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californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


that doesn't sound very compelling/rigorous/interesting at all, to me anyways. if you care at all about accuracy, barrel and ammo selection are huge and it's easy effort once you've figured it out. you can cut your group sizes down by 50% and not spend any more money just by buying stuff that works well together (or reloading). of course if you just care about "practical accuracy" then it's not really a big deal

looking at the reddit list of parts on the guns, i'm personally not a fan a bunch of things like the carbon fiber handguard as i feel there are plenty of better more durable handguards at a lower price point (geissele, slr, etc) and the a2 flash hider. i would've rather gone with something that works much better like a smith vortex.

for something like trigger selection, it would've been interesting to me if they shot groups, different drills under a time, and all that with different triggers to see which one produced the best results. if they selected their trigger like their barrel though, i don't think they did that

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L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



I got one of the triggers they selected off a prize table at a match. It's just a pretty good single stage trigger, nothing fancy.

It's only compelling reason to buy it over any other trigger is you can flip the safety on even with the hammer down, and that's a very fringe benefit, but for the same cost you can get an SSA-E and I prefer that myself.

It also supposedly is less prone to damage in straight blowback 9mm ARs, but I don't own one of those to know how much of a problem that is.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Stravag posted:

Pretty sure they had settled on faxon before the project started because they have liked the company and done Q&As about the barrel making process but i didn't follow closely and could be wrong

Yeah I got a real these are some friends of ours and their products are pretty affordable vibe off of the choice. That said, there also aren't a ton on of pencil barrel products on the market.

Stravag
Jun 7, 2009


Tbf faxon may have been the only choice if your starting point is " this barrel has to be pencil profile and the only decision to make is how long". I however dont fire any of my (modern) guns little enough that a pencil wouldnt make an uncomfortable amount of heat. I managed to make my Tikka barrel uncomfortably warm a couple times from putting rounds through it. I want a superheavy barrel for my rdb because if i fire that thing im putting 80+ rounds through it in 10 minutes unless i break the firing pin.

The gamer comparison is apt i think. These things are minmaxed for the 2gun that Karl runs in Tucson where they fire less than 30 rounds in a stage normally judging from the vids ive seen. So yeah its what stoner would do, if he was building the ar15 for short endurance competition stuff where youre hauling around 20 pound weights and poo poo and almost every ounce you can shave off without skeletonizing and getting dust into it matters. I think when they talk about "we made this choice because of what someone would prefer in the field" is more them justifying to themselves a base level assumption theyve made. They havent really put much thought into endurance of parts if theyre popping off multiple mags as fast as possible for suppression in winter of the ardenne as far as i can tell. What kind of warping does that quick heating and then back to horrid cold do to one of these pencil barrels?

There are also their assumptions on what a "professional soldier" in the current era is like that reading gip makes me question heavily. The idiot threads exist for a reason. One of the notable stories was a command decision to look for a beretta dropped out of a blackhawk at night using a pair of little birds that ended with the little birds colliding and killing the crews. These guns have to be that level of idiot proof. Ian mentions frequently that you have to choose between weight and reliability and while Ian has been in a couple of the p&s gun nerd episodes i think they made this more as a wwsd for a general basic competition rifle than a general service rifle.

Maybe they address some of that better in more of the wwsd videos after i stopped watching the series but the entire project after a while was way more indepth about a gun that interests me to the level that ar15s do. Id be way more interested in them wwsding the scar H or Ak

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



The WWSD project is emulated a lot, but people probably shouldn't be looking at it as a a general guide to building a good (edit: really meant to write "best" or "optimized" here) AR; it's an exercise in asking how Stoner's design thesis looks if you try to refocus to embrace it fully in a build today, after 60 years of AR development, to see if the specific points he emphasized played out to make an effective rifle.

I think they landed upon some pretty great ideas for a lightweight rifle - and lots of people do - so I built two, but I took their template as a pretty general outline, not gospel. After all, one of the best things about ARs is how easy it is to tweak a build to fit personalized criteria. For what it's worth, both of mine are great, super accurate rifles. My 14.5 pinned uses an aluminum handguard due to the value vs weight savings in a short length; my 18 inch uses a gunner profile instead of true pencil to gain a little more stiffness over the longer length, and the carbon handguard I picked is a little cheaper/heavier than the nicest/lightest stuff.

glynnenstein fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jan 10, 2020

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


my point is that they weren't minmaxed well. they didn't do much testing to select their parts. if you want to build the best gamer game for those action 2gun or whatever, it's worth testing a bunch of barrels and seeing which shoots best, not choosing one they probably got for free from a sponsor. i don't know much about the competition and like target presentations and how far they shoot in their competition but more accuracy for any competition is always a good thing. otherwise you wouldn't see stainless barrels hanging off so many 3gunners rifles or cz accushadows in uspsa, and stuff of that nature.

it looks to me like they don't have much experience with ar15's to be honest. i saw a quick blurb about why they chose their carbon fiber handguards with mlok and saw them post the crane mlok/keymod comparison. carbon fiber hg's are nice when you first use them, but the edges around the holes cut into them tend to fray/wear over time. i wouldn't rely on that to hold zero for the laser illuminator after being banged around for a while

Atticus_1354
Dec 9, 2006

Don't you go near that dog, you understand? Don't go near him, he's just as dangerous dead as alive.


californiasushi posted:

carbon fiber hg's are nice when you first use them, but the edges around the holes cut into them tend to fray/wear over time. i wouldn't rely on that to hold zero for the laser illuminator after being banged around for a while

My gun game of choice involves a lot of shooting from rocks, trees, fence posts, and anything else you can. I have seen exactly one carbon handguard show up and by the end of the day it was absolutely torn up on the bottom and he was planning on replacing it. I would never sacrifice the durability of aluminum to save a few ounces even if I'm carrying the rifle for 6 miles and sprinting around.

An example of the terrain that destroyed the CF handguard.

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



I don't take issue with their choice of a carbon fiber hanguard, but I would get bumper inserts for the unused mlok slots to try and help durability. Burning your hand on a ripping hot handguard just because your gun's been sitting out in the Arizona sun seems.... bad.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

SwissArmyDruid posted:

I don't take issue with their choice of a carbon fiber hanguard, but I would get bumper inserts for the unused mlok slots to try and help durability. Burning your hand on a ripping hot handguard just because your gun's been sitting out in the Arizona sun seems.... bad.

I do like how much cooler the CF stays at least exposed to the sun.

(Technically it gets to the same temperature but has a lower heat capacity, so it doesn't store enough heat to burn you even if it does get up to 100* or whatever)

Bob Mundon
Dec 1, 2003
Your Friendly Neighborhood Gun Nut

Maybe I'm biased, but with everyone saying it's less durable has anyone ever actually run into durability problems with a cav lower? Mine is about 15 years old at this point and haven't had any issues, including me eating poo poo at a full run and having about 260 lbs fall on it in the process. Seen plenty of action in regular multigun too. Other polymer lowers fail all the time yes, but I just don't see any less durability with these. No less than than a Glock compared to a metal frame pistol anyway. Might be wrong, but a carbine buffer tube seems like a bigger risk to me.

Did just put a gunner profile on it though, loving this setup. If you have a cav lower you really owe it to yourself to have a lightweight barrel on it. Previously had a 20in govt and it's a massive upgrade. Inrange wasn't necessarily scientific about it, but directionally yeah it's the way to go to me.

Bob Mundon fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jan 10, 2020

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006


glynnenstein posted:

The WWSD project... shouldn't be looked at as a a general guide to building a "best" or "optimized" AR; it's an exercise in asking how Stoner's design thesis looks if you try to refocus to embrace it fully in a build today, after 60 years of AR development, to see if the specific points he emphasized played out to make an effective rifle.

From this perspective I think the WWSD makes a lot of sense, re-read it.

It's not intended or claimed by InRange to the one true AR, it's a showcase of design ethos that they think Stoner would have developed or at least prototyped at some point. CAV lower, light and reduces part count, CF handguards are light, pencil barrels for lightness and maneuverability, optics only to reduce weight and snag points, brake for recoil reduction, ambi controls, etc.

All things a lot of people think are good ideas. Maybe not all of them on the same rifle, but it's a thought exercise and it doesn't claim to be a list of end-all-be-all products.

Also, they're on a budget too. They have sponsors I'm sure and I'm sure Pateon pays well but everyone's got bills to pay in addition to building ARa for YouTube videos.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Bob Mundon posted:

Maybe I'm biased, but with everyone saying it's less durable has anyone ever actually run into durability problems with a cav lower? Mine is about 15 years old at this point and haven't had any issues, including me eating poo poo at a full run and having about 260 lbs fall on it in the process. Seen plenty of action in regular multigun too. Other polymer lowers fail all the time yes, but I just don't see any less durability with these. No less than than a Glock compared to a metal frame pistol anyway. Might be wrong, but a carbine buffer tube seems like a bigger risk to me.

Did just put a gunner profile on it though, loving this setup. If you have a cav lower you really owe it to yourself to have a lightweight barrel on it. Previously had a 20in govt and it's a massive upgrade. Inrange wasn't necessarily scientific about it, but directionally yeah it's the way to go to me.

Didn't they say a truck rolled over a bag of guns at one point and the cav arms lowers were the only ones undamaged?

Soft Velvety Nose
Jul 21, 2019


Has anyone here done an lefty build? A lot of what I read says "don't bother",
which seems a little odd, but its the internet so who knows. It seems like it would
probably add to the cost though not outrageously so. The list of manufactures
is longer than I expected with stag being the fav.

This would be my first build (with the help of someone experienced).

DeesGrandpa
Oct 21, 2009



Stag is the one I've heard most people go with, but most lefties I know (I'm a lefty who learned to shoot rifles/shotguns righty, and therefore of little help) just shoot any AR with a brass deflector (so basically anything modern) and it works fine, is cheaper, and involves no special parts.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Soft Velvety Nose posted:

Has anyone here done an lefty build? A lot of what I read says "don't bother",
which seems a little odd, but its the internet so who knows. It seems like it would
probably add to the cost though not outrageously so. The list of manufactures
is longer than I expected with stag being the fav.

This would be my first build (with the help of someone experienced).

Lots of people do ambidextrous builds, the worst thing you typically have to deal with is gas blowback to the face. In that regard, an adjustable gas block is a big quality of life improvement, and you can get ambi safety selectors and bolt releases.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


I am a lefty, and I'm a complete stickler about left-handed controls, and I promise you right-side ejection is not an issue on AR-15s so long as you have the brass deflector which is on almost every upper. I have an ambi charging handle, ambi safety, and the Troy ambi mag release and it works great. The bolt release is already easier to hit as a lefty anyway.

hamsystem
Nov 11, 2010

Fuzzy pickles!


I think it'll depend on how you plan on using it. I'm also a lefty and even without ambi controls on anything it's still extremely lefty friendly but I mostly just punch paper from a bench.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


DarkHorse posted:

I do like how much cooler the CF stays at least exposed to the sun.

(Technically it gets to the same temperature but has a lower heat capacity, so it doesn't store enough heat to burn you even if it does get up to 100* or whatever)

Gotta for a minute here just because it's within my field. When you touch something and feel how hot it is, what you're actually feeling is merely the rate of heat transfer between the surface of your skin and the object you're touching.

Rate of heat transfer in this case is proportional to two things, the thermal conductivity of the touching materials and the difference in temperature between them. The relevant difference between CF and aluminum here is that aluminum has a much higher thermal conductivity.

(Most metals have high thermal conductivity because of their highly organized crystalline structure at the molecular level, which helps the atoms transfer energy to each other more efficiently when they vibrate together. The crystalline structure also gives metals high electrical conductivity for a similar sort of reason. Contrast with glass, which is in fact not crystalline and has relatively low conductivity.)

Heat capacity measures how much energy it takes to raise the temperature of an object by a certain amount. So for a similar amount of thermal energy a higher heat capacity material might be at a lower temperature, which itself affects the rate of heat transfer depending on the temperature of whatever it's touching.

Soft Velvety Nose
Jul 21, 2019


Great thanks! A piece of me wants to have a special snowflake lefty rifle, but saving some money and just not having to dig deeper to find parts would not hurt my feelings. I was planning to go with ambi controls either way.

It would range and maybe some running around - I have an new acquaintance who does 3 gun and said he'd take me to his range once the winter is over and give me a bit of an intro. That is a big (rabbit hole) maybe.


Christ, decision paralysis is real - so many choices.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE





Illegal Hen

If you don't get an ambi lower (Aero, LMT, KAC, Radian) I find a good bolt release can help. I will shill the Geissele Maritime Bolt Catch until the cows come home as IMO it's the right shape to easily hit with your left index finger.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



If we're talking WWSD guns I'll post mine, even though I built mine before Ian and Karl started the whole WWSD thing <>



It's a OG cav-15 lower, used PSA upper, 16" 1:7 middy gas PSA CMV "premium" pencil profile barrel (bought back when PSA stuff was pretty decent. Don't remember who the OEM on it was), PSA bolt, I think the LPK stuff is mostly CMMG but I'm not sure - it's all stuff I dug out of my parts bin when I built it. Birdcage was sourced in the PIF thread, topped off with a 15" Midwest SS series freefloat handguard. IIRC I got it on sale cheap because it wasn't keymod or mlok and they were clearing out old stock. MBUIS and a Primary Arms red dot. I got lazy when it came to put the buffer retainer in, so when I clean it it just poops the buffer out to say hi to the hammer.

I put it together back in 2014 as a cheap, lightweight loaner rifle. I had a buddy who I went to the range with a lot and he was just chronically forgetting to bring his own AR. Like, we'd be at my place and get it in our heads to go shooting (we were both writing dissertations at the time and basically sitting in my living room at different desks keeping each other on task - sometimes we just hosed off to go shooting) and he wouldn't have his gun there so we'd end up using a couple of mine. I was kind of intrigued by the CAV 15 stuff at the time and liked the idea of a lightweight utility build so I did that. The idea was a lightweight build without going full idiot on the featherweight stuff.

It's a super fun little rifle. Shoots pretty well but it's just handy as gently caress. It's easily my wife's favorite center fire rifle. My other AR is heavy enough that she doesn't really like holding them it any extended period of time (in fairness, it's brick heavy - a WOA stainless target barreled upper on a lower with a UBR that is almost as heavy as a Garand) and 5.56 is tame enough that the added perceived recoil isn't really a problem.

I get why there's a little bit of a backlash. Ian and Karl are cool dudes and I have no doubt that they were doing a fun thought exercise, but any time you have someone internet famous who promotes a thing the actual values of it get exaggerated and what is a neat, good thing for certain uses all of a sudden becomes the alpha and omega.

Still, it's a gun that ends up in my trunk when I"m headed to the range a lot, and every time that I've got a new shooter or a guest with me. It's a fun gun and a build I can recommend to anyone who just wants a general purpose AR. Groups open up a bit if you're blasting through 100 rounds in a few minutes, but even that's not terrible. For typical range fuckery it works great.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno




I also built up a lightweight gun around the time InRange was developing the WWSD, but I went in with a few different constraints. I wanted a lightweight rifle, because I had a spare pre-ban (MD) lower, and post-ban stuff has to have a heavy barrel.

I decided I didn't want to mess with lightened operating components or exotic materials (no tennalum, no carbon fiber, no titanium), and didn't want to sacrifice functionality over something like a stock 6920 to save weight.

I looked at the weight of a clamshell/fsb build first, and quickly realized a free float setup would be lighter and provide more accuracy, a better sight radius with irons, better accessory compatibility, and better gripping surface

I ended up picking ALG, mostly out of familiarity and cost, they're a really solid buy for the price, easy to install, have in-built QD, and come in purple!

With all the talk that Faxon did about their manufacturing process, they sold me on their pencil profile, I wanted the pinned 14.5" but thanks to WWSD they were out of stock forever and so I got a 16" instead, and it is good. Doesn't shift around when hot, at least that I've noticed, hasn't let me down in long 2-gun stages.

Upper is an Aero FA-delete, BCG is toolcraft, charging handle is Radian LT, optic is a Vortex SPARC II.

For the lower, I went full ambi with a Norton mag catch, PDQ bolt catch, and a KE ambi safety. H1 buffer, after an H2 was a little too much and was causing failures to lock open. Stock is the super light MFT minimalist.

Trigger is a LaRue MBT-2S flat bow, which I'm not so sure about on this gun, but I need more time. The balance between the stage weights seem... weird, for that gun, I might change to a S3G or go back to a single stage. Good trigger, just maybe not for that purpose.

Total unloaded weight is just over 6 lbs with everything pictured. Super handy, balances perfectly. Little punchy on recoil compared to my heavier, braked guns, but that's to be expected in a trade off for lightness, nothing terrible.

MazeOfTzeentch fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 10, 2020

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

DarkHorse posted:

Didn't they say a truck rolled over a bag of guns at one point and the cav arms lowers were the only ones undamaged?

I canít find it now but there was a video where someone shot the hell out of a GWACS lower with another AR, then they built an AR using the shot-up lower and ran the hell out of it.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



infrared35 posted:

I canít find it now but there was a video where someone shot the hell out of a GWACS lower with another AR, then they built an AR using the shot-up lower and ran the hell out of it.

I got ya fam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjhvi8c0MF4

They do a lot more than just shoot that poor lower. Run it over with a car, use it to do pushups, all sorts of dumb poo poo. The shooting it is at the end and is obviously the final bit.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

Don't let Lowtax go down with the ship. Do your part for these dead gay forums.


Speaking of polymer lowers, this is kind of neat but pricey as gently caress.

Itchy_Grundle
Feb 22, 2003



Fun Shoe

darnon posted:

The EndoMags are also handy in ban states without having to search for pinned colt mags or going 10-rd Glock. With some trimming they'll fit into a 10/30 Hexmag which was convenient since I had a few already that didn't feed 5.56 great.

Crap. That means I have to buy a 9mm upper I wasnít planning on.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

DarkHorse posted:

It's still a great effort and editing has a great impact on usefulness, don't discount the value added by your effort.

One addition for 9mm is you can get inserts for pmags - this means you won't need to get a mag insert or a dedicated lower, and the magazines will be the same size so you can use the same manual of arms. Most people say they work well, and gives last round bolt-hold-open out of the box.

Some foibles: the ejector is built into the mag insert, so the magazine has to be inserted in the gun to eject a case (or unfired round) so clearing a gun is slightly different. The ejector pin is also made of plastic and tends to be a bit bendy, and might need to be bent back into shape. Some people have had feeding issues if pressure is put on the magazine bottom (like using it as a monopod)

Overall they're cost competitive with a dedicated insert or lower. They ship in a 5-round configuration and you clip off a plastic bar that serves as a stopper to set them to 10, 20, or 30 round

I'm waiting for my SBR paperwork to clear but I can give an update once I actually use them.

Also, PSA claims they have a "hybrid" 9mm BCG that works with Glock and Colt style mags, but I had nothing but trouble with it with my colt mags.

Thanks I will add that when I rework the PCC section

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Cyrano4747 posted:

I got ya fam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjhvi8c0MF4

They do a lot more than just shoot that poor lower. Run it over with a car, use it to do pushups, all sorts of dumb poo poo. The shooting it is at the end and is obviously the final bit.

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


I thought the WWSD thing was p neat, but not the end all be all of "hey do this" build guides. Did take some parts from their builds and put 'em in my rifle, tho. That captured buffer spring is just , especially paired up with a Geissele charging handle.

Kesper North
Nov 3, 2011

EMERGENCY POWER TO PARTY

Would I build a WWSD as my one and only rifle? No.

Do I want one to play with alongside my common or garden aluminum-lower-with-adjustable-stock AR? You betcha.

Kick-Puncher
Jan 20, 2006


What's a decent red dot for an AR-22? I was considering the holosun HS403G and the vortex sparc. Both are about the same price on sale.

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



Kick-Puncher posted:

What's a decent red dot for an AR-22? I was considering the holosun HS403G and the vortex sparc. Both are about the same price on sale.

I really like this AT3 red dot. With riser its $100, without its $75 and its been just as durable and nice to shoot as my vortex sparc is. I have 2, one as a cheap offset dot on my 3gun rifle, and one on my 10/22 and its performed well above expectations for me.

ZebraBlade
Mar 26, 2010

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

Kick-Puncher posted:

What's a decent red dot for an AR-22? I was considering the holosun HS403G and the vortex sparc. Both are about the same price on sale.

Both are good options. I would lean towards the Holosun. Also look at the Primary Arms SLx and Sig ROMEO5 are in the same price-quality range.

mischief
Jun 3, 2003



Whoa. I'd be really curious to know the story how that thing got into an individual's hands.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

mischief posted:

Whoa. I'd be really curious to know the story how that thing got into an individual's hands.

fell off of the back of a truck, then got amnestied during the NFA amnesty when they let folks register stolen machine guns as legit?

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

timn posted:

Gotta for a minute here just because it's within my field. When you touch something and feel how hot it is, what you're actually feeling is merely the rate of heat transfer between the surface of your skin and the object you're touching.

Rate of heat transfer in this case is proportional to two things, the thermal conductivity of the touching materials and the difference in temperature between them. The relevant difference between CF and aluminum here is that aluminum has a much higher thermal conductivity.

(Most metals have high thermal conductivity because of their highly organized crystalline structure at the molecular level, which helps the atoms transfer energy to each other more efficiently when they vibrate together. The crystalline structure also gives metals high electrical conductivity for a similar sort of reason. Contrast with glass, which is in fact not crystalline and has relatively low conductivity.)

Heat capacity measures how much energy it takes to raise the temperature of an object by a certain amount. So for a similar amount of thermal energy a higher heat capacity material might be at a lower temperature, which itself affects the rate of heat transfer depending on the temperature of whatever it's touching.

Yup that's all 100% true and I knew that and hosed up my explanation

Miso Beno posted:

Thanks I will add that when I rework the PCC section

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Miso Beno posted:

fell off of the back of a truck, then got amnestied during the NFA amnesty when they let folks register stolen machine guns as legit?

IIRC Colt sold off a lot of one-off and experimental stuff like that awhile back during one of the times they ran into financial problems.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Craptacular posted:

IIRC Colt sold off a lot of one-off and experimental stuff like that awhile back during one of the times they ran into financial problems.

I like my idea more.

mischief
Jun 3, 2003


I can see some prototypes going missing but that thing is incredibly rare.



I like your idea though. We need another NFA amnesty.

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boxen
Feb 20, 2011


timn posted:

smart words

I'm glad someone 'd that because I had to stop myself. I was rambling to a friend of mine about how you can be seated comfortably on wood at 140 degrees F in a sauna, but if you touch a metal screw at that temp it burns like gently caress, or if you spill water at that temp on your hand it hurts.
Things you learn about in school then forget about for years!

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