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Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


I've watched a lot of "here's 20-30 twinks and a plot about music success" stuff over the past five years, and I swear to god I wouldn't watch another, but I will probably watch Division Rap Battle because I am interested in watching handsome bros compete in a very different genre than idol pop.

As a bonus, they're not all high school aged.

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Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


That chart really drives home how far we have strayed from the righteous path in this past decade.

If you ask me, who was very online and talking about anime in the late 90s, the huge driver of American anime fans accepting non-conformity was Utena. It wasn't one of those things everyone watched, I never did, but the people who watched it pretty much could not shut up. There's a lot of other things I could name from 199-2005 that had basically little value except pushing the boundaries of ambigulously gay crushes, but is it really worth talking about every series where guys look at each other a little too long?

Christ, I've got old GIFs from circa-2005 ADTRW called 'sogay' and 'reallygay' from when we were dissing Cluster Edge.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Okay, let me restate it more plainly:
Utena was more LGBT-friendly and became fairly mainstream without being on cable TV. Whereas the number of properties involved in slash ship-teasing, ala Gundam, are simply too numerous to mention.

Also, more than half the Hottest Men list being occupied by those twins from that Showa manga reboot is proof that the 2010s were a mistake.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 27, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Endorph posted:

also gotta say mocking stuff as 'slash ship teasing' and 'haha gay' sure isnt making me take your opinions on which anime are lgbt-friendly seriously

I like a lot of that stuff, but like I said wrt Rap Battle that I am trying to avoid it. It was a very easy thing for a while for otherwise unremarkable anime to just add some Kaworu looking dude and do the kinda-sorta-gay high schooler thing. Candidate for Goddess, the aforementioned Cross Edge, etc.

Also most of the gays I talk anime with are bara fans who think my faves are for teenage girls, so there's a certain amount of projecting here.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 28, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Love Stage starts off with a feminine looking young boy being used as a stand-in for a girl in what becomes (in universe) an iconic TV commercial, and the other boy never realizing it and growing up wishing to meet the girl from that day. Which is to say that the show initially starts off around a gender reveal and engages in a fair amount of laughs that people particularly sensitive to trans microaggressions won't take well to. After realizing our effeminate protag is a guy, the other dude has a crisis of sexuality for a little bit and then decides that it doesn't matter and persues a relationship with him anyway. Their relationship has a small amount of the "you know he truly loves you because he doesn't respect your refusal of consent" stuff that mainstream yaoi usually does.

I can only speak to wokeness as an outsider because I'm not as good of a trans ally as some other people are, but I can see some people being offended. You have to accept that this stuff is made for Japanese women who are often in toxic relationships with men who display misogynistic behaviors. It sucks for actual gays to see all this rape, but the intended audience is so is accustomed to a culture of men raping women, that men raping other men seems logical. If you're okay with things being 'problematic' sometimes, you'll be fine.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Endorph posted:

look i dont think you're coming from a bad place or anything but

Well thanks, but I'll tell you the place I'm coming from: I get sick of the amount of rape in this genre of anime, and it's why I'm largely done with it. I feel like the best queer stuff I find is in manga, which is why even though I'm not into the bara subgenre I find stuff like My Brother's Husband (about a western bear-type meeting his husband's Japanese family) a bit easier to deal with. I've asked around why there's so much rape in yaoi, but I've mostly asked women, and the answer I get most often is along the lines of "consider how women view the male-dominated society in Japan." Which is to say nobody actually draws lines between the points, but men do still have a lot of privilege in Japan. Gay men less so.

My point was that I'm not schooled well in the politics of the culture war, it's caused changes me a lot but Love Stage is the kind of thing I still both find entertaining but could easily see some people being offended by due to the gender and assault tropes.


I suppose I'll put this out there and deal with the flames: I use yaoi for MxM stuff that isn't in my estimation fit for the more masculine/bear-friendly bara label. I am not going to adopt the term BL publicly, because I believe that well was poisoned in the west by pedophiles. Gay relationships in anime is a niche thing, but Jon Stewart proved that you can make a NAMBLA joke and millions of people will know what it is you're talking about. Trying to talk the mainstream out of their worst fear knee-jerk reaction is bad for queer acceptance as a whole.

So it's using the wrong words in that it obstructs creating a common shared lingo with the Japanese fandom, but I do it deliberately. It's better than handing the homophobic right a new disinformation campaign.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Jan 30, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Endorph posted:

'queer acceptance' is a poison pill forced on you by the straights. The moment you're modifying your behavior in any way out of fear of the homophobic right, they've literally already won.

Well, opening myself up to further attack AND signal boosting for pedoscum is a double whammy to me.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


I wasn’t trying to advocate anyone else to take action, I was just explaining why I personally don’t feel comfortable with the term. I was mostly curious if anyone else shares my discomfort or if I’m alone, as I don’t know many people with anything more than passing knowledge of the subject. It’s a genuine gripe from an isolated person with little gay support network, and not an attempt to agitate or troll.

Ultimately I disagree with the “who cares what the straights think” take because my family and many of my friends are straight. To try to “take back” terminology that has the deck so thoroughly stacked against it in this country’s culture, by people homophobes have tried to smear us with, is not a fight that I personally believe in. But that’s just me.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Jan 30, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


I just wanted to address two things real fast because I was kind of attacked on this:

Everything Burrito posted:

FYI "bara" is also an outdated and somewhat offensive term.

Barazoku magazine was a long running but not financially successful magazine, that reached the mainstream consciousness to the point where heteros began using 'bara' (rose) as a slur, the same way that English-speaking homophobes used 'queer' but has fallen out of use. Western fans adopted the term as a genre long after it was antiquated.

Intent matters, and in my mind cultural context does, too. That was why I rambled about the term BL; I certainly wasn't disparaging anyone who likes BL manga/novels/etc, I suggested that the name (and particularly the English words the acronym stands for) is troublesome in an American cultural context. Western fandom's appropriation of 'yaoi' as a substitute for 'boys love' may not be done to cause offense, but a concession to cultural contexts dealing with non-otaku/normies/whatever we're going to call them. The sort of stories that was 'yaoi' was originally used for in Japan are basically extinct now, anyhow.

I don't mind a healthy dialogue about this stuff, but I'm gay and have faced discrimination (thankfully not assault) for it, so your reinterpretation of my remarks as though I said that I believe BL fans are dangerous (I didn't, I don't, and they aren't) made me very upset.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Yeah that's fair. I wasn't trying to tone police anyone, I was working out internal thoughts I've had and was using the thread as a sort of sounding board to find out how off the path I had strayed. The old Tumblrs that I used to know of about these things are dead after Tumblr went full Disney, and asking That Other Site is a heap of trouble.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jan 31, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Apparently Square Enix is going to start publishing manga this year, and CherryMaho will be one of the first titles. Probably not gonna be that explicit about things (I mean, you can order it at Walmart), but it seems unusual to my memory for M4M stuff from a big publisher to not be sequestered to some spinoff label.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


It says something about how my perspective of same sex relationships in anime are so defined by fan art porn, that I can’t look at these “wow he’s such a cute crossdresser” mangas without being like “where’s the dick jokes, there’s gonna be a dick joke on this page, oh okay so this is a swimsuit issue so there’s going to be a discussion on bulging genitals”. The closest things came was the Prunus Girl discussion on body hair.

It’s not like I consciously want this poo poo (especially with high school characters), but I keep having my expectations subverted in almost every chapter and it’s become a commentary on where my expectations are to begin with. Probably not a surprise for someone who survived the bad old days of ADTRW, but when poo poo’s anime, I have this automatic assumption it’ll be hornytown.

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Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Draga posted:

Won't you take me to
Hornytown?

I was going to say Horny Jail but that made it sound bad.

https://twitter.com/ericalindbeck/status/1258298320180543489

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