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Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Somebody Awful posted:

Right, the SOCOM profile isn't a heavy barrel in the sense of an HBAR build, just heavier than the government profile. My point was just that a heavier barrel isn't what defines an M4A1.

oh my bad!


Android Apocalypse posted:

Barrel fluting sounds expensive compared to having a barrel profile of various thicknesses.

Now I'm thinking of a barrel with radial/lateral fluting. I assume that type of fluting is more structurally weaker than traditional barrel fluting?

golfball fluting or bust

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Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone




As someone new to guns. It looks like I have basically two overall options for AR-15 type rifles and AR-15 pistols. Either buy one complete from a manufacturer or buy the various components and put them together. Am I better off getting a well put together rifle or pistol from a manufacturer, at what will likely be a premium? or is it so dog simple to put them together that I can safely purchase the components myself and put it together and not have it explode in my hands the first couple times I use it?

ArmyGroup303
Apr 10, 2004

If this were real life, I would have piloted this helicopter with you still in it.

Cyrano4747 posted:

Does it? The main thing that kills barrels is throat and muzzle erosion. FA is way worse for a barrel in that regard than even rapid mag dumps semi due to heat, but is the heavy profile going to soak enough in the chamber and at the end of the barrel to make that big a difference?

Good question and good point. Speculation on my part, but I imagine "cheaper" could come in two ways: the cost-benefit from mechanical durability (which I don't know for sure and could be questioned regardless, as you pointed out) and good ol' fashioned bulk-buy government spending.

Miso Beno posted:

oh my bad!
golfball fluting or bust

Hell yeah!

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

Don't let Lowtax go down with the ship. Do your part for these dead gay forums.


Nitrousoxide posted:

or is it so dog simple to put them together that I can safely purchase the components myself and put it together and not have it explode in my hands the first couple times I use it?

It's pretty simple. You will need a few specialized tools, but not anything hugely expensive. There are a few fiddly detents and roll pins to install but the rest isn't terrible if you're good at following instructions.

OTOH there's no shame in getting a pre-built AR from a good manufacturer.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Somebody Awful posted:

It's pretty simple. You will need a few specialized tools, but not anything hugely expensive. There are a few fiddly detents and roll pins to install but the rest isn't terrible if you're good at following instructions.

OTOH there's no shame in getting a pre-built AR from a good manufacturer.

There's also no shame in buying a preassembled lower and upper and sticking ' em together.

Mambo No. 5
Feb 24, 2009

Admiral Parry "Terror" Sornis,
Dead Birds Society


Or build a lower and buy an upper. The possibilities are endless!

Ceros_X
Aug 6, 2006

U.S. Marine


Nitrousoxide posted:

As someone new to guns. It looks like I have basically two overall options for AR-15 type rifles and AR-15 pistols. Either buy one complete from a manufacturer or buy the various components and put them together. Am I better off getting a well put together rifle or pistol from a manufacturer, at what will likely be a premium? or is it so dog simple to put them together that I can safely purchase the components myself and put it together and not have it explode in my hands the first couple times I use it?

If you can change your oil (or build a computer) you can build an AR. It may help if you watch a few videos online. It is definitely cheaper to buy an upper half and a lower half and stick them together yourself vs buying a complete gun (due to excise tax). The upper half is the hard part (well, the part requiring more tools etc) and my first few builds were complete uppers plus build my own lowers. What's your budget and what do you want to use your AR15 for (hunting, plinking, self defense, competition, etc)?

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE





Illegal Hen

Miso Beno posted:

golfball fluting or bust

Not all of us can afford Knights Armament Co stuff...

Nitrousoxide posted:

As someone new to guns. It looks like I have basically two overall options for AR-15 type rifles and AR-15 pistols. Either buy one complete from a manufacturer or buy the various components and put them together. Am I better off getting a well put together rifle or pistol from a manufacturer, at what will likely be a premium? or is it so dog simple to put them together that I can safely purchase the components myself and put it together and not have it explode in my hands the first couple times I use it?

Buying something complete is fast & easy, trading off with cost & sometimes not being able to get what you want in one package. Building from the ground up could* be cheaper and the end product is exactly what you want, but there's time spent on your end assembling it.

IMO building AR's are pretty simple provided you have the tools and you get the bonus of knowing your AR more intimately. I learned by watching YouTube vids and I'm an idiot, but I got exactly what I want because I'm left-handed & wanted as many ambi controls as possible.

One question is what do you want this AR to do for you?



*the opposite can be true if you end up putting high-end parts everywhere.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone




It would be for home defense and range use.

The lower half is the actual gun right? At least as far as the ATF is considered. So I assume that would be fully assembled so it'll have an ID number.

I just need to make if I get the parts separate I avoid building a SBR correct? Either a sufficiently long barrel or a shorter one with a brace and no forgrip.

Does the system for cycling the next round come with the upper? I assume that they are different, given what I read in the OP for different lengths. I wouldn't want to one that would be unable to cycle the next round because it can't handle the pressure.

Would you recommend a pistol or rifle? 5.56 or 300 blackout? I've seen both kinds. Blackout seems to be used mostly for pistols and is suppressible? Seems useful for a home defense gun to have it suppressed and shorter for easier movement.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Android Apocalypse posted:


Not all of us can afford Knights Armament Co stuff...
Or you can go with Black Hole Weaponry Colombia River Armory.

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


Nitrousoxide posted:

As someone new to guns. It looks like I have basically two overall options for AR-15 type rifles and AR-15 pistols. Either buy one complete from a manufacturer or buy the various components and put them together. Am I better off getting a well put together rifle or pistol from a manufacturer, at what will likely be a premium? or is it so dog simple to put them together that I can safely purchase the components myself and put it together and not have it explode in my hands the first couple times I use it?

Brownells has a whole playlist on youtube on how to build an AR, so you can see how simple it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k0aL0wtMPA

Buying prebuilt and upgrading things later as you prefer is perfectly viable as well!

FauxhawkSatan
Mar 27, 2010


Miso Beno posted:

Or you can go with Black Hole Weaponry Colombia River Armory.

Which currently has a 30% off sale going on right now

Beardless
Aug 12, 2011

I am Centurion Titus Polonius. And the only trouble I've had is that nobody seem to realize that I'm their superior officer.


Nitrousoxide posted:

It would be for home defense and range use.

The lower half is the actual gun right? At least as far as the ATF is considered. So I assume that would be fully assembled so it'll have an ID number.

I just need to make if I get the parts separate I avoid building a SBR correct? Either a sufficiently long barrel or a shorter one with a brace and no forgrip.

Does the system for cycling the next round come with the upper? I assume that they are different, given what I read in the OP for different lengths. I wouldn't want to one that would be unable to cycle the next round because it can't handle the pressure.

Would you recommend a pistol or rifle? 5.56 or 300 blackout? I've seen both kinds. Blackout seems to be used mostly for pistols and is suppressible? Seems useful for a home defense gun to have it suppressed and shorter for easier movement.

The lower is the gun, yes. They don't necessarily have to be bought assembled though, you can get whats usually referred to as a stripped lower that still has a serial number and is transferred via an FFL. That lets you put your own trigger in it. If you go this route you will also need a bunch of small parts, but these are often sold together as Lower Parts Kits or LPKs.

Yes. The relevant info here is that 16 inches is the legal limit for a rifle, so if you buy a barrel shorter than that you'll want a shoulder brace, not a stock.

If the upper is complete, then yes it will have the gas system. otherwise, you'll need the upper itself, the bolt and bolt carrier group (BCG), a barrel, a gas block, gas tube, and a barrel nut and handguard. The barrel will be built to handle a certain length of gas tube, so these two will have to match.

For a first AR, I would recommend a rifle in 5.56.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Android Apocalypse posted:

Barrel fluting sounds expensive compared to having a barrel profile of various thicknesses.

Now I'm thinking of a barrel with radial/lateral fluting. I assume that type of fluting is more structurally weaker than traditional barrel fluting?

Speaking as a mechanical engineer, you are correct that you'd lose structural strength with radial grooves instead of traditional axial fluting.

Your ability to carry bending loads is dictated by what's called the second moment of inertia, which is based on cross-section perpendicular to the bending axis. Specifically, how much material you have furthest from what's called the "neutral axis." For something axi-symmetric like most rifle barrels (or close enough to it) it's along the centerline, and the vast majority of the load is carried by the outside-most surface layer.

With fluting, you still have long ribs of material to carry bending with minimal loss of capability compared to the weight you save; the only price is increased manufacturing costs/time. If you did radial cuts though, you'd have lots of skinny sections that would bend between stiffer rings; it would basically be a weird slinky or spring.

If your cross-section changes along the length, the smallest/weakest points will have the largest deflections and possibly highest stresses (typically when you have sudden changes in stiffness or things called stress concentrators like holes, corners, or fillets)

Miso Beno posted:


golfball fluting or bust


Android Apocalypse posted:


Buying something complete is fast & easy, trading off with cost & sometimes not being able to get what you want in one package. Building from the ground up could* be cheaper and the end product is exactly what you want, but there's time spent on your end assembling it.

IMO building AR's are pretty simple provided you have the tools and you get the bonus of knowing your AR more intimately. I learned by watching YouTube vids and I'm an idiot, but I got exactly what I want because I'm left-handed & wanted as many ambi controls as possible.

One question is what do you want this AR to do for you?

*the opposite can be true if you end up putting high-end parts everywhere.

The best part about building it from the ground up is you will be familiar with the rifle from the ground up and how all the parts go together, which will make field repairs and diagnosing problems much easier.

That said there's no shame in buying a complete rifle, buying an assembled upper and lower and slapping them together, or building up one or both of the halves; do what you feel comfortable with and your budget allows.

In rough order of impact on shooting accuracy though I'd say trigger, barrel, optic, freefloated hand guard, BCG, and stock, so if you want to splurge I'd focus on them.

Friar Zucchini
Aug 6, 2010



The second half of that reminds me of a story I read where some camo-and-helmet type guy fighting in Operation Useless Dirt got an award or something when he got attacked and his M4 broke but he could still shootmans by hitting the bolt release after every shot.

Android Apocalypse
Apr 28, 2009

The future is
AUTOMATED
and you are
OBSOLETE





Illegal Hen

Miso Beno posted:

Or you can go with Black Hole Weaponry Colombia River Armory.

One of my friends tried getting a barrel from them but I believe they hosed up his order so badly he just asked for a refund.

Unless your is supposed to be .

DarkHorse posted:

I figured as much, thank you for the clarification.

Nitrousoxide, echoing a 5.56 as 1st AR is a safe choice. The market in general is kind of out of whack due to COVID-19 & people doing a little panic buying, but if you're patient you should be able to get something either pre-assembled or in parts you can build on your own time.

On an unrelated note, can PMAG's warp? I went shooting a couple weekends ago and noticed 3 of my Gen 2 and a Gen 3 stopped dropping freely when I hit the mag release. For context my lower is an Anderson lower with a KAC ambi mag release. My old USGI's & (almost all of) my Magpul Gen 3'a drop out.

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


Apparently there's a company that makes unmarked AR receivers called Unbranded AR. Surprisingly, you have can stuff engraved on the upper, but there isn't any options for the lower. Bear in mind, unmarked just means that they don't slap on a logo that looks like dicks on arachnids to make sure that you know it's from them. Standard manufacturer and other required engravings are still there. If you want to be REALLY unobtrusive with identification engravings, this is probably what you're looking for.

jwang fucked around with this message at 11:36 on May 20, 2020

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Miso Beno posted:

There's also no shame in buying a preassembled lower and upper and sticking ' em together.

Something to note about this is that if all you do is slap together a pre assembled lower and a pre assembled upper you still save money. IIRC thereís a tax on complete firearms that doesnít apply if you get the halves separately.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


Nitrousoxide posted:

It would be for home defense and range use.

The lower half is the actual gun right? At least as far as the ATF is considered. So I assume that would be fully assembled so it'll have an ID number.

I just need to make if I get the parts separate I avoid building a SBR correct? Either a sufficiently long barrel or a shorter one with a brace and no forgrip.

Does the system for cycling the next round come with the upper? I assume that they are different, given what I read in the OP for different lengths. I wouldn't want to one that would be unable to cycle the next round because it can't handle the pressure.

Would you recommend a pistol or rifle? 5.56 or 300 blackout? I've seen both kinds. Blackout seems to be used mostly for pistols and is suppressible? Seems useful for a home defense gun to have it suppressed and shorter for easier movement.

For home defense go with a 5.56 rifle. Keep a set of hearing protection with the rifle.

Something to keep in mind with AR pistols is that they're legal as long as the ATF feels like it. They can become a felony with no legislative action or notice given. They are a great halfway step if you're building and plan on making it an SBR, you can have a gun and make sure it works while waiting for the tax stamp to process. You can also transport a pistol AR a lot more easily.

The gas system is a part of a complete upper but will not be included in a stripped upper. The gas system length that works best depends on the barrel length you choose.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Cyrano4747 posted:

Something to note about this is that if all you do is slap together a pre assembled lower and a pre assembled upper you still save money. IIRC there’s a tax on complete firearms that doesn’t apply if you get the halves separately.

Yeah Pittman-Robertson requires the manufacturer pay an 11% excise tax when the gun is completed. It's not really whether the upper and lower are sold separately, it's whether the gun is a functional firearm. Awhile back I saw some place offering complete ARs without hammers and triggers so that they wouldn't have to pay the tax.

Internet Wizard posted:

Something to keep in mind with AR pistols is that they're legal as long as the ATF feels like it. They can become a felony with no legislative action or notice given.
Not quite. Barring a change in the law, there's nothing the ATF can do about an AR15 pistol. They could declare that AR15 arm braces are shoulder stocks (again), but that wouldn't make an AR15 pistol illegal, per se. It would just make the pistol + brace illegal. Remove the brace and there'd be nothing illegal.

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


Craptacular posted:

Yeah Pittman-Robertson requires the manufacturer pay an 11% excise tax when the gun is completed. It's not really whether the upper and lower are sold separately, it's whether the gun is a functional firearm. Awhile back I saw some place offering complete ARs without hammers and triggers so that they wouldn't have to pay the tax.

Not quite. Barring a change in the law, there's nothing the ATF can do about an AR15 pistol. They could declare that AR15 arm braces are shoulder stocks (again), but that wouldn't make an AR15 pistol illegal, per se. It would just make the pistol + brace illegal. Remove the brace and there'd be nothing illegal.

Or they decide the buffer tube itself counts as a stock

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004



Internet Wizard posted:

Or they decide the buffer tube itself counts as a stock

Although I don't believe braces are in any real danger for the foreseeable future, I would guess that the worst realistic scenario would be that the ATF would consider standard buffer tubes as stocks (or constructive intent) on AR-15 pistols, mandating the need to use shortened and non-indexed buffer tubes like what used to be common on AR-15 pistols before the invention of the SIG brace.

AKZ
Nov 4, 2009


The whole brace/pistol/sbr conversation would probably be something that I would want to avoid if the gun in question had the chance of becoming the subject of scrutiny in a home defense related shooting.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


"The gun was too easy to use indoors the home invaders did not have a fair chance"


"I swear I only fired from the cheek as prescribed by my lawyer and the ATFs technical division"

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Internet Wizard posted:

Or they decide the buffer tube itself counts as a stock
I guess that could happen. They could also classify all pistols as AOWs too. Most manufacturers have taken photos showing people shooting the manufacturer's handguns using both hands on the same handgun. This obviously means that the handgun is designed to be used with two hands, which makes it in fact not a handgun, but an AOW.

For example:

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Android Apocalypse posted:

One of my friends tried getting a barrel from them but I believe they hosed up his order so badly he just asked for a refund.

Unless your is supposed to be .

I figured as much, thank you for the clarification.

Nitrousoxide, echoing a 5.56 as 1st AR is a safe choice. The market in general is kind of out of whack due to COVID-19 & people doing a little panic buying, but if you're patient you should be able to get something either pre-assembled or in parts you can build on your own time.

On an unrelated note, can PMAG's warp? I went shooting a couple weekends ago and noticed 3 of my Gen 2 and a Gen 3 stopped dropping freely when I hit the mag release. For context my lower is an Anderson lower with a KAC ambi mag release. My old USGI's & (almost all of) my Magpul Gen 3'a drop out.

=

NeuroticErotica
Sep 9, 2003

Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...



I'm looking at buying a used one - can I share with somebody the specs/pictures and they help me determine if it's a good idea?

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


NeuroticErotica posted:

I'm looking at buying a used one - can I share with somebody the specs/pictures and they help me determine if it's a good idea?

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"



Fun Shoe

NeuroticErotica posted:

I'm looking at buying a used one - can I share with somebody the specs/pictures and they help me determine if it's a good idea?

Hell yeah. Go for it.

Arcella
Dec 16, 2013

Shiny and Chrome




May add on an ambi safety and an extended mag release but we'll see. Got the lower together with only one mar of the finish, installing the bolt release roll pin.

Also, gently caress roll pins.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Arcella posted:



May add on an ambi safety and an extended mag release but we'll see. Got the lower together with only one mar of the finish, installing the bolt release roll pin.

Also, gently caress roll pins.

They make a bolt hold pin thatís a slip in with an e-clip retainer.

boxen
Feb 20, 2011


Do ambi safeties have any other use than for shooting left-handed? I've debated getting one for builds before (just because it's just another piece of barbie furniture I don't have), but I never saw a reason to justify the price.

NeuroticErotica
Sep 9, 2003

Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...



Ok, so there's two I'm looking at... maybe y'all can help guide me.

I'm a lefty in CA, but haven't really had any problems with righty guns before. Fired ARs at ranges, mostly rentals, don't really have the tools to build one.

AR-A
$800
Comes with three 10-round magazines (magpul).

Specs:
Aero precision barrel 1:7 twist 5.56x45mm. Mid length gas system.
Aero precision handguard
Aero precision trigger parts kit.
Aero precision standard charging handle
Aero precision M16 black nitride bolt carrier group
VG6 Gamma Muzzle brake
Anderson manufacturing upper and lower.
Bravo company H2 buffer kit
Bravo Company gas rod
Sparrow Arms grip
UTG rear sight
AT3 tactical red dot scope (lifetime warranty that can be grandfathered in)
Magpul angle grip
Smith and Wesson standard M4 stock
Generic sling.
Real Avid cleaning kit
Generic soft case
turner's lock



https://ibb.co/F7GmNvc
https://ibb.co/YZqqNLG
https://ibb.co/V21skHq
https://ibb.co/YZ5fts6
https://ibb.co/1GRW1FV

AR-B $800
Great rifle with a Colt bolt/barrel. It has a fixed magazine by way of the Hogue Freedom Fighter Kit, and comes with four 10 rounders. It can be easily converted to featureless.

Parts:

Lower Receiver:
Ruger AR556 Lower
DPMS FCG and Parts Kit
MagLock Quick Release Rear Takedown Pin
Rock River Arms Stock
TacPad Rubber Stock Pad
Not sure who made the Buffer Tube and Buffer
BCM Grip
Hogue Freedom Fighter Fixed Magazine Pin

Upper Receiver:

Not sure who made the actual Upper. Has a finish blemish near the barrel nut, see photos
Colt Bolt
Colt 5.56 HBAR Barrel, currently has a low profile gas block but itís milled for a pinned gas block as well
Seekins MCMR 15 Inch Keymod Handguard, marked with the Primary Arms Logo. Missing one of eight screws, which has no effect on functionality. Easily replaced, I just havenít bothered because it doesnít really matter. Comes with an extra section of picrail for mounting a light or bipod
Cheap Scope, forget who made it, itís nothing special but it works.
Teardop Forward Assist
Standard Dust Cover
Ambi Charging Handle


Case:
Condition One #818 Case, 50 inches so plenty of room if you have another rifle or a lot of ammo/accessories
https://imgur.com/a/i83fCXi

NeuroticErotica fucked around with this message at 08:25 on May 21, 2020

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Yeah but how much is the second one? You said AR-A is $800, but didn't say how much AR-B is.

NeuroticErotica
Sep 9, 2003

Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...



BeAuMaN posted:

Yeah but how much is the second one? You said AR-A is $800, but didn't say how much AR-B is.

Oops. Edited it in. Itís $800 as well.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Are the prices negotiable? Iím kinda meh about both. There are parts I donít care for but those parts are also cheap to replace. Like I wouldnít take that optic if they are willing to drop the price for keeping the optic.

NeuroticErotica
Sep 9, 2003

Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...



Shaocaholica posted:

Are the prices negotiable? Iím kinda meh about both. There are parts I donít care for but those parts are also cheap to replace. Like I wouldnít take that optic if they are willing to drop the price for keeping the optic.

They've been lingering for a bit so probably.

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

Yeah I'm not in love with either build but have no reference on CA values.

BeAuMaN
Feb 18, 2014

I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERFUCKER!


Out of curiosity: Why these 2 particular ar-15s? I'm curious about your needs and thought process for coming down to deciding to buy these two used ARs

Since there's other options:
* There should be some featureless ARs out there for sale
* You can have a featured AR sent to an out of state middleman to make it featureless and then send to your local FFL. audiophil2 comes to mind. No idea if previous forum resident Mishaco does that. You'll have to ask them for cost and either you or they provide the parts. Having it done in-state is difficult since I think an AW license is required by the dealer afaik.
* (since you're lacking tools) You can buy a lower that is already featureless, or buy a lower and then make it featureless afterward with minimal tooling afaik. Then buy the upper separately and have it shipped to your house.

With that said I'm not really tuned into what AR prices are like during Covid-19.

Edit: Also welcome. If you ever have any California gun questions/legal questions, feel free to drop by in the California Shooting Thread.

BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 07:03 on May 21, 2020

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NeuroticErotica
Sep 9, 2003

Perform sex? Uh uh, I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you...



BeAuMaN posted:

Out of curiosity: Why these 2 particular ar-15s? I'm curious about your needs and thought process for coming down to deciding to buy these two used ARs

Looking through them has been complicated since theyíre all so customized so I took two that are decently near me and in a reasonable price range and took them here to gauge the waters. Iím not in a rush, and am open to other options (and appreciate the info). I just needed to get some sort of baseline for all this.

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