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SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


Union vote failed. Expected but still sucks rear end

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JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.




it's not the end, but it's certainly not good

i listened to a really long interview with one of the main organizers there (Working People podcast), and the conversations she described sounded so hard. the amount of misinformation was incredible. and that's with every loving labor organization in the country wanting to help get out the message.

it's a right to work state, but people still thought they would have to pay union dues even if they didn't want to, or that voting yes meant they had to pay dues. (i mean they should but that's not the point here). i've heard plenty more, but it's all essentially gossip, we'll see what happens later.

there are more fights to be fought

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




then you get stories like this: "LaVonette Stokes, who works as a labor organizer for the Alabama teachers union when she's not working at Amazon, and her husband are have positions as mid-level process guides that earn $15 to $19 an hour. But she said that a union for unskilled labor in Bessemer makes no sense and that it would move too slowly. She and her husband spent $2,400 of their own money to print flyers that detailed Amazon's benefits."

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

then you get stories like this: "LaVonette Stokes, who works as a labor organizer for the Alabama teachers union when she's not working at Amazon, and her husband are have positions as mid-level process guides that earn $15 to $19 an hour. But she said that a union for unskilled labor in Bessemer makes no sense and that it would move too slowly. She and her husband spent $2,400 of their own money to print flyers that detailed Amazon's benefits."

what on loving earth

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


That's not a hard to find viewpoint in unions with "skilled" workers or whatever you want to call it. Not the norm, but it definitely hangs around.

Anyone know other podcasts that are talking about this (in addition to the one mentioned above)?

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


Tom Smykowski posted:

That's not a hard to find viewpoint in unions with "skilled" workers or whatever you want to call it. Not the norm, but it definitely hangs around.

yeah, that sort of thinking goes back to the ooooold days of unions, where the AFL was committed to only organizing "skilled" workers and actively did not want "unskilled" [non-white] workers in their country, let alone in their unions. it's a bad way of thinking! organizing wall-to-wall is the only way (cough nurses unions)

apropos to nothing
Sep 5, 2003



Jane mcalavey has an article in nation about it. very good imo and describes a lot of the problems of this campaign which I’ve seen first hand and in other places in these high profile campaigns that fail. https://t.co/S0Z0EU4O0M

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.




DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

then you get stories like this: "LaVonette Stokes, who works as a labor organizer for the Alabama teachers union when she's not working at Amazon, and her husband are have positions as mid-level process guides that earn $15 to $19 an hour. But she said that a union for unskilled labor in Bessemer makes no sense and that it would move too slowly. She and her husband spent $2,400 of their own money to print flyers that detailed Amazon's benefits."
gently caress

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




i mean there are all kinds of ideological reasons ms. stokes might have liked one union and not another, but i think a big clue there is a couple who appear to make a combined sum of $35 an hour had $2400 just laying around to pay for anti union propaganda. amazon can just buy whomever they want.

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs of siren songs
To oohs to ahhs to big applause
With all of my anger I scream and shout
America, I love you but you're freaking me out


Biscuit Hider

The Nation had a write up about some of the bigger missteps of the campaign.

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-amazon-union/

I don't have a lot of experience in this myself but as a layperson these all sound like pretty valid critiques to me. Any thoughts?

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


We aren't affiliated with the union but we knocked on ninety percent of the doors in Bessemer over January and first half of Feb.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

We aren't affiliated with the union but we knocked on ninety percent of the doors in Bessemer over January and first half of Feb.

idk how to say it without using sports cliches, but you did a great job, maybe next time, etc

but i do appreciate the work you put in, and i do think you made a difference. it is a slow walk. i dunno i dont have the words except thank you for trying.

Oh Snapple!
Dec 27, 2005



DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

i mean there are all kinds of ideological reasons ms. stokes might have liked one union and not another, but i think a big clue there is a couple who appear to make a combined sum of $35 an hour had $2400 just laying around to pay for anti union propaganda. amazon can just buy whomever they want.

just exhibiting one of amazon's many benefits, imo, this one being that they'll let you wet your beak if you help them put down an attempt to unionize

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




amazon workers defeat jeff bezos by attempting to organize their workplaces over and over, taking a rotation as Designated Company Stooge to collect a pay bump

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


apropos to nothing posted:

Jane mcalavey has an article in nation about it. very good imo and describes a lot of the problems of this campaign which I’ve seen first hand and in other places in these high profile campaigns that fail. https://t.co/S0Z0EU4O0M
Thanks for this. Gonna pick up Confessions of a Union Buster from the library tomorrow and checking out the Black Work Talk podcast (both mentioned by Jane in the article).

The hitting the pavement vs digital connecting approach also mentioned in the article is something I run into a lot talking to folks from other Locals. Lotta older folks complaining that young punks just want to text and not meet up for even bullshit over the phone etc

apropos to nothing
Sep 5, 2003



yep. it’s a frustration I share and I’m not even that old. very easy to find a bunch of self described socialists these days, very hard to find the ones who will knock doors, make phone calls, stand at a table, etc.

poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

Tom Smykowski posted:

That's not a hard to find viewpoint in unions with "skilled" workers or whatever you want to call it. Not the norm, but it definitely hangs around.

Anyone know other podcasts that are talking about this (in addition to the one mentioned above)?

I'm in a very skilled/specialized union and I don't think any of us would ever oppose anyone organizing any workforce. We try to keep our focus relatively narrow, but like why on earth would one union's people oppose another union in another loving sector? We have jurisdictional beefs with other unions all the time but to oppose organizing a non-union dump like that would be unthinkable

poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

apropos to nothing posted:

yep. it’s a frustration I share and I’m not even that old. very easy to find a bunch of self described socialists these days, very hard to find the ones who will knock doors, make phone calls, stand at a table, etc.

a lot of socialists are staunchly anti-union now right? a lot of the online left sees any union seeking concessions within the wage labor system (as opposed to openly trying to abolish wage labor) as fundamentally anti-labor

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


SchnorkIes posted:

a lot of socialists are staunchly anti-union now right? a lot of the online left sees any union seeking concessions within the wage labor system (as opposed to openly trying to abolish wage labor) as fundamentally anti-labor

i haven't seen this but these people, if they exist, are dumb as poo poo

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


Carthag Tuek posted:

idk how to say it without using sports cliches, but you did a great job, maybe next time, etc

but i do appreciate the work you put in, and i do think you made a difference. it is a slow walk. i dunno i dont have the words except thank you for trying.

Nah I just mean the idea in that article- that there was nothing done to reach workers outside the workplace - is only partially true

apropos to nothing
Sep 5, 2003



SchnorkIes posted:

a lot of socialists are staunchly anti-union now right? a lot of the online left sees any union seeking concessions within the wage labor system (as opposed to openly trying to abolish wage labor) as fundamentally anti-labor

no they arent. fringe online weirdos are.

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

Nah I just mean the idea in that article- that there was nothing done to reach workers outside the workplace - is only partially true
It sounded like the RWDSU wasn't having the Amazon workers who were trying to unionize doing any actual door knocking. Not to minimize the good and hard work you did, but I think she raises a good point that the actual workers need to be doing the same thing, too.

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


apropos to nothing posted:

no they arent. fringe online weirdos are.
I was at a meeting for an alliance of different unions in the area and people would qualify their statements with stuff like "I gotta warn you, I'm a fringe far leftist..." and I'd expect some incoming hoxhaist idea and then they'd finish with "...I volunteered for Bernie before switching over to Biden"

The internet broke my brain.

apropos to nothing
Sep 5, 2003



Tom Smykowski posted:

I was at a meeting for an alliance of different unions in the area and people would qualify their statements with stuff like "I gotta warn you, I'm a fringe far leftist..." and I'd expect some incoming hoxhaist idea and then they'd finish with "...I volunteered for Bernie before switching over to Biden"

The internet broke my brain.

yep. get off the internet, especially twitter and even more especially cspam. have known so many people usually college students studying poli sci irl who will tell me all their radical ideas and how theyre so far left, and then complain about how they cant talk to any of their family or coworkers about politics because theyre all too conservative. as if the point of having marxist politics isnt to convince the people around you to take collective action for your mutual benefit. if you cant or are unwilling talk to a republican/trump voter about socialism and try to win them over to some of your ideas then what use are your ideas, and what use are you to the labor movement? a lot of the people you see posting online are those people, or sometimes untreated/poorly treated mentally ill individuals who are obsessed with conspiratorial thinking or fringe political movements.

the socialist movement in the us and globally is growing right now but its still mostly just that the ideas are becoming popularized more while the actual organization trails. to become mainstream and really fight for power we have to get organized which means having people who are committed to doing the long term nuts and bolts work of building organization meaning sitting through union meetings, keeping spreadsheets of contacts, canvassing/phonebanking/tabling. once you start doing that stuff you realize how disconnected most online discussion is from the actual political situation.

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!


Tom Smykowski posted:

It sounded like the RWDSU wasn't having the Amazon workers who were trying to unionize doing any actual door knocking. Not to minimize the good and hard work you did, but I think she raises a good point that the actual workers need to be doing the same thing, too.

That was what I meant by partially true lol. I agree

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.




SchnorkIes posted:

a lot of socialists are staunchly anti-union now right? a lot of the online left sees any union seeking concessions within the wage labor system (as opposed to openly trying to abolish wage labor) as fundamentally anti-labor

kingcobweb posted:

i haven't seen this but these people, if they exist, are dumb as poo poo
a few people like this are involved in my union. it is very stupid. they shoot down everything, until something is successful, and then suddenly want to be very involved in its implementation despite 1) hating it and 2) knowing nothing about details

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.




Tom Smykowski posted:

It sounded like the RWDSU wasn't having the Amazon workers who were trying to unionize doing any actual door knocking. Not to minimize the good and hard work you did, but I think she raises a good point that the actual workers need to be doing the same thing, too.
that stuck out to me as well.

if you don't have you fellow workers, no matter how well you know them or don't know them, giving you reasons to vote yes, you're gonna vote no or not at all

outsiders coming around doing the ground work is never a good look without that. it plays into a million stereotypes, especially in the south

even in our campaign, we were super hesitant about having even the union reps make primary contact with workers. they were available to talk at any time, but workers led the campaign from beginning to end.

not trying to piss on you SSJ, you're doing god's work, but you gotta have THE workers doing THE work

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.




apropos to nothing posted:

to become mainstream and really fight for power we have to get organized which means having people who are committed to doing the long term nuts and bolts work of building organization meaning sitting through union meetings, keeping spreadsheets of contacts, canvassing/phonebanking/tabling. once you start doing that stuff you realize how disconnected most online discussion is from the actual political situation.
the most important thing to say in this thread, right here

your online discourse can be helpful in getting a big picture, but you could never use twitter/CSPAM/whatever again and be fine

poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:

the most important thing to say in this thread, right here

your online discourse can be helpful in getting a big picture, but you could never use twitter/CSPAM/whatever again and be fine

Yeah like all the "unions shouldn't have paid officials" Twitter Discourse I have subjected myself to over the years has no basis in my reality lol

apropos to nothing
Sep 5, 2003



outside organization and organizers are good and imo essential to any kind of success for labor, especially support from the community. west virginia teachers demonstrated how important that is. but it has to be the workers who are taking the lead themselves and taking ownership of things themselves. theres a tendency among a lot of labor organizers to fall into a kind of substitutionalism where they do all the organizing and identify key workers as "leaders" which doesnt translate into actually building them up to be genuine leaders by training them to be effective organizers but more having them talk to the press, give public comments, and be the public face. this is for a variety of reasons. some are insidious like the fact that a lot of the us labor union infrastructure is totally bureaucratized due to the business unionism model theyve embraced which means they often dont want the workers being too militant. some are genuine and come from a good place because the paid staffers have the ability and knowledge to do this stuff and want to do it, or they feel theyre inconveniencing the workers, or sometimes they mistake a lot of passive support for willingness to do the work that would be necessary to organize, which turns out is not there when rubber meets the road.

poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

apropos to nothing posted:

some are insidious like the fact that a lot of the us labor union infrastructure is totally bureaucratized due to the business unionism model theyve embraced which means they often dont want the workers being too militant.

real talk, this is like the actual human position that some of the twitter left has boiled down into "unions are anti-labor" as far as i can tell

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


Need to change the bureaucratized and legalized structure of unionism in the US... better get some people who share similar conditions and goals together and make a structure to meet these ends...

Olive Branch
May 26, 2010

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.



Here in Quebec, lots of public sector workers got strike mandates from their unions these past few months. Us teachers are planning our first protest of the year this Wednesday morning. The school boards tried to file an injunction with the Quebec supreme court arguing our strike is illegal because we would be "too disruptive" or something and like... uh, that's what a strike is, bosses. The judge slapped them down, lmao.

I'm in charge of organizing the picket line as one of the two union reps at my school. I've got flags and am awaiting instructions from the union execs, but I'll make drat sure nobody gets past the protesting teachers, custodians, secretaries, and support staff.

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


basketball crossover episode: gently caress Duke https://discourseblog.com/ogletree-deakins-duke-unions/

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


To the surprise of absolutely nobody:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/amazon-prevented-free-and-fair-election-in-alabama-union-alleges.html

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/technology/amazon-workers-against-union.html

quote:

Why Amazon Workers Sided With the Company Over a Union

Pay, benefits and an aggressive anti-union campaign by the company helped generate votes at a warehouse in Alabama.

When Graham Brooks received his ballot in early February, asking whether he wanted to form a union at the Amazon warehouse in Alabama where he works, he did not hesitate. He marked the NO box, and mailed the ballot in.

After almost six years of working as a reporter at nearby newspapers, Mr. Brooks, 29, makes about $1.55 more an hour at Amazon, and is optimistic he can move up.

“I personally didn’t see the need for a union,” he said. “If I was being treated differently, I may have voted differently.”

Mr. Brooks is one of almost 1,800 employees who handed Amazon a runaway victory in the company’s hardest-fought battle to keep unions out of its warehouses. The result — announced last week, with 738 workers voting to form a union — dealt a crushing blow to labor and Democrats when conditions appeared ripe for them to make advances.

For some workers at the warehouse, like Mr. Brooks, the minimum wage of $15 an hour is more than they made in previous jobs and provided a powerful incentive to side with the company. Amazon’s health insurance, which kicks in on the first day of employment, also encouraged loyalty, workers said.

Carla Johnson, 44, said she had learned she had brain cancer just a few months after starting work last year at the warehouse, which is in Bessemer, Ala. Amazon’s health care covered her treatment.

“I was able to come in Day 1 with benefits, and that could have possibly made the difference in life or death,” Ms. Johnson said at a press event that Amazon organized after the vote.

Patricia Rivera, who worked at the Bessemer warehouse from September until January, said many of her co-workers in their 20s or younger had opposed the union because they felt pressured by Amazon’s anti-union campaign and felt that the wages and benefits were solid.

“For a younger person, it’s the most money they ever made,” said Ms. Rivera, 62, who would have voted in favor of the union had she stayed. “I give them credit. They start you out and you get insurance right away.”

Ms. Rivera left Amazon because she felt she wasn’t adequately compensated for time she had to take off while quarantining after exposure to Covid-19 at work, she said.

Amazon, in a statement after the election, said, “We’re not perfect, but we’re proud of our team and what we offer, and will keep working to get better every day.”

...

Crab bucket yet again stomps out a nascent union. People are convinced things can never get better and that they don't deserve it anyway.

RIP

Tom Smykowski
Jan 27, 2005

I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?


Listen to the no voters and all that but

lovely ny times posted:

Pay, benefits and an aggressive anti-union campaign by the company helped generate votes at a warehouse in Alabama.
Lol nytimes I feel like one of these was a much larger factor than the other 2

poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

Was that union even any good?

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


when it comes to making a union at Amazon, any union is going to be good. once you’re at a place with an established union, then you can worry about improving it. one thing at a time

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poll plane variant
Jan 12, 2021

evolution in action

kingcobweb posted:

when it comes to making a union at Amazon, any union is going to be good. once you’re at a place with an established union, then you can worry about improving it. one thing at a time

Yeah, I get that. But like there's hype on the street for certain unions (think ILWU) to where people are beating down the doors and not others.

Amazon was absolutely going to yank the healthcare, right? Fuckers.

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