Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Snooze Cruise posted:

im gay and say watch akanesasu shoujo and read double house

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


like being gay? then read so, wanna go out, or

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Viridiant posted:

I haven't gotten to read all of it yet but I liked what I did get to read of My Brother's Husband. Is the live action adaptation good?

Also any good recommendations for trans focused stuff?

the bride was a boy is a fun 'trans issues in japan 101' primer that never feels too like, handholdy or patronizing.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


nabari no ou is a shonen manga by a nonbinary author and deals with 'man the gender binary kinda sucks' if you want a decent shonen thats also decent Gender, as opposed to lgbt romance and drama manga

howeever the best character in nabari no ou is the cat

also the nabari no ou anime is pretty bad even if it has a good op

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


cant find the panel but the page of nabari no ou where the gender issues kid is curled up in a ball while the narration goes 'black and white, front and back, victory or defeat. people are obsessed with things being one or the other.

male or female. they must have lived a difficult life. not knowing what they are.'

that page absolutely snaps

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


personally im very invested in their random basketball game that goes on for 50 chapters

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Craptacular! posted:

That chart really drives home how far we have strayed from the righteous path in this past decade.

If you ask me, who was very online and talking about anime in the late 90s, the huge driver of American anime fans accepting non-conformity was Utena. It wasn't one of those things everyone watched, I never did, but the people who watched it pretty much could not shut up. There's a lot of other things I could name from 199-2005 that had basically little value except pushing the boundaries of ambigulously gay crushes, but is it really worth talking about every series where guys look at each other a little too long?

Christ, I've got old GIFs from circa-2005 ADTRW called 'sogay' and 'reallygay' from when we were dissing Cluster Edge.
What

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Craptacular! posted:

Okay, let me restate it more plainly:
Utena was more LGBT-friendly and became fairly mainstream without being on cable TV. Whereas the number of properties involved in slash ship-teasing, ala Gundam, are simply too numerous to mention.
utena sucks, lets talk about real progressive queer anime, like kannazuki no miko or the episode of diebuster ikuhara directed

also gotta say mocking stuff as 'slash ship teasing' and 'haha gay' sure isnt making me take your opinions on which anime are lgbt-friendly seriously

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


also back when utena was currentish in anime fandom i got driven off multiple forums for saying utena and anthy were gay so i dont think it actually made anime fandom more lgbt friendly

also lgbt-friendly anime existed well before utena

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


RottenK posted:

hi im gay, animes are cool

i agree

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


the director said hell try and tell the rest of the story in some way so hopefully that comes to fruition. even just a novel or manga would be cool

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


RottenK posted:

i've heard about that and im glad and wish him well

but i worry that it will not get a translation

if its a manga it probably will at least a fan translation, if its a novel uhhhh. hopefully!

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


esselfortium posted:

I watched Utena for the first time a few months ago and I was kind of surprised at how aggressively het it was for such an iconic Gay Show™. I enjoyed it generally, but it sure wasn't what I expected from everything I'd heard about it over the years.
i mean thats the point, the show's building up a society of heteronormativity that anthy and utena escape in the ending. but its def not what people sell it as

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Aoi-chan posted:

Does anyone have opinions on Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son?
i can appreciate some of what its going for but its really bland and 101-y. none of the characters really felt that genuine to me

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Talkc posted:

So i have a love/hate/hate/hate affair with anime and lgbt stuff. I think the only like solid queer tv animes ive seen are No.6 and Given? And maybe cause im too tired of really god awful anime to find anything else? Mind you, its what ive seen. Im sure theres more but... like most seem to really solidly misrepresent or just create a lot of weirdness around the issue of queer characters.
tv anime has good stuff but it obviously requires more money and time to make an anime so less marketable stuff tends to get made less. bloom into you is a solid tv series though the most interesting parts are in the manga material that the anime didn't get around to adapting. if you want a much broader view of it then, yeah, you'll probably wanna go the manga route, though there's still anime that's decent on this stuff that isnt even necessarily focused on it. zombieland saga is a random comedy anime that has a trans character who gets a decent focus ep but it isn't really about the issues or anything.

idk there's plenty of decent stuff like this out there even if you do stick to anime, you just aren't likely to find it in like, insanely mainstream shonen or w/e. i wouldnt really say 'most misrepresent it/create a lot of weirdness around it', tbh in my experience its like, one of the better mediums about this stuff, though obviously thats hard to rank.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


look i dont think you're coming from a bad place or anything but

1) 'You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors.' what???? a lot of the women who like bl are lesbians and even the ones who aren't are usually using bl to explore their own sexuality, they aren't just accepting it blandly as common fact. the point of having stuff like that isn't 'wow, this is what normal romantic relationships are like!' it's because they're attracted to the idea of a taboo, passionate relationship.

2) you're really overselling the amount of times this stuff actually comes up in BL, especially more recently made stuff, as well as how its possible to handle it well or handle it poorly.

3) 'the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical.' this is just straightup racist lol. japanese women, they see rape as logical! thats how misogynistic japan is!

4) 'gays'

5) there are gay men who are into this stuff too, the topic's way more nuanced then you're giving it credit for.

6) again, love stage is based off a manga from a decade ago by an author who's been working in the genre for twenty, a lot of more modern stuff is pretty far beyond those tropes. they obviously still crop up but I wouldn't take them as representative as all mainstream bl or anything. 'all this rape' is a pretty strong mischaracterization.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


like the core point of 'a lot of bl IS made for women so there's sometimes a voyeuristic element to it' isn't wrong at all but the way you got there was pretty hosed up.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


everythingWasBees posted:

allies are banned from this thread now im sorry i don't make the rules
A) you literally do
B) should have been this way from the thought imo.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


everythingWasBees posted:

back when i still identified as male, my first exposure to any sort of gay material was loving loveless
which, like, did eventually result in me realizing i was bi but...
loveless is good because it gave us akuma no riddle, the wokest manga ever created

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Thuryl posted:

Endorph never said "mostly", she said there's a lot of lesbians who are into BL, which is true and a recognized phenomenon. Akiko Morishima even mentioned it in a short autobiographical comic about going to a lesbian otaku meetup:



and also love stage, the manga being discussed, is by a lesbian couple.

they have an amazing manga about a world where butch4butch couples are punished by law.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Toalpaz posted:

when a man really loves a woman................................
*loud booing*

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Craptacular! posted:

Well thanks, but I'll tell you the place I'm coming from: I get sick of the amount of rape in this genre of anime, and it's why I'm largely done with it. I feel like the best queer stuff I find is in manga, which is why even though I'm not into the bara subgenre I find stuff like My Brother's Husband (about a western bear-type meeting his husband's Japanese family) a bit easier to deal with. I've asked around why there's so much rape in yaoi, but I've mostly asked women, and the answer I get most often is along the lines of "consider how women view the male-dominated society in Japan." Which is to say nobody actually draws lines between the points, but men do still have a lot of privilege in Japan. Gay men less so.
I think you vastly, vastly misunderstood what those women were trying to say.


Craptacular! posted:

Trying to talk the mainstream out of their worst fear knee-jerk reaction is bad for queer acceptance as a whole.
'queer acceptance' is a poison pill forced on you by the straights. The moment you're modifying your behavior in any way out of fear of the homophobic right, they've literally already won. The act of modifying your behavior and language out of line of what you would naturally do is in itself disinformation.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jan 30, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


calling it 'signal boosting for pedoscum' is pretty rough, dude.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Archer666 posted:

That's my take too. When I was with some older Japanese guys at a bar and casually mentioned I was gay, they just kept asking me questions about dick sizes in my country vs Japan, when did I realize it etc. I think Japanese people are just really curious about foreigners, especially ones that aren't just endlessly going on about anime.
yeah if you're just chill and showing an earnest effort to engage with stuff a lot of people will talk your ear off if you let them. it can be fun tho, i got to meet an older bi lady with a very complicated take on sailor moon.

Libra posted:

If I remember correctly, approval of homosexuality is statistically higher in Japan than in America, with an extremely noticeable generational gap. I'm pretty sure it's the old people who suck, and they're in charge.
Hopefully when they die out things will get really gay.
Not higher than in America, but higher than it was in America at the time gay marriage passed. I think something like 57% of Japanese people approve of gay marriage, or at least a marriage equivalent that has the same legal benefits.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


PhysicsFrenzy posted:

What was her take?

that its kind of sexist and conservative even if she can respect aspects of it

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Thuryl posted:

yeah i remember reading an interview quote from takeuchi about uranus and neptune that was something like "i believe that a masculine and feminine person could be attracted to each other regardless of gender" and just going "uh okay you're halfway there i guess???"

like 90% of the conflicts in the series are about usagi having to stay with the 'right man' also

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Rody One Half posted:

Yeah but in my version they're all gay as poo poo
the manga especially really has this weird tension between wanting to be gay and having everyone be straight as hell, which feels entirely unintentional. remember that panel where rei and minako are smoking cigarettes on the roof.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Stalin-Chan posted:

I have to admit the most gay anime i've seen is Noir. Which isn't very.

its not even the gayest of the bee train girls with guns trilogy

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


anyone who immediately goes to 'oh, pedophilia!?' if you say 'bl' was never going to take it seriously or not think you're a secret pedophile anyway. like i can understand where you're coming from but it feels like you're prioritizing appearances to hypothetical straight people over the comfort of real gay people, you feel me.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jan 31, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Yeah, I get you. Sorry if it felt like I was jumping on you, but obviously like, you aren't the only person in this thread woth trauma relating to being accused of awful poo poo due to your sexuality, so when you started throwing that around people got understandably jumpy, even if you didnt mean to accuse anyone here of anything. Again, totally get where you're coming from but the like, approach felt really off to me.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


it doesnt really feel like the joke is 'haha they want to be a girl' it feels like you're meant to find how happy they get about it goofy in an endearing way. like a cooking manga where everyone gets stupidly happy when they eat good food, you aren't meant to think the idea of wanting to eat good food is mockable. you get me?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


the bride was a boy, yeah, though its mostly about the author's marriage. both her parents and her husband's parents are supportive so it isn't exactly an acerbic takedown of a transphobic society but it gets into a lot of the legal issues in japan, so it's worth a read if you want more info on that.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


i personally dont like 'queer' at all but if someone else wants to use it i dont care so long as they aren't acting like its like, the most 'progressive' word to say if that makes sense

lots of 'people who say queer are proud rebels, people who say gay are cowards' type posts ive seen, over the years

plus it kinda bugs me that people sometimes use 'queer' to describe something that's very much just, one thing. like yuri manga with no trans characters getting called 'queer' feels off to me.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


RottenK posted:

i thought that "queer" was a universal slur agaisnt all lgbt people, wouldn't a reclaimed version of it also work for any part of the gender/sexuality spectrum?

i dont use it myself so no idea
it would but thats my issue, its imprecise. if something is specific then calling it by a nonspecific term feels weird to me. like if something is exclusively concerned with lesbianism, how lesbians feel, what lesbians experience, calling it 'queer' is inaccurate. itd be like if someone made a movie about the specific challenges vietnamese-americans face and people went on about 'PoC representation' or whatever. like its not *wrong* but its about a specific thing, you know

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


skaianDestiny posted:

Queer has been reclaimed for decades. The slogan "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" has been used since the 90's by LGBT activists.

The whole "queer is a slur" thing has been mostly a false flag by TERFs who want to divide the community, with a lot of younger LGBTQIA teens parroting the rhetoric without knowing their history.
people being uncomfortable with a term isn't a 'false flag by TERFs'

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


dogsicle posted:

i don't think that post is at all saying people uncomfortable with the term don't exist

it 100% is

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


has anyone in here suggested a ban or even expressed disapproval of people using it

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


yeah sorry if i seemed jumpy i just legit have been called a terf due solely to expressing my discomfort/misgivings

imo while terfs obviously exist i think people oversell the 'terfs manipulating the datastream' stuff and a lot of the stuff people attribute that to really is just people expressing sincere misgivings

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


my experience was kids said gay and adults said queer

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


yeah you dont have to justify your identity to anyone. i think the twitter/tumblr generation kinda puts you in that mindset, but your identity doesnt have to be something you can fit in an aboutme blurb or w/e. just do what you wanna do and live how you wanna live, theres no arbitrary test you have to pass before you can call yourself not straight

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply