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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


tweet my meat posted:

Hi, I'm bi and I love watching anime and smoking weed. Prunus was a pretty great read but honestly I don't read a ton of lgbtq stuff, I really should branch out. Is there much out there featuring decent gay characters that isn't necessarily focused on romance? I kinda prefer action or horror stories.

akanesasu shoujo is more of a comedy-mystery with occasional, not very impressive action but its cool

flipflappers has a very explicit romance between the two leads and deals with the idea a fair bit and while i wouldnt say action is a focus, its got some

tiger and bunny is a buddy superhero comedy that isnt *explicit* about the two male leads being a thing sadly but there's a ton of emphasis placed on their relationship, you can read it that way, there's nothing that ever contradicts it, and the creators have said that's a totally valid read that they fully support. up to you if it counts or not, i know some people are really into it so I figured I'd mention it, especially since it's one of the more like, straightforward action/mystery type shows I can think of that also have that as a element. It's also got a nonbinary side character who's handled... okaaay? it's clear the show doesn't quite know what they actually mean them to be (there's points where they come across as a gay dude, a transwoman, or a nonbinary person) and they don't get a ton of plot focus but they're treated pretty decently, no recurring gay panic jokes or anything. not gonna win any awards but it's not bad and I could see people getting something out of it despite the flaws. ive heard the writing with that character improves in the sequel movie but i haven't watched it.

nabari no ou is an action shonen manga with a major nonbinary character, though the anime adaptation is pretty bad and unfinished so I'd only rec it if you're up for reading the manga.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


esselfortium posted:

i want to catch up on watamote because i'm interested in getting to the parts where she actually makes friends, but every time i try i see there's like 9999999999 chapters remaining until then and i give up
you can just skip to it frankly. most of the stuff before it is just the same material on loop, it's pretty obvious why the author made that shift even from a purely artistic/marketing perspective.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


lunar detritus posted:

I'm not sure if I should ask here or in the shoujo thread but any recommendations for completed manga with a trans main character (or at least part of the main "group" if that applies) that's not overly tragic or sad?
double house is only 3 chapters and is clearly unfinished but the three chapters are good and the last chapter does kinda have some catharsis to it that works

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


iospace posted:

I was glad when that went on mangadex
Read idolmaster doujins

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


skaianDestiny posted:

How's Bloom Into You by the way?
It's decent but I think the best parts of it are Sayaka, who's a side character whose narrative got shunted to a spinoff LN (though she still gets a decent arc in the manga) and the stuff at the end where they're an established couple, which is obviously the stuff at the end ofi t. The rest of it is decent but the most interesting parts of it are the bits that get the least focus, is my take.

Love the older lesbian couple, though.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


*nodding* kirika and shirabe

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


The Colonel posted:

i hope wild arms 6 has kirika and shirabe in it
i hope wild arms 6 has doctor ver in it

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


PhysicsFrenzy posted:

unfortunately I don't think there are any LGB characters in Fate though, unless you play the female protag.
Rin, Artoria, Medusa, Gilgamesh, Iskander, Nero, Tamamo, Anne & Mary, Nobunaga, Astolfo, Lu Bu, Chen Gong, Jeanne Alter, Brynhildr, Medb, Shuten, Ibaraki, Musashi, Osakabe, Black Bart, off the top of my head?

Rin and Artoria are both presented as bi in the original F/SN VN and that's carried forward, Medusa's presented as bi in F/HA, Gilgamesh and Enkidu's deal is clearly at least romantic in nature imo, there's a lot of 'the only person that truly mattered' type talk with them, and Enkidu's a lot of things but 'definitively a woman' isn't out of them, Iskander outright references past male lovers of his, Nero refers to herself as bi at several points in Fate/Extra, Tamamo says the same thing, Anne & Mary are explicitly a couple, Nobunaga refers to the historical Nobunaga's wives as just, her wives, with no attempt to backfill like there was with Artoria and Guinevere, Astolfo is Astolfo, Lu Bu has some dialogue that implies an attraction to Chen Gong in Fate/Extella and Chen Gong has the same, Jeanne Alter has the bit in her event where she specifically makes Brynhildr one of her romantic interests in the weird meta dating sim thing going on, and later she has dialogue to that effect in Summer 3, Brynhildr's Noble Phantasm is effective against people she's attracted to and, well, there's girls in the striking distance, Medb has several instances where she says she's attracted to Skadi/Scathach, Shuten and Ibaraki are oni-married, Musashi is just outright bi and also references this at several points and has lines where she expresses attraction to both men and women, Osakabe owns both a Musashi and Siegfried hugpillow, Black Bart also just says he's up for whoever.

That's just servants who're in FGO also (well, and Rin) there's way more if we're going with non-Servant characters. Even more if we're counting Tsukihime and other non-Fate stuff that's in the same Universe. It's not the most amazing representation ever (note that 99% of these are bi (note that carmilla isn't on this list despite being famously associated with lesbians, though part of that is just Carmilla having barely any content in FGO)) but it's cool, imo. And also it may be problematic but the joke of Musashi dualwielding because she's bi and 'two sword style' is Japanese slang for being bi, is really funny.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Feb 5, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Eh, it varies. Da Vinci has ups and downs as a character, but taken as a whole I'm glad she exists. It's not really about points imo, I don't really care about declaring typemoon woke, more just whether or not its something with enough there that someone could get something out of it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Sharkopath posted:

Diebuster is my favorite romance but isn't explicit, but theres so much substance in it that if you choose to read it as not a romance I'll laugh at you.
Diebuster romance is explicit by any reasonable metric imo

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


PhysicsFrenzy posted:

I wasn't aware of 95% of that, and I'm really excited to find out that there's so much more representation than I thought! I definitely knew and forgot about Musashi, and I think it just never registered with me that Artoria is bi when reading FSN. To be fair a good chunk of that seems like you'd need to read/play the supporting materials to ever know about
In Artoria's case its more implied than stated, but she's clearly attracted to Rin. The UBW ending where Artoria sticks around pretty much says as much.

Some of it though, yeah. Still it's pretty clearly a franchise thats not really hung up on straightness, which is cool. As silly as it might seem (and not quite related since its from the Tsukihime branch of the franchse) the random line Akiha has in Kagetsu Tohya where she just casually drops that she's attracted to a classmate was pretty revelatory for a younger Endorph, lol.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Hungry posted:

I enjoy a lot of stuff that isn't explicitly "we are scissoring off screen 24/7" but is still obviously lesbian coded. I hate that term, is there a better one?
The secret is that 90% of the time you can just drop the word 'coded'

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Xun posted:

Wait when does FGO Nobunaga talk about her (maybe their for avenger nobu?) wives?
it's not exactly a major bit but kicho gets mentioned in gudaguda 3 and 4, im pretty sure?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


DisDisDis posted:

just say lesbian but be prepared for progressive straight guys to launch into passionate explanations of the many multi-faceted meanings of "daisuki" when you do

to the above I don't think you have to overthink whether Lin is really a positive represenation of x if he makes you happy.
if the character makes you, a gay/trans/whatever happy, than its positive representation, imo. though im not really fond of the idea of 'representation' as a term. it's kind of a poison pill because it implies something needs to be everything to everyone to count, you know? like if you're just saying 'a gay character exists in this and is an actual character' i get the term but when you get into 'positive/negative representation' or the nitty gritty of the actual character I think it just kinda becomes an impossible standard. What's positive or negative representation is gonna be different for everyone. There's stuff I'm into and get a ton out of that I'm sure a lot of people here would probably not see the point of or even dislike.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


yea. it becomes less about reading poo poo by gay/transpeople or stuff that seems to take them at least kind of seriously and more about telling giant corporations what boxes to tick.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Yeah. For better or worse most of the stuff brought up in this thread is the product of an author who put their own thoughts in the story rather than a corporation trying to check boxes. Like even if Fate is a huge franchise now the original game was made independently by a roleplaying DM and his artist friend who was convinced he was the best writer ever

yeah. and even if fgo is huge now its clear the writers get to do whatever they want, since fate is still an ip thats owned by type moon, which is still a small company founded by a writer and an artist. furthermore its not like they really put any effort into like, promoting this stuff as woke representation the way Marvel teases that maybe the next thor movie will finally have a gay dude in it. It's just in the game.

and its clear its something nasu is just legitimately interested in since Kara no Kyoukai, as mentioned, deals with this stuff (even if in a stumbling, kind of odd way) and he wrote that in literal high school.

And for all of KnK's faults I know at least three people who realized they were nonbinary because of it, so. Yet another example of 'its more about an earnest attempt to engage than checking off boxes' because Kara no Kyoukai literally has a random guy go insane and dress up as Ryougi and go on a murder spree, it seems to literally think of Ryougi's male and female halves as two separate identities, and it's REALLY hung up on the idea that wearing a coat is the most hosed up thing someone assigned female at birth could possibly do and must mean Ryougi is impossible to understand. And people still get a lot out of it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


it's not really related but I love the scene where Kokutou goes on a five minute rant about drugs that is just, completely wrong on every level, and when asked about this Nasu just went 'As a college student, I assumed that Kokutou would know a lot about drugs that are used in the nightclub scene. I, the author, did not know a lot about the nightclub scene."

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


nasu spent all day watching utena and playing dungeons and dragons, you cant expect him to have been to hip 90s japanese parties.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


DisDisDis posted:

All of this is why it's the best nb rep in anime though.

Although imo I always thought their kimono (not sure if this or a yukata, the blue one specifically) was a really masculine look whereas a short red leather jacket like that is much more feminine.
hosed up thing is youre right but they seem to think its the other way around??

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


depends what you mean by 'incidentally.' like if the character's arc deals with it but the broader story is about other stuff, does that count? like nabari no ou has a nb character and they talk about their gender issues as a character point for them but its a ninja action mystery manga, they arent really defined by it its just a focus of their backstory. regardless the fact that yuri/bl are defined genres means that there's a lot of good content but also means that sometimes stuff in those fields tends to get pigeon holed into the tropes of that 'genre.'

that being said, harukana receive is a fun sports anime that also just has one of the characters talk about her ex-girlfriend and makes said ex a major character, and they literally use the term 'ex-girlfriend.' there's some fanservice since it's about beach volleyball so naturally everyone's in swimsuits 90% of the show but it never felt that out of line, and the sports narrative itself is pretty good, though since its only 12/13 eps it pretty obviously ends halfway through the story of the manga. there's a good character arc climax but still, here's hoping for a s2.

kino no tabi (2003) leans pretty heavily into the protagonist being nb but it isn't really the focus of their individual adventures, just the backstory ep they get towards the end of the series and a few lines here or there, since its episodic some of the individual stories also deal a bit with gender roles but not really in an overarching theme way. it's mostly an adaptation choice tho, the original LNs and the more recent series don't have that same angle, or at least don't push it as hard.

promare is an action mecha movie that's mostly about rebelling against power structures, that pretty heavily implies the two leads are gay for each other (and the creators are all in on supporting that take given interviews and artbooks and such) but it doesn't quuuite get there in terms of making it literally undeniably explicit. I don't care about that but some people do.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Feb 15, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


also yeah the touhou mangas are pretty good for this because most of the cast is pretty obviously lesbian and there's a general atmosphere of Girls looking out for Girls. Gensokyo in general is a pretty queer-coded setting considering the whole 'hidden from the outside world, everyone argues about petty poo poo but they mean well for each other, general positive vibes' etc. And Miko is explicitly a trans character, so if you're really hardline about stuff being explicit there's that. Though iunno if there's a manga she pops up in much.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

I really hope they get to redo it sometime and make the relationship more explicit (not explicit-as-smut but rather explicit-as-acknowledged)


(Talking about Yuri on Ice!! for the benefit of the snipe






0
Its explicit lol

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


If we made art more boring homophobes and idiots would still deny stuff is real. If you showed the kiss onscreen theyd talk about how it was a moment of pure passion, if you made them say they love each other theyd say it was meant platonically, if you literally showed them getting married theyd say it was a fantasy sequence because gay marriage isnt legal in japan

So just let directors and stuff do what they want lol

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Naoko yamada i think

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


How often do people buying engagement rings go 'this is an engagement ring that i have bought because I am romantically attracted to you'

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

How often do they go 'this is a good luck charm'?
if a straight couple had said that would you have cared at all? It's a pretty normal 'heh, yeah' kind of line. Calling something you have positive feelings about a good luck charm is pretty normal flirting/joking.

It's being argued over because the need people have to argue down things that are very obviously queer that they like sucks. You are the person forcing ambiguity into this, not the show. starting from a baseline of 'how can this be proven to be gay?' is a trap forced on you by the heterosexuals.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Feb 29, 2020

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


you may reply that other gay people also think its ambiguous, but gay people are notoriously bad at understanding media, due to the shackles forced on them by the hets, who are even worse at it. only by accepting that kannazuki no miko is a good anime can we be free. god bless the usa.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Darth Walrus posted:

Near as I can tell, it's not that they think it's ambiguous that it happened, it's that an obvious gay relationship had this annoying obfuscation over it, because that happens way too often to gay relationships in media in general and anime in particular. Yes, heterosexual romances can be subtle and indirect, but it can feel like gay romances can't be anything but. It's the difference between 'every gay relationship in anime should be more open and explicit' and 'there should be more open, explicit gay relationships in anime'. Not every gay romance has to be like the climax of REDLINE, but there's room out there for ones that are.
I mean the issue is there literally are gay romance anime that are like the climax of redline but people act like it's somehow unexplicit. Akanesasu Shoujo as a random example, that's a show that affirms the romance in the most bombastic way possible and puts the entire emotional weight of the last fight on it, and I've 100% seen people act like it was somehow unambiguous or whatever. Like anything that'd count as 'obviously explicit and canonical' in a het romance turns into 'subtle and indirect' in a gay one.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

Except people aren't??? Idk why you guys are so upset that people see things differently than you :/

because ive had to navigate this kind of pedantry for literally every gay romance anime ever made

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Syenite posted:

On the one hand corporations deliberately coding in enough cues to get The Gays interested but not so many that the straights catch it is hosed up & exploitative on a metatextual level, but on the other, folks being negative to other folks for taking something or another out of said products is not cool and also about 75% of Tumblr "discourse".
And also people really love accusing things that are blatant of being 'coding.'

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


RottenK posted:

what does coding mean

the best i could figure out from seeing people talk about it is that it's about characters looking/acting in some way stereotypically associated with lgbt people?
implying lgbt without actualyl saying it. sometimes its what you said sometimes it's more behavior based. a good example would be a lot of 90s disney villains, like scar. lots of tossing his hair around, kind of fabulous voice, treated as a contrast to the hypermasculine mufasa who's married with a kid, big showtune, eloquent, that kinda thing. that's a character who obviously isn't explicitly gay but has those elements for one reason or another.

ofc as time's gone on its lost basically all meaning

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


comparatively speaking (esp. in the 90s) anime and such is way more comfortable with gender blurring/ambiguity so when you get an ambigulously gay villain he's usually up against characters that aren't hypermasculinized as contrast there's the occasional exception like a couple hokuto no ken villains and such but compare, say, dio vamping around the screen or all the pretty boys in part 4 of jojo's. yeah they've got some elemetns of it but design wise they have the same beautiful muscle god aesthetic as the protagonists, and its not like the protagonists are immune to homoerotic moments.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


tbh the last time i can remember that trope being even semi-common was like, the early 2000s.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Miuras only doing storyboards for it, its mostly being done by his assistants. Its basically something that exists so his assistants can have more work and hes only involved enough to justify getting an author credit.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


renessia posted:

hi! i'm a lady gay and y'all are my people. thank you
you're my people too. have you read run away with me, girl

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


it's an extremely good manga and i enjoy it a lot, yeah

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


renessia posted:

it's certainly one of the few that I get really, really excited to see updates for. i'm very grateful to the scanlators for working as hard on it as they are!
i appreciate it, as do the other people on the scanlation team (i am a member of the sexy akiba detectives, you see)

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


i do editing but i passed the thanks along to the lead translator



also yeah its an extremely good chapter, also i love komari

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


run away with me girl is finished in japan and we're making good progress on it at least, and its not 70 chapters or anything, so you shouldn't have to wait too long

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


You do realize the basic psychology of saying that making people more likely to read the comments, right

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