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Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



mod edit: Find the old Cold War / Airpower thread here





Welcome to the new Cold War thread!

This is a chill thread where we discuss the Cold War, Air Power, Procurement and its Malcontents, some current events, weapons of mass destruction, post awesome photos of aircraft, and talk about how seeing Threads when we were eight kinda hosed us up. If you want to discuss any of those things, or learn about the worst things people can make, or try to parse why so many deranged things happened between 1945 and 1992, this thread is for you.

On current events: we like to nerd out and keep it chill around here, so some current events are discouraged but not forbidden, mainly because if you want to talk about X, it usually has a dedicated thread on SA somewhere. A message from our benevolent overseer on this:

Cyrano4747 posted:

I've said it before in this thread, but we're just in a strange spot where the actual subject material does intersect with politics and real life poo poo. The recent Iran crap is a good example of that. There were some great conversations about airpower related poo poo, and foreign policy and politics begins to get involved at the edges.

Once in a while things begin to get dumb, and that's when I just kind of waltz in and say "hey, pick a new topic for a bit." It's messy and arbitrary but I think it works. For the most part this thread attracts a set of people who can have discussions about foreign policy adjacent and politics adjacent poo poo and keep a level head. Once in a while they even delve into the nakedly political and have a really interesting couple of pages before i have to nudge things.

Here's an analogy I've used before. Any of you ever sneak a couple beers with friends when you were kids? I'm dad, I'm upstairs, and I know 3 teenagers splitting a six pack aren't going to burn the world down. Some kids getting tipsy in the basement is actually probably good, get to know their tolerances and all. If poo poo sounds like it's getting crazy then I have to go down to the basement and yell at the kids and address that whole thing. In a perfect world I'll stay up here and drink a beer of my own and watch the game and the kids can feel like they got away with something.

So what I'm saying is that if you crack a beer be loving cool about it and if you hear dad rattling some cupboard in the kitchen and jiggling the doorknob to the basement simmer down so no one's day has to get ruined. And if dad actually has to come down and ask what the gently caress stop what you were doing and do something low key and quiet for a bit until your buzz wears off.



The Cold War: CZECH OPTION

So when World War 2 ended, Europe was a ruin, as was South East Asia. China got back to its latest civil war. Many nations such as India were still emerging after being a colony. So the two big winners of World War 2, the United States and the Soviet Union, towered above the other nations. America's GDP was half of the Earth's, and its navy and air force was second to none. The Soviet Union had the largest Army, so large it was reckoned by the Americans that had the USSR felt like it, Soviet Forces could have conquered the rest of continental Europe in 30 days. Already physically the world's largest nation, the USSR was imposing communism on every nation it occupied, creating an empire that Genghis Khan could only dream about.

So two such nations likely would have been rivals regardless. But thanks to the ideological differences between them, the Cold War was inevitable. Not so much that there were differences; it was the defining of both sides in dipole absolutist terms that would fuel the conflict when realpolitik wasn't enough. Both sides saw the other as dedicated to their destruction for ideological reasons. Both sides saw the other as fanatical and duplicitous. Both sides saw the other as engaged in an arms race that was extraordinarily dangerous. While both sides didn't always think the same, they often did, and this obsessive mirror competition is one of the Cold War's strongest characteristics. In an irony, when this mirroring did not hold was sometimes the most dangerous. In an early 1980s peak of hostility, what western leaders saw as a renewal in determination to prevail over the Soviet Union, the USSR interpreted the newly aggressive stance a prelude to a sneak attack. This perception made the bellicose west's actions (who saw relations with the Soviet bloc as more or less stable and business as usual) nearly trigger World War Three, simply because they didn’t understand how their actions were perceived by the Soviet Union at the time.

Other fun characteristics include:



Paranoia. The paranoia both felt about the other had a thousand fathers, some of them entirely justified. The USSR had seen the most productive and fertile part of their nation destroyed in a savagery that's difficult to comprehend, even today. The USA saw the force of communist ideology linking with the USSR as a terrifying and effective force at flipping the allegiance of nations in the late 1940s. Stalin being Stalin certainly got paranoia off to a running start (I mean you can find quotes from noted pacifist Bertrand Russell about how a hard line was necessary against ol' Joe) but it was all pervading, and lingers with us today----



Proxy wars. Open conflict between the superpowers promised a war so cataclysmic, calling such a war Armageddon seemed to be underselling it. So, hostility was sublimated into covert operations and proxy wars. While obviously preferable to mutually assured destruction, the people and nations involved in these proxy wars might have a hard time believing that, as internal struggles became much more destructive when superpowers began supplying arms to both sides. America adopted an anti-democratic approach, not caring who they backed as long as the communists were wiped out, a policy that would extract its own costs, much in the same way as Germany paid heavy costs for shipping Vladimir Lenin to Imperialist Russia. The Soviets, for their part, could justify almost any action as supporting communism, even if in practice outside observers would describe it as straightforward imperialism. The distinction between ideology and obedience to the USSR functionally vanished - though I suppose the same could also be said of the USA.

Alliances. Both sides built alliance networks to protect themselves. In the USA, these were NATO, NORAD, and the 'five eyes' intel sharing treaty between the USA, the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. In the USSR, it was the Warsaw Pact. While the Warsaw Pact dissolved at the end of the Cold War, the three American treaty organizations are the cornerstones of the defenses of both the United States and the other nations involved - which is something of a mixed blessing for all concerned.



Anti-Ballistic Missile structure under construction.



XB-70 at takeoff.

Military Industrial complexes. Both sides built up giant industries centered around defense, and the continued existence of such industries would drive both an arms race and needless expenditure. While most people are familiar with the American Military Industrial complex, the Soviet Union had it arguably worse, with the wealth of nations being invested in weapons that unless Armageddon came calling were massively expensive holes in the ground. This also was wrapped up with---



Nuclear Weapons. The world was quick to put together that once the peanut butter of nuclear weapons was combined with the jam of inter-continental ballistic missiles, the world was toast. Nuclear weapons by themselves promised physical destruction on a level inconceivable at the start of World War 2, and were rapidly developed by both superpowers into a staggering array of canned sunshine choices, from the 0.02 kT Davy Crockett field munition to the 100 megaton (100,000 kT) Tsar Bomb, both tested within 15 years of the ~ 15 kT bomb used at Hiroshima. Once ballistic missiles demanded smaller warheads post 1960, weapon shifted from making bigger bombs to fitting more on to ballistic missiles and their Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicle (MIRV) warheads. Missile and warhead numbers soon multiplied to the point that civil defense against nuclear attack was abandoned as largely pointless. Nuclear weapons also gave birth to a whole series of new ideas, like megadeath as a unit of measurement, debates about countervalue vs. counterforce targeting, and how much warning there would be if an attack happened. [Thanks to distance, the USA/Soviet Union would have a luxuriant half hour to wait for missile strikes; the USSR striking Europe produced warning times that amounted to “don’t bother warning anyone.”]



One bit of wisdom from the old thread I'll remember: "there's a big difference in destructive capability between 50-500 warheads, but no difference at all once you push past 5000."

Deterrence. When dealing with the twisted logic of the cold war, the only way to safely defend oneself was to promise destruction to any nation that attacked with nuclear weapons. The only way to ensure such a capability was the hedging of bets and the deployment of a wide variety of weapon systems in great numbers. The acme of these was the new capital ship class of ballistic missile submarines. The deadliest warships ever built, a single submarine has enough firepower to destroy nations, hidden beneath the waves. The largest of these, the famous (and famously expensive) Typhoon class SSBNs was built as deterrence just in case the USSR's enemies managed to take out their land-based ballistic missiles and its armada of strategic bombers in a sneak attack. The fleet once completed was to have all by themselves the ability to destroy any conceivable attacker. Upon a signal, Typhoons would surface, erupting through the Arctic sea ice, then launching its payload of 20 bespoke SS-N-20 missiles, each carrying up to ten nuclear warheads of 100-200 kT each. At peak service, six Typhoons carried 120 ballistic missiles (or if you prefer, 1200 warheads), all by themselves capable of destroying NATO.

Oh, and while making this new OP, I came across this fact. Reloads for ballistic missile submarines in the west typically was provisioned for at a 1.5 to 1 ratio, IE 1.5 missiles in storage for every one missile deployed on a sub. The USSR in contrast built 7-8 reloads for each deployed missile. So, not only did the Soviets develop a new missile just for the Typhoon class, they had planned to build ~ 840 reloads, once again, larger than every other nation on earth's nuclear deterrent (once again putting aside the Cold War USA.)



Books, thread approved: CHAD ALERT

Nonfiction

Command and Control by Eric Schlosser. On American command and control of nuclear weapons, you’ll run out of profanity at some points.

Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants by John D. Clark. An astonishingly readable book on the development of the stuff that makes rockets go. Formerly out of print, recently given a new issue.

The Dead Hand by David E. Hoffman. Pulitzer prize winning journalism about...lots of things, including the USSR’s deadman switch for its atomic arsenal, and Russia’s continued to this day biowarfare program. The source of this priceless story:

Nebakenezzer posted:

The Aral Smallpox incident

The Soviets had a weaponized version of smallpox, and they sequestered this program on islands in the Aral Sea. This was a good security precaution as the site, known as Aralsk-7, had a history of association with mass deaths of fish, various regional plague outbreaks, a saiga antelope die-off, and individual cases of infectious disease among visitors to Rebirth Island.

Rebirth Island is a island near to Aralsk-7. To quote wikipedia:

“According to Soviet General Pyotr Burgasov (Peter Burgasov), field testing of 400 grams of smallpox at Renaissance Island caused an outbreak on July 30, 1971.[6] Burgasov, former Chief Sanitary Physician of the Soviet Army, former Soviet Vice-Minister of Health and a senior researcher within the Soviet BW program, described the incident:

On Vozrozhdeniya Island in the Aral Sea, the strongest recipes of smallpox were tested. Suddenly I was informed that there were mysterious cases of mortalities in Aralsk (Aral). A research ship of the Aral fleet came to within 15 km of the island (it was forbidden to come any closer than 40 km). The lab technician of this ship took samples of plankton twice a day from the top deck. The smallpox formulation—400 gr. of which was exploded on the island—”got her” and she became infected. After returning home to Aralsk, she infected several people including children. All of them died. I suspected the reason for this and called the Chief of General Staff of Ministry of Defense and requested to forbid the stop of the Alma-Ata-Moscow train in Aralsk. As a result, the epidemic around the country was prevented. I called [future Soviet General Secretary Yuri] Andropov, who at that time was Chief of KGB, and informed him of the exclusive recipe of smallpox obtained on Vozrazhdenie Island.[7][8]”


So it's the start of a Michael Crichton novel, or maybe The Stand. Fortunately, massive action was taken immediately, with some 50,000 people evacuated from the nearby area. People who had been inoculated against Smallpox beforehand recovered, while infected people who had not received inoculation died.

Midnight At Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham. An essentially arbitrary book choice [there are many excellent ones] on the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. A story from it:

quote:

The engineers then began to lay siege to the reactor, advancing on it slowly from behind a series of “pioneer walls” to shield building workers from the invisible fusillade of gamma rays streaming from within the ruins. At a safe distance, the engineers welded hollow steel forms, 2.3 meters square and almost 7 meters long, which they stacked like huge bricks on flatbed railcars. They pushed these into position around the reactor using armored combat engineering vehicles, and concreted them in place—railcars and all—using pumps stationed at least 300 meters away. More than 6 meters high and 7 meters thick, the resulting walls threw a “gamma shadow” in which workers could remain safely for up to five minutes at a time.

Ecocide in the USSR: Health And Nature Under Siege by Murray Feshbach and Alfred Friendly Jr. Written just after the end of the Cold War, it documents a major factor in the collapse of the USSR: health and environmental neglect on a staggering scale. Required reading for anybody who thinks about modern China frequently.

Fiction

On the Beach by Neville Shute. The World blew itself up, and Southern Australia has a season or two before the radioactive cloud enveloping the world reaches them What it lacks in occasional technical details it makes up for with despair. Also a good old movie and a bad recent one.

Alas, Babylon by Pat Frank. Like On the Beach, it was the nuclear apocalypse as imagined around 1960. In Alas, Babylon's case, the narrative is centered around a small town in Florida dealing with the (metaphorical) fallout of now being an island in a sea of radioactive rubble. Downright optimistic compared to most other fiction if you need something like that.

Fire Lance by David Mace. What looks like a 70s technothriller is in fact the logic of the Cold War with no arms control.

A twofer from author Charles Stross: the Novella “A Colder War” and a short story, “digital walrus”



Movies, thread approved: ARABIAN CLANDESTINE

Dr. Strangelove (1964.) It’s really funny, but then you learn a lot of the jokes are concise Cold War policy summaries.

Fail-Safe (1964). Produced around the same time as Strangelove, it’s the same basic plot (accidental nuclear exchange) except played straight. Once you see it you’ll understand why 1960s audiences preferred the comedy. Many fine actors in this ensemble piece, including Walter Matthau playing a pre-Henry Kissinger.

The Day After (1983). A miniseries but whatev, sometimes credited with getting Reagan to understand Nuclear War is awful. Appears to have genuinely caused a shift in US policy, so good job Steve Gutenberg!

Threads (1984). Also a miniseries, whatev, the British take on The Day After is so relentlessly (and realistically!) grim you can only cackle nihilistically when you read the directors first instinct was to use the contemporary cast of Coronation Street to film it. Avoid the Kardashian remake, but watch the poo poo out of this half-hour documentary the BBC prepared as a supplement.

Miracle Mile (1988). Somewhat obscure today, it mixes a romantic comedy with the start of a nuclear war, the ending is legendary. It was denied the fame it deserved because movie producers throughout the 1980s wanted to change that ending because they felt it too dark, and it was only released at the Cold War’s end.

War Games (1983). An unusually intelligent movie all around about a NORAD defense computer and a computer hacker, it’s one of the very few movies with a *realistic* take on computer hackers. Also humanity may die, TBD.

The Pentagon Wars (1998). A comedy about military procurement, just don’t confuse it with something factual.

Strategic Air Command (1955). If the Strategic Air Command (SAC) of the USAF had a public relations problem by the mid 1960s, ten years earlier they reached a peak with this Jimmy Stewart movie. Produced with full cooperation with SAC, it features amazing real-life footage of the B-36 ‘Peacemaker’ intercontinental bomber.

When the Wind Blows (1986). [Hat tip: SlowBloke] A British hand-drawn animated film based on a graphic novel, pensioners face nuclear annihilation. It is depressing.



Good Resources: ATLANTIC HEAVY

Covert Shores Blog. If it is undersea and secret, hsutton has drawn a picture of it. Excellent resource for understanding submarines, narco 'subs', UAVs.

Restricted Data - Nuclear Secrecy blog. Written by a science historian, this blog is all about atoms exploding. Especially rich about early American atomic bomb history. Also the guy who made NUKEMAP.

armscontrolwonk is a blog and podcast done by experts in WMDs and their proliferation. When something involving these pops up in the news, these people always have intelligent comments.

Defense Watch blog. The essential blog for all things Canadian Military related. Shut up, there were like 5 of us Canadians in the last thread.

For the last decade the previous thread was running, Canada was trying to replace its fighter aircraft and failing. bestfighter4canada is a blog following this bleak house style procurement saga

Atomic-annhilation.com. Great site for cold war images.



Cold War Related Miscellaneous Links: GREENLAND DOMESTIC

One of the old thread's favorite documents: 1970s ICBM basing options from the RAND corporation.

CNN's official video to play in case "the world ends"

The Nuclear Security Administration Lost a Film Titled 'Skull Melting Demonstration'

Project Iceworm: the Rebel base on Hoth but real and 1950s.

Sprint point defense ABM. A US anti-ballistic missile that launched itself via explosive and needed incredibly powerful radio to cut through the cone of plasma its flight generated. Moar Sprint video

Meet the stars of the Strategic Defense Iniative, AKA Star Wars!

If you've never heard of Able Archer '83, the history guy made a good video.



Effortposts (previous iteration): S.AFRICAN SUBVERSION

Effortpost on the Convair B-36 Peacemaker.

Three posts I did for the last thread on Russia's Kirov class battlecruisers:

Kirov! 1: Origin of Soviet Nuclear Battlecruisers

Kirov! 2: More Options than a Mercedes S-class

Kirov! part 3: Kirovs in Soviet/Russian service

Xerxes17 in the mil history thread did some excellent effort posts on Soviet tank development. While the products were sometimes revolutionary (T-64) or quite useful (T-72) the story does talk about a poo poo-ton of needless competition, political shenanigans, and a process that has the Soviet Union fielding three MBTs with nothing common between them.

The T-64

Object 172 Aka, T-72 “Straight outta Nihzny Tagil Ft. Leonid Kartsev”

The T-80: Explosion at the Soviet Haywire Factory

hobbesmaster has a comprehensive US government report on EM effects of nuclear weapons





Effortposts (current iteration): NICARAGUAN PREEMPTIVE

Cyrano on US Navy ship names. There's no USS Richard Nixon supercarrier I mean think about it there is zero chance that thing wouldn't be nicknamed "the big dick"

Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 22, 2020

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Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

Don't let Lowtax go down with the ship. Do your part for these dead gay forums.


The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Firing Range > Cold War Thread 2: Electric Canberra Boogaloo

Miso Beno
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

i like big bombs and i cannot lie

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Thank you for the OP and also goddamn that style of art is so iconic. Not just for war stuff, but old space logos, car ads, or even just “we are farming over here” posters.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



If you have any additions or suggestions, please let me know. Also sorry for using myself a lot, most of the material I got by browsing my own posting history in the previous thread. I'm hoping re effortposts the cold war krew will fill it out a bit.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Awesome OP. Thanks for taking the time to get that done. And getting it done on time for a 1991 end to the last thread.

New thread under budget and on time. Cold War thread procurement success story.

It's OK, we'll subcontract the next one out to Irving and Bombardier

MRC48B
Apr 2, 2012



We should make an AIRPOWER/90s thread, where we can talk about stuff like:

How awesome the A-12 Avenger 2 will be.

The V-22 and Comanche will get fielded any day now!

and man, did you notice how charismatic that new president of Serbia is?

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

MRC48B posted:

We should make an AIRPOWER/90s thread, where we can talk about stuff like:

How awesome the A-12 Avenger 2 will be.

The V-22 and Comanche will get fielded any day now!

and man, did you notice how charismatic that new president of Serbia is?

Boy oh boy I can't *wait* for the AST-21 Tomcat!

Dante80
Mar 23, 2015



Awesome OP. Prose, content and artwork are fire.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless


MRC48B posted:

We should make an AIRPOWER/90s thread, where we can talk about stuff like:

How awesome the A-12 Avenger 2 will be.

The V-22 and Comanche will get fielded any day now!

and man, did you notice how charismatic that new president of Serbia is?

Thank goodness we've got the B-1B online now, those B-52's were getting pretty antiquated and well overdue for replacement.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

Don't let Lowtax go down with the ship. Do your part for these dead gay forums.


Jumping back to this for a moment because I did a small shitload of reading on the topic over the summer.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Midnight At Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham. An essentially arbitrary book choice [there are many excellent ones] on the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.

Midnight in Chernobyl is a better account of the disaster than many, especially HBO's, but it's not without its own errors. A particularly obvious example:

quote:

Upstairs at mark + 12.5, in the cavernous three-story pump room alongside the reactor vault, Senior Coolant Pump Operator Valery Khodemchuk stood at his post, engulfed in the thunderous roar of all eight main circulation pumps working at once.

If you look at a floor plan of CNPP's fourth block, you'll see there are two pump rooms with four pumps each, one on either side of the reactor hall. The north side room was exposed to open air when the outer walls collapsed and the pumps can be seen in pre-sarcophagus photographs taken from outside the reactor building. For all its flaws, HBO's version recreated this detail vividly.

Also, make sure to read the end notes and citations and take any statement that cites Grigori Medvedev with a large grain of sand and boron, especially if it's a dramatic scene. Medvedev invented a bunch of bullshit to sex up his own account of Chernobyl, published relatively soon after the event, and subsequent authors have been largely content to repeat his lies even when they're flatly contradicted by the testimony of pretty much everyone who was actually there and lived to tell about it. Nobody had heated arguments in the control room. Nobody went into the reactor hall and saw channel caps bouncing up and down. Nobody, so far as has been credibly determined, got close enough to actually see the destroyed reactor and report back.

What is the cost of lies? Thirty years of tainted scholarship.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Great OP! The previous thread was one of my favorites on the forums, and I'm looking forward to plenty of future stories of Cold War horrors and nuclear near-disasters in this one.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Wingnut Ninja posted:

Thank goodness we've got the B-1B online now, those B-52's were getting pretty antiquated and well overdue for replacement.

Shhhh! Dale Brown will hear you!

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

Dreams, Amelia - dreams and false alarms

Megamarm


I can't think of a better post to make to start a new Cold War/Airpower thread, than one with a B-52 in it. So here you go.

C.M. Kruger
Oct 28, 2013


Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006




BRB buying a panel van to have that airbrushed on

Zebulon
Aug 20, 2005

Oh god why does it burn?!


Some sort of weird hovercraft system for launching aircraft off a damaged runway?

brains
May 12, 2004




everything about this, just

Stravag
Jun 7, 2009


Its so goddamn amazingly cold war jesus

Groda
Mar 17, 2005



Hair Elf

Only registered members can see post attachments!

DeesGrandpa
Oct 21, 2009



Airplanes are rad











helno
Jun 19, 2003
hmm now were did I leave that plane

A little bit of cold war history I hiked out to a few years ago.



https://imgur.com/a/PMvcRE6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgoyne%27s_Cove

"Wikipedia" posted:

On 18 March 1953, Brigadier General Richard E. Ellsworth was co-piloting a Convair RB-36H Peacemaker bomber on a 25-hour journey as part of a simulated combat mission flying from Lajes, Azores back to the Rapid City Air Force Base.[1] As part of their exercise, the bomber's crew was observing radio silence and had switched off their radar guidance, flying via celestial navigation. They had planned to fly low over the ocean, steadily increasing to higher altitudes before reaching the mountainous countryside of Newfoundland.

Late into the night, the aircraft struck bad weather and went off course, reaching Newfoundland 90 minutes earlier than planned. At 4:10 am near Burgoyne's Cove, with sleet, fog,[2] freezing drizzle, and visibility estimated at less than 1⁄8-mile (200 m), the plane struck an 896-foot (273 m) hill at 800 feet (244 m) with a ground speed of 202 knots (374 km/h; 232 mph). The aircraft's propellers severed the tops of pine trees while the plane's left wing hit the ground, tore off, and spilled fuel.[3] The rest of the plane impacted some thousand feet (300 m) further. The impact and subsequent fire from the plane's fuel tanks scorched an 8-foot-deep (2.4 m) trench in the countryside. Loggers on a nearby hill spotted the fireball and alerted rescuers, but all 23 on board were killed on impact.[4] That same night, a Boeing SB-29 Superfortress search and rescue plane was sent out to assist in search efforts, but crashed two hundred miles (320 km) west in St. George's Bay.[3][5][6][7]

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless


Airpowers.













Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"



Fun Shoe

Is there any good reason for countries like Germany abandoning nuclear power? Oh is it just people overreacting? I thought cleanly done nuclear power was better for the environment than many things. But I know dick all about any of this stuff.


It sure seems like once that genie is out of the bottle, it’s not going back in. I also will never forget taking trains through Scotland and seeing the big nuclear smokestack looking things.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Captain Log posted:

Is there any good reason for countries like Germany abandoning nuclear power? Oh is it just people overreacting? I thought cleanly done nuclear power was better for the environment than many things. But I know dick all about any of this stuff.


It sure seems like once that genie is out of the bottle, it’s not going back in. I also will never forget taking trains through Scotland and seeing the big nuclear smokestack looking things.

Well for one you aren’t going to get notifications from coal plants like the one that happened by accident in Ontario yesterday causing mass pants making GBS threads


https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/we...error-1.4763685

quote:

The Ontario government admitted to erroneously sending out a mass alert telling of an “incident” at Pickering Nuclear Generating Station on Sunday, sending people across the region into a panic as they sent a retraction notice approximately 106 minutes later.
At about 7:25 a.m. on Sunday, the province said an incident was reported at the station, located off of Montgomery Park Road in Pickering.
“There has been NO abnormal release of radioactivity from the station,” the alert read. “People near the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station DO NOT need to take any protective actions at this time.”
A retraction alert went out to phones at about 9:11 a.m.
“The people of Ontario should not have had to start their Sunday morning this way,” Solicitor General Sylvia Jones told CP24. “This morning’s error was inexcusable.”

Logically yes, nuclear is a potentially cleaner and even safer option than GHG causing options but people by and large in large groups are neither logical or rational.

I think the reason it is successful in France especially in the west is due to the French weird blasé attitude to basically everything.

priznat fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jan 13, 2020

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010








Grimey Drawer

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

Smiling Jack
Dec 2, 2001

I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.



just here to not discuss the avro arrow

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

Dreams, Amelia - dreams and false alarms

Megamarm

Lawman 0 posted:

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

For prototypes, I'd have to say the tail sitters.

For stuff that made production, maybe the Vought F7U Cutlass.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


Lawman 0 posted:

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

There are a lot of good contenders here. Among ones that actually entered service I submit the F7U Cutlass and the Sea Vixen.

Groda
Mar 17, 2005



Hair Elf

Captain Log posted:

Is there any good reason for countries like Germany abandoning nuclear power? Oh is it just people overreacting? I thought cleanly done nuclear power was better for the environment than many things. But I know dick all about any of this stuff.

It's because the anti-nuclear power movement here in Northwestern Europe really grew out of the nuclear disarmament movement. If you want to have discussion on nuclear energy and its roll in reducing climate change, the German just won't have it -- because that's never what it was to begin with. Germany has all sorts of ideological baggage from 1968, which is stacked on top of denazification, which is all coated with batter and bread crumbs and fried in Reunification.

Add to that, since they have an endless supply of coal, they can afford to turn it all off, because ideology is only going to last until the first rolling blackouts. And all the environmentally ambivalent know that in the back of their head.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



Lawman 0 posted:

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

Like in concept or in actual use?

Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE



Lawman 0 posted:

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

I feel like the idiots that have advocated for building the Arrow today as a part of the ongoing Canadian fighter procurement disaster deserve special mention.

Fearless fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jan 13, 2020

Dante80
Mar 23, 2015









Project Ithacus rocked.

Dante80 fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 13, 2020

Bobby Digital
Sep 4, 2009


https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonnyc/...8278188034?s=21

MRC48B
Apr 2, 2012



Lawman 0 posted:

First time poster in this thread.
So what was the dumbest aircraft of the cold war?

The Thunderscreech

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005



priznat posted:

Well for one you aren’t going to get notifications from coal plants like the one that happened by accident in Ontario yesterday causing mass pants making GBS threads


https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/we...error-1.4763685


Logically yes, nuclear is a potentially cleaner and even safer option than GHG causing options but people by and large in large groups are neither logical or rational.

I think the reason it is successful in France especially in the west is due to the French weird blasé attitude to basically everything.

Yeah a coal plant releases uranium into the atmosphere when everything is working normally.

The coal burned for power in the US in 2017 itself contained enough uranium to fuel fifty 1000MW reactors for a year.

dubzee
Oct 23, 2008



Auto 5 for Cat poo poo One

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless


Mortabis posted:

There are a lot of good contenders here. Among ones that actually entered service I submit the F7U Cutlass and the Sea Vixen.

Was it the Cutlass that has such awful engines that one returning to base with an engine failure was once told to wait because there were two other jets, also with engine failure, in the pattern in front of him? I remember it was one of those early 50's jets like the Cutlass or the Demon.

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Captain Log posted:

Is there any good reason for countries like Germany abandoning nuclear power? Oh is it just people overreacting? I thought cleanly done nuclear power was better for the environment than many things. But I know dick all about any of this stuff.


It sure seems like once that genie is out of the bottle, it’s not going back in. I also will never forget taking trains through Scotland and seeing the big nuclear smokestack looking things.

Anti-nuclear sentiment is very strong and deeply ingrained in Germany, especially former W. Germany. To give you an example, my father went from protesting Germany-based nuclear weapons to serving out his conscription in the Bundeswehr within a month, nbd. It was a large part of early life for a certain generation of Germans. Ever wonder why German guns don't come from the (German) factory with tritium sights? The gas is illegal in Germany, as it's a component needed to make bombs. They are very specific about poo poo like that.

Germany now is perfectly happy to shut down the nuke plants aaaaaand let the French NPP's right over the border provide clean, cheapish energy. It wins over most voters, from the CSD to the Greens, no one will attach their name to nuke power in-country.

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MikeCrotch
Nov 5, 2011

I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese


One thing with nuclear power is that if you are an environmentalist who believes in decarbonising as much as possible by 2025-2030 nuclear power plants just take so long to build they don't really help, so you would be better off with renewables and reducing demand (or so the argument goes).

Note this mostly applies to countries like the UK and Germany which don't really have a native nuclear industry, and so need outside help to build plants which also means you don't get economy of scale, unlike in the US or France for example.

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