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standard.deviant
May 16, 2012

Globally Indigent

LRADIKAL posted:

Well, now you're homeless! Time to bootstrap up, and get a new place!
Just hope you can get a permit for the new one

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Stravag
Jun 7, 2009



I'm still trying to find to terms with "oh yeah we warned the people we were going to shoot the building with a missile by shooting a smaller missile into it first"

standard.deviant
May 16, 2012

Globally Indigent

I wonder what percentage of time the dud missile just knocked the building over.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Rooftops are functional spaces in places like Gaza.

Those “little” missiles have certainly killed people who were up there hanging laundry to dry.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Stravag posted:

I'm still trying to find to terms with "oh yeah we warned the people we were going to shoot the building with a missile by shooting a smaller missile into it first"

The IRA was severely criticized by many around the world for giving a mere 37 minutes of warning before a bombing.

Apparently they should’ve waited 40 years.

RoastBeef
Jul 10, 2008


Interesting thread:
https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/1393019878374887432?s=20

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

priznat posted:

There is an entire spectrum of suckitude and while being alive is better than dead having your home exploded with minutes of warning would definitely fall somewhere on the “this poo poo sucks” side of the spectrum.

Yes!

Also all bombing sucks. And indiscriminate is scary. But there is a chance your home makes it and you can shelter in place. If you get told your whole building is about to be leveled in minutes (this does not always happen of course), then you have the panic of evacuating and knowing your home is gone. As a bonus, the IDF deliberately cratered a bunch of street intersections. Makes evacuations and emergency assistance harder.

Warbadger
Jun 17, 2006


priznat posted:

There is an entire spectrum of suckitude and while being alive is better than dead having your home exploded with minutes of warning would definitely fall somewhere on the “this poo poo sucks” side of the spectrum.

Yeah, I don't think anybody would dispute that a lot of things would suck about that situation. The warning to evacuate before the building exploded and collapsed would not be one of the things that sucked, though. I don't think anybody is walking up to the smoking rubble here and thinking "drat, I wish they hadn't warned us".

mlmp08 posted:

Yes!

Also all bombing sucks. And indiscriminate is scary. But there is a chance your home makes it and you can shelter in place. If you get told your whole building is about to be leveled in minutes (this does not always happen of course), then you have the panic of evacuating and knowing your home is gone. As a bonus, the IDF deliberately cratered a bunch of street intersections. Makes evacuations and emergency assistance harder.

As it happens you can also shelter in place during precision bombings! With the added bonus that if somebody warns you where the bombs will fall, you can choose not to shelter in that particular place. If you don't get told your whole building is about to be leveled in minutes then you have the panic of getting a bomb dropped on you, evacuating, and then knowing your home/family/neighbors are gone - unless of course you're already dead in the explosion and collapse of the structure in which case I suppose there's less panicking. As a bonus, indiscriminate bombing often damages streets and intersections. Makes evacuations and emergency assistance harder.

Warbadger fucked around with this message at 03:39 on May 14, 2021

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


The point is to blow up buildings being used by Hamas, not to just blow up stuff for no reason. It sucks for people who live in the building and sucks a lot less for everyone else.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Mortabis posted:

The point is to blow up buildings being used by Hamas, not to just blow up stuff for no reason.

This is taking the IDF Twitter account too neatly at face value.

And the US doesn’t level a multi-story apartment because a bad dude did a thing there. That’s unacceptable targeting for us.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

The other thing that sucks is being in a house since the 1940s, but being told it now belongs to settlers from another nation.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


mlmp08 posted:

This is taking the IDF Twitter account too neatly at face value.

And the US doesn’t level a multi-story apartment because a bad dude did a thing there. That’s unacceptable targeting for us.

These two statements in such close proximity just made my ironometer explode.

C.M. Kruger
Oct 28, 2013


CarForumPoster posted:

This really fucks with me. People standing outside gawking at rocket attacks in Israel. Palestinians seemingly knowing exactly where and when the airstrike is but unable to protect themselves, so they set up a photo op. The whole of Gaza is smaller than SF county.

I found one that's even more surreal. Kids hanging out and playing on a trampoline a couple blocks away from artillery/bombs going off.
https://twitter.com/RealNewsIL/status/1392977300321447940

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



mlmp08 posted:

And the US doesn’t level a multi-story apartment because a bad dude did a thing there. That’s unacceptable targeting for us.

Hospitals on the other hand…

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




mlmp08 posted:

And the US doesn’t level a multi-story apartment because a bad dude did a thing there. That’s unacceptable targeting for us.

What if there's a wedding inside?

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Phanatic posted:

These two statements in such close proximity just made my ironometer explode.

The point is not “the US never does a bad”

The point is that even US deliberately opaque and often civilian-killing targeting policies would still prevent the US from targeting as brutally and deliberately as Israel.

When the US, even including the CIA, wouldn’t touch a target with a 10 foot pole, much less a JDAM, maybe your targeting policies are messed up.

After the IDF knocked down an entire apartment building, they posted a picture of it on their official twitter feed warning they’d do it again if they wanted to.

That is substantively different from the US going “oh gently caress oopsie” after blowing up a hospital. Even if both are very bad!

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 05:37 on May 14, 2021

Splode
Jun 18, 2013

~chill yourself~


I mean I don't think Israel could do much more to be cartoonishly evil at this point. This conflict is so incredibly and obviously one sided that it's impossible to take "both sides" arguments in good faith.

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

Splode posted:

I mean I don't think Israel could do much more to be cartoonishly evil at this point. This conflict is so incredibly and obviously one sided that it's impossible to take "both sides" arguments in good faith.

My favorite is labeling anything less than unwavering support of their behavior as antisemitism.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!




Mlmp is right and everyone needs to keep one obvious thing in mind here: destroying houses is not something that normally benefits the government responsible in any way. When it's Palestinian residential houses + 'that' dimension of Israeli politics, however...

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


If you're not willing to bomb an apartment block, anyone can set up weapons, headquarters, whatever else in apartment blocks and they will be immune to attack.

Given how many missiles Hamas was able to accumulate, I'm betting Egypt and Israel will tighten the blockade. I wouldn't be surprised even if Egypt expands the buffer zone in Rafah.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Splode posted:

I mean I don't think Israel could do much more to be cartoonishly evil at this point. This conflict is so incredibly and obviously one sided that it's impossible to take "both sides" arguments in good faith.

Disturbingly there’s plenty more to be done in the “cartoonishly evil” category.

Mortabis posted:

If you're not willing to bomb an apartment block, anyone can set up weapons, headquarters, whatever else in apartment blocks and they will be immune to attack.

Given how many missiles Hamas was able to accumulate, I'm betting Egypt and Israel will tighten the blockade. I wouldn't be surprised even if Egypt expands the buffer zone in Rafah.

Did you miss the part that the rockets are made from pipes and fertilizer.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Mortabis posted:

If you're not willing to bomb an apartment block, anyone can set up weapons, headquarters, whatever else in apartment blocks and they will be immune to attack.

Given how many missiles Hamas was able to accumulate, I'm betting Egypt and Israel will tighten the blockade. I wouldn't be surprised even if Egypt expands the buffer zone in Rafah.

Where do you think the good scale is where this is unethical? If a bad person holds meetinngs in a school, should the whole school be razed?

Is it ethical to level the entire apartment building where a military planner lives, as long as that planner is planning to shoot at you?

thatbastardken
Apr 23, 2010

strewth


Mortabis posted:

If you're not willing to bomb an apartment block, anyone can set up weapons, headquarters, whatever else in apartment blocks and they will be immune to attack.



comic of course overlooks the reality that Israel started the violence but is otherwise accurate

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


mlmp08 posted:

Where do you think the good scale is where this is unethical? If a bad person holds meetinngs in a school, should the whole school be razed?


If a school is being used as a CP, then it is entirely acceptable according to all laws of armed conflict to level that school. You can’t make your forces immune to attack simply by placing them in civilian structures.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Phanatic posted:

If a school is being used as a CP, then it is entirely acceptable according to all laws of armed conflict to level that school. You can’t make your forces immune to attack simply by placing them in civilian structures.

We're talking about where people live though. They're bombing apartment complexes because supposedly a "militant" may live there.

McNally
Sep 12, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?


Phanatic posted:

If a school is being used as a CP, then it is entirely acceptable according to all laws of armed conflict to level that school. You can’t make your forces immune to attack simply by placing them in civilian structures.

Why are you bringing up the law? The question was about ethics.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


hobbesmaster posted:

They're bombing apartment complexes because supposedly a "militant" may live there.

This is a somewhat slanted interpretation. I would agree that you can't bomb an apartment complex because a militant might live there.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Phanatic posted:

If a school is being used as a CP, then it is entirely acceptable according to all laws of armed conflict to level that school. You can’t make your forces immune to attack simply by placing them in civilian structures.

First, what McNally said, and second, nope. Just factually wrong. And on top of that, you changed the scenario!

If a bad guy holds meetings in a school, it would be ethical and legal to target that guy with the minimum force necessary. That is not leveling a whole building. It may be leveling a room within a larger structure. It may also be “follow him and kill him in the street.” It is not “level an entire civilian structure because of a meeting.”

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


mlmp08 posted:

Where do you think the good scale is where this is unethical? If a bad person holds meetinngs in a school, should the whole school be razed?

Is it ethical to level the entire apartment building where a military planner lives, as long as that planner is planning to shoot at you?

Look, I have no idea what the line is. I think the thought process in the IDF goes something like: Hamas shoots rockets -> we have to retaliate somehow -> what's the most Hamas-associated target we've identified -> bomb it. And I bet after a while, after enough rockets have been fired and enough targets have been hit, it starts to get tenuous. None of us have any clue how much of that building was used by Hamas or how essential it was to their operations.

hobbesmaster posted:

Did you miss the part that the rockets are made from pipes and fertilizer.

No, I didn't. I'm just guessing at what the Israelis and Egyptians will do. I won't pretend to have any clue what they should do.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

Mortabis posted:

Look, I have no idea what the line is.

We do agree on something.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


mlmp08 posted:

First, what McNally said, and second, nope

What do you mean, "nope"?


quote:

And on top of that, you changed the scenario!

I changed the scenario to one that is actually analogous to the real-world issue under discussion. They did not level the building because of a meeting, or because a militant might live there.

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



Keep in mind Israel is contacting the building ahead of time so everyone living there leaves, then destroying their homes. It's hard to argue this is a military target being neutralized and not a punitive measure.

Naramyth
Jan 22, 2009

Australia cares about cunts. Including this one.

The leveled a 160-odd unit apartment because some militant might be there but also gave them 30ish minutes to flee.

Killing the dude wasn’t the point. It was terrorism.

standard.deviant
May 16, 2012

Globally Indigent

Phanatic posted:

What do you mean, "nope"?
He pretty clearly meant “nope, leveling a school because someone used it to plan a military operation is not consistent with LOAC”

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


McNally posted:

Why are you bringing up the law? The question was about ethics.

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition:



e: not to single out McNally in particular, and I don't think Sherman's march to the sea was an unforgiveable atrocity. But if you've ever glorified Sherman's march then you're not really in a position to describe what Israel did with the apartment block as unjustified no matter whether you think it was a military target or part of a dehousing campaign. And that describes a very large number of posters in this thread.

Mortabis fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 14, 2021

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Mortabis posted:

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition:



e: not to single out McNally in particular, and I don't think Sherman's march to the sea was an unforgiveable atrocity. But if you've ever glorified Sherman's march then you're not really in a position to describe what Israel did with the apartment block as unjustified no matter whether you think it was a military target or part of a dehousing campaign. And that describes a very large number of posters in this thread.

You're well steeped in the particular brand of American Conservative outlook that would justify that kind of behavior (towards the Palestinians, in this case) no matter what.

Something, something about splinters and planks.

gohuskies
Oct 23, 2010

No Balls No Game


Mortabis posted:

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition:



e: not to single out McNally in particular, and I don't think Sherman's march to the sea was an unforgiveable atrocity. But if you've ever glorified Sherman's march then you're not really in a position to describe what Israel did with the apartment block as unjustified no matter whether you think it was a military target or part of a dehousing campaign. And that describes a very large number of posters in this thread.

I imagine if Sherman's march to the sea was happening today it might be discussed with a slightly different tone and perspective than when talking about something that happened 150 years ago.

PookBear
Nov 1, 2008


Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's going to die.


Mortabis posted:

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition:



e: not to single out McNally in particular, and I don't think Sherman's march to the sea was an unforgiveable atrocity. But if you've ever glorified Sherman's march then you're not really in a position to describe what Israel did with the apartment block as unjustified no matter whether you think it was a military target or part of a dehousing campaign. And that describes a very large number of posters in this thread.

using violence against a population that is engaged in proto total war and is fighting to uphold slavery is different from using violence against a population just because you despise their existance.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




In the context of total war, it is not only allowable but advisable to target an enemy's entire capacity for industry.

We can argue about how far that extends, but I don't think we can argue for a moment that it's a situation of total war between Israel and Palestine.

e; beaten by pookbear

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large hands
Jan 24, 2006


A few months old but it looks like spear 3 is going into production

With what we've seen with drones wreaking havoc on air defences, having tiny high subsonic cruise missiles with 100km+ range and mm wave targeting seems like a game changer.

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