hairdresser) from 2006.

That was pretty cool, these little tidbits really help flesh out the sport.

pseudodragon
Jun 16, 2007




So one thing with the elder name/stock that wasnít explicitly mentioned was that you need to have everything lined up by the time you retire. You have to go straight from active wrestler to elder with no time in between so you need to start whatever crazy rear end process the JSA has for awarding the stock while still wrestling and hope you get something before your body breaks down. Or bug your buddy who already has a spot to let you use it until he retires to buy a little time, though in that case you could still get caught out if he suffers a career ending injury or something and nothing else is open that you can slide into. There are cases of guys going through two or three temporary names they borrowed until they can finally get a permanent one of their own.

What you canít do is retire and take a year or two off to recharge/live a normal life and then go into coaching/management like in most other sports. Well, Ozeki get a year grace period and Yokozuna get 5, but everyone else has to do it right away.

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Герой Советского Союза



What I also find kinda weird is that even before you become an elder, you're still doing SOMETHING for the organization, it's real bizarre seeing Kisenosato fight as a Yokozuna and then a couple months later seeing him be the security guard in the hallway the wrestlers walk up.

I'm looking at the Kabu list and I noticed there's some cases of Gyoji becoming Oyakata, but I can't find a recent example, was this a decently common practice that was changed or is each of those some special exceptional circumstance?

ChrisBTY
Mar 29, 2012

this glorious monument



Wow you'd think Sumo would be more invested in protecting the mystique of their grand champions. Also I kinda wanna wrestle Hattorizakura. It would be an ego boost for one of us anyway. I promise to not tell him that my knees are shot and crouching is agonizing for me.

ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 7, 2020

Kenning
Jan 10, 2009

I really want to post goatse. I wish I had 10bux




Mekchu posted:

I watched a Chris Sumo video on Tochinosin's heel controversey from 2019 and this seems ti be his take as well. Old grumpy men ruining a sport because they're old and grumpy. (It's also how some BJJ tournaments here in Korea have been ruined but in the way that the old grumpy men actually arent the governing body).

I wanna be clear: I sorta enjoy the grumpy old man politics. It gives you something to talk about between basho!

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

The magnificent story of Dwayt al-Shrood.



I don't understand how he falls over backwards.

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



don't remember a sumo thread before but i welcome it as friends got me into it a year and a half ago once i found out how to watch it daily in 20 or less minutes. would recommend adding tachiai.org to the op as i've found it incredibly useful in learning more about both the tactics and poltics unique to the sport.


my main thought on the banzuke for this month is that terutsuyoshi got robbed. feel bad for abi as well as it's not his fault the ozeki have disintegrated but i'm not gonna blame the nsk for that one.

Thauros fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 7, 2020

pseudodragon
Jun 16, 2007




Kenning posted:

I wanna be clear: I sorta enjoy the grumpy old man politics. It gives you something to talk about between basho!

Grumpy old men politics are half the fun! Especially when you get into Yokozuna/Ozeki promotion politics where you get to debate if 33 wins is really 33 wins or what a championship or championship equivalent means.

Brut posted:

What I also find kinda weird is that even before you become an elder, you're still doing SOMETHING for the organization, it's real bizarre seeing Kisenosato fight as a Yokozuna and then a couple months later seeing him be the security guard in the hallway the wrestlers walk up.

He did that as an elder. He had his status lined up waiting for retirement for years and went right into the job. Like everything else in sumo, you start with the poo poo tier jobs and work your way up and bouncer is entry level elder work until you work your way up to real leadership jobs.

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Bentai
Jul 8, 2004


NERF THIS!




https://twitter.com/SumoFollower/st...456629078511616

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