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Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell.

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zoux
Apr 28, 2006



Mostly my issue with the veneration of Sherman is the Indian Wars. I mean Stalin killed a lot of nazis but I wouldn't get a gang tag of him.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010


Y'all aint gonna like this answer but, of course, it depends.

At some point a school being used to house, train, plan and generally be used as a base of operations is just no longer a school regardless of if the other normal school duties are still going on. It's a base of operations using children as a human shield, which is despicable and reprehensible. This should in no way be a situation where there is no counter and so therefor the baddies win, that would be absurd.

The 2nd hardest part is making the determination of what constitutes the appropriate level of response? The 1st hardest part is generating the trust that the people who made the decision properly and correctly judged the situation.

It's pretty clear that most of the world has very little faith that the IDF is acting honestly in this situation. It seems hard to warrant that a large apartment complex needs to be TAKEN OUT RIGHT NOW!!! but, you know with warning so that no one is hurt? Also, it's well with range of having an armored column visit it within a couple hours. It seems hard to reconcile that the building itself represented a threat of sufficient magnitude to recommend that action. Some key piece of equipment or infrastructure that will severely hamper the opponent is placed there and can't be moved quickly? They've stored all the lathes there or something?

Seems unlikely.

Murgos fucked around with this message at 16:32 on May 14, 2021

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


"Why does that Subaru break down every time you look at it, Travis", Punchy said. I nearly fell out of the jump seat in my Brat, aghast. "That thing a princess?" I coughed and gulped. "Hahahaha, nice one, Punchy", I said

Israel has probably the world's most effective and ruthless assassins. If they wanted to kill Hamas leadership without any civilian casualties they could easily insert an agent to shoot the guy on the street, or poison his coffee, or get a stripper to seduce him and choke him to death, or just use one of those razor blade hellfires while he's on the balcony. Dropping bombs on civilian buildings is terrorism.

Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 14, 2021

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

zoux posted:

Mostly my issue with the veneration of Sherman is the Indian Wars. I mean Stalin killed a lot of nazis but I wouldn't get a gang tag of him.

This is my Sherman take. Glad as hell he helped win the civil war. Not at all pumped he took those lessons and used it not just to win military engagements but to break Indian ways of life entirely.

Probably going to move on to posting about acquisitions and such again, but anyone who frames discussion of bombing out homes with saying the first step in the process was rocket fire is either ignorant enough to ignore or just using a disingenuous argument.

Years ago it was thought that Netanyahu going hard right would hurt Israel, but maybe we were wrong. Likewise, we thought the A-10 would go away and there were (not credible then) discussions of restarting the F-22.

Now we’re looking at F-22s gone before F-16s, A-10 extended to “sometime,” and hints that the F-22’s successor competitor(s) are doing some serious and advanced testing.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003



Naramyth posted:

The leveled a 160-odd unit apartment because some militant might be there but also gave them 30ish minutes to flee.

Killing the dude wasn’t the point. It was terrorism.
If you give people (incl your loving target) 30mn to gently caress off, that's just wanton destruction of civilian property with a side of war crime.

Naramyth
Jan 22, 2009

Australia cares about cunts. Including this one.

evil_bunnY posted:

If you give people (incl your loving target) 30mn to gently caress off, that's just wanton destruction of civilian property with a side of war crime.

Israel is the baddies, who knew

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

The Palestinian guy who gave that interview on CNN got forcibly evicted from his neighborhood. This isn't just "targeting the bad guys," they're systematically going after "troublemakers" of all sorts.

A pogrom where people get beaten and displaced is still a pogrom because most of the people being displaced have nowhere to go. It's like telling them they can only live on the side of a cliff with jagged rocks below, then pack so many people onto the cliff that it's impossible that most don't just fall from volume alone.

This is happening because Netanyahu had to prove he'd do ANYTHING to placate the ultra-orthodox population.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

BIG HEADLINE posted:

The Palestinian guy who gave that interview on CNN got forcibly evicted from his neighborhood. This isn't just "targeting the bad guys," they're systematically going after "troublemakers" of all sorts.

A pogrom where people get beaten and displaced is still a pogrom because most of the people being displaced have nowhere to go. It's like telling them they can only live on the side of a cliff with jagged rocks below, then pack so many people onto the cliff that it's impossible that most don't just fall from volume alone.

This is happening because Netanyahu had to prove he'd do ANYTHING to placate the ultra-orthodox population.

Don’t the ultra orthodox also refuse military service too on religious grounds?

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010


mlmp08 posted:

This is my Sherman take. Glad as hell he helped win the civil war. Not at all pumped he took those lessons and used it not just to win military engagements but to break Indian ways of life entirely.


I expect that Sherman had PTSD, or something like it, and probably shouldn't have been in command of the Army after the war. You can't really take someone whose brilliance is total war and then be like, 'here handle this situation in a reasonable and measured way."

I came across a paper a while back that was trying to assemble violent crime data across history. It made the argument that there was a MASSIVE spike after the ACW and really we've been on the downward slope of that ever since.

Which if you think about what behavior is shown in the typical western it starts to make a lot of sense that everyone had PTSD.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


"Why does that Subaru break down every time you look at it, Travis", Punchy said. I nearly fell out of the jump seat in my Brat, aghast. "That thing a princess?" I coughed and gulped. "Hahahaha, nice one, Punchy", I said

priznat posted:

Don’t the ultra orthodox also refuse military service too on religious grounds?

i haven't heard one way or another, but if there's one thing that fundamentalists are universally great at, it's hypocrisy

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


BIG HEADLINE posted:

This is happening because Netanyahu had to prove he'd do ANYTHING to placate the ultra-orthodox population.

Given previous posts in this thread talking about how Israel has been doing election after election (and appear to be headed for ANOTHER one) because they can't form a government, is this attributing a bit too much active cognizance to Netanyahu? I hate the guy, but "antagonizing/killing the Palestinians to keep a key demographic on my side" seems a bit too...thought through, for the current Israeli governance situation.

ought ten
Feb 5, 2004



priznat posted:

Don’t the ultra orthodox also refuse military service too on religious grounds?

As far as I know, yes, generally.

Infidelicious
Apr 9, 2013


Davin Valkri posted:

Given previous posts in this thread talking about how Israel has been doing election after election (and appear to be headed for ANOTHER one) because they can't form a government, is this attributing a bit too much active cognizance to Netanyahu? I hate the guy, but "antagonizing/killing the Palestinians to keep a key demographic on my side" seems a bit too...thought through, for the current Israeli governance situation.

I mean that's been his go to move for his entire time in office, though?

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



Murgos posted:

Which if you think about what behavior is shown in the typical western it starts to make a lot of sense that everyone had PTSD.

If you've seen The Searchers, you've seen a movie made from that perspective.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Communist Zombie posted:

But I thought it was still kinda obsolete, mainly in that its pretty slow so can take up to an hour to reach a ground attack target as opposed to less than half an hour or even minutes for other planes?

In anything approaching a near-peer fight, yes. Until/unless we roll the enemy air/IADS threat back a couple hundred miles, at least. But A-10s are cheap, fill a useful niche that has been a major focal point for the past two decades, and are cool as gently caress. And in the asymmetric fight, they can kick rear end (cheaply, as mentioned).

Mortabis posted:

Kind of an interesting juxtaposition:



e: not to single out McNally in particular, and I don't think Sherman's march to the sea was an unforgiveable atrocity. But if you've ever glorified Sherman's march then you're not really in a position to describe what Israel did with the apartment block as unjustified no matter whether you think it was a military target or part of a dehousing campaign. And that describes a very large number of posters in this thread.

Well this is probably the last thing I expected to see today.

Thomamelas
Mar 11, 2009


Murgos posted:

I expect that Sherman had PTSD, or something like it, and probably shouldn't have been in command of the Army after the war. You can't really take someone whose brilliance is total war and then be like, 'here handle this situation in a reasonable and measured way."

I came across a paper a while back that was trying to assemble violent crime data across history. It made the argument that there was a MASSIVE spike after the ACW and really we've been on the downward slope of that ever since.

Which if you think about what behavior is shown in the typical western it starts to make a lot of sense that everyone had PTSD.

So there is a bit of milhistory to this. The period where you tend to see a lot of PTSD like symtoms in American Westerns in the period right after WWII up into the late 50's. And that tends to mirror the experiences of returning Vets. It becomes kind of a way of discussing a fairly taboo theme. And the link with the ACW and WWII makes it easy to set up. A fair number of directors were also using it to process their own issues. Prior to the war, George Stevens is a proto-Mel Brooks. After the war his filmography is Shane, Giant, The Diary of Anne Frank among others. So I'd be careful at using at part of the genre to try to figure out what's actually happening in the US in the period.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



I'm watching the (very good) HBO Max show Warrior, and there's a character that lost a leg in the ACW. I just saw an episode that cold opens with a woman sharpening a bone saw in a huge canvas tent, and a very graphic and lenghty scene of this guy getting his leg amputated below the knee while he is held down, screaming in agony and terror. Then it cuts to him bolting upright in bed, soaked in sweat. It occurred to me that going through an non-anesthetized amputation would be a horrific experience that one might never get past - and there are a lot of people who got field amputations in the 19th century. And that's on top of all the other horrors of war, as well.

The idea of field amputations has hosed me up since I saw Dances with Wolves and learned such things happened.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Deyr fe,
deyja fraendr,
deyr sjalfr it sama,
ek veit einn,
at aldrei deyr:
domr um daudan hvern.


Mortabis posted:

No they make announcements, used to be phone calls but now I think they use a drone with some kind of loudspeaker.

Even worse. They used to give a phone call, then hit the building before people had time to leave it.

E: f, b

McNally
Sep 12, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?


zoux posted:

I'm watching the (very good) HBO Max show Warrior, and there's a character that lost a leg in the ACW. I just saw an episode that cold opens with a woman sharpening a bone saw in a huge canvas tent, and a very graphic and lenghty scene of this guy getting his leg amputated below the knee while he is held down, screaming in agony and terror. Then it cuts to him bolting upright in bed, soaked in sweat. It occurred to me that going through an non-anesthetized amputation would be a horrific experience that one might never get past - and there are a lot of people who got field amputations in the 19th century. And that's on top of all the other horrors of war, as well.

The idea of field amputations has hosed me up since I saw Dances with Wolves and learned such things happened.

Never look into what happened to Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain at Petersburg.

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005

Get into shit, let it out like diarrhea
Got burnt once, that was only gonorrhea




Thomamelas posted:

So there is a bit of milhistory to this. The period where you tend to see a lot of PTSD like symtoms in American Westerns in the period right after WWII up into the late 50's. And that tends to mirror the experiences of returning Vets. It becomes kind of a way of discussing a fairly taboo theme. And the link with the ACW and WWII makes it easy to set up. A fair number of directors were also using it to process their own issues. Prior to the war, George Stevens is a proto-Mel Brooks. After the war his filmography is Shane, Giant, The Diary of Anne Frank among others. So I'd be careful at using at part of the genre to try to figure out what's actually happening in the US in the period.

I feel like there has to be a whole field of literary analysis on this in relation to 50s sweat magazines

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

Nebakenezzer posted:

War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell.

The key insinuation here is the sooner it will be over. In Sherman's context, there was an clear, unified, and obtainable objective--the surrender of the successionists and reunification. If successful, it would be over. I don't know what Israel's war aims are, or the objectives of their operations. Maybe there's some hidden puzzle piece that slides into place and, when met, this all ends. I doubt it. All of us have suspicions as to the war aims, but my greatest suspicion is that they lack a unified clear and obtainable objective that terminates in peace. Sherman's sometimes-but-not-always-truism is really a statement for a specific context, and despite some similarities, this is likely a different context.

piL fucked around with this message at 21:19 on May 14, 2021

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




piL posted:

The key insinuation here is the sooner it will be over. In Sherman's context, there was an clear, unified, and obtainable objective--the surrender of the successionists and reunification. I don't know what Israel's war aims are, or the objectives of their operations. All of us have suspicions, but my greatest suspicion is thatthey lack a unified clear and obtainable objective. Sherman's sometimes-but-not-always-truism is really a statement for a specific context, and despite some similarities, this is likely a different context.

The issue with Israel's objective is that it's not one that can be achieved in the military context.

The objective of their current action is for their pm to stay their pm.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



piL posted:

The key insinuation here is the sooner it will be over. In Sherman's context, there was an clear, unified, and obtainable objective--the surrender of the successionists and reunification. If successful, it would be over. I don't know what Israel's war aims are, or the objectives of their operations. Maybe there's some hidden puzzle piece that slides into place and, when met, this all ends. I doubt it. All of us have suspicions as to the war aims, but my greatest suspicion is that they lack a unified clear and obtainable objective that terminates in peace. Sherman's sometimes-but-not-always-truism is really a statement for a specific context, and despite some similarities, this is likely a different context.

Honestly, I was just trying to sling a relevant Sherman quote or two because I don't have any substantial comment

Captain von Trapp
Jan 22, 2006

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it.

Sagebrush posted:

Israel has probably the world's most effective and ruthless assassins. If they wanted to kill Hamas leadership without any civilian casualties they could easily insert an agent to shoot the guy on the street, or poison his coffee, or get a stripper to seduce him and choke him to death, or just use one of those razor blade hellfires while he's on the balcony. Dropping bombs on civilian buildings is terrorism.

Not going to touch the politics, but this kind of thing is difficult at best for even extremely capable intelligence services. The fight has been going on for a long time. The other side has gotten very, very good for basically Darwinian reasons. Certainly the US has had extraordinary difficulties going after Osama, that ISIS psycho, and so on, and our resources dwarf the Israelis.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012


"Why does that Subaru break down every time you look at it, Travis", Punchy said. I nearly fell out of the jump seat in my Brat, aghast. "That thing a princess?" I coughed and gulped. "Hahahaha, nice one, Punchy", I said

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

Dreams, Amelia - dreams and false alarms

Soiled Meat

"Arson Locomotive" would make a pretty good username

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Paging Neb:

https://twitter.com/davidpugliese/status/1393345130417909760?s=21

Jesus CHRIST are there any top brass not getting rolled up in harassment (I assume) investigations

standard.deviant
May 16, 2012

Globally Indigent

priznat posted:

Jesus CHRIST are there any top brass not getting rolled up in harassment (I assume) investigations
Could be assault, there is some of that going around too

Thomamelas
Mar 11, 2009


shame on an IGA posted:

I feel like there has to be a whole field of literary analysis on this in relation to 50s sweat magazines

I'm sure there is. I've written a paper on latent PTSD stuff in film westerns. John Houston did a film about PTSD while part of the Signal Corps but it got buried till the 80's. One of the alt-history questions I have is what does American society look like if the US Military didn't try to hide the existence of PTSD and campaign to have anyone who spoke out about it labeled a coward or weakling.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)

Taco Defender

Nebakenezzer posted:

Honestly, I was just trying to sling a relevant Sherman quote or two because I don't have any substantial comment

I think thats always a good strategy and was more addressing the page full of comments then trying to make some sort of statement towards you, but the quote made a better quote than quoting the others.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



priznat posted:

Paging Neb:

https://twitter.com/davidpugliese/status/1393345130417909760?s=21

Jesus CHRIST are there any top brass not getting rolled up in harassment (I assume) investigations

loving hell

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

standard.deviant posted:

Could be assault, there is some of that going around too

Yeah for sure, kind of an either or both thing with these chucklefucks.

Seriously the entire CF is a teardown at this point. It doesn’t seem salvageable.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye



priznat posted:

Yeah for sure, kind of an either or both thing with these chucklefucks.

Seriously the entire CF is a teardown at this point. It doesn’t seem salvageable.

Oh my god Priznat, we love big brother

We're on the internet posting on how the CF should be ended

I agree with you totally, btw

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010


Thomamelas posted:

So I'd be careful at using at part of the genre to try to figure out what's actually happening in the US in the period.

That the post WWII directors took that history and interpreted it through the lens of their pain and experience doesn’t, in my opinion, corrupt that view of history.

I will happily give them credit for understanding that the subjects of their stories had similar experiences, transposed in time, to their own.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Oh my god Priznat, we love big brother

We're on the internet posting on how the CF should be ended

I agree with you totally, btw

I don’t see how else! It is just one thing after another with no noticeable improvements! It’s just really upsetting tbh.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

evil_bunnY posted:

If you give people (incl your loving target) 30mn to gently caress off, that's just wanton destruction of civilian property with a side of war crime.

In these stupid times, amused at the idea of a Hamas Intel team (that is what the IDF says was inside the apartment block) simply saying “Team, they got us. They found us and fair is fair. We shall not toss these laptops, phones, and handheld radios in backpacks and leave. We will not vacate with the civilians. The warning was for civilian residents, not us, the 372d Hamas Military Intelligence Company.”

*places hand on faux-granite countertop*

“She was a good Combat Apartment, lads. And now we sink with her into the rubble.”

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009

eyebrowse


Pillbug

McNally posted:

Never look into what happened to Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain at Petersburg.

I just looked into it and would like to confirm that it is a good idea not to do so

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



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Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


mlmp08 posted:

In these stupid times, amused at the idea of a Hamas Intel team (that is what the IDF says was inside the apartment block) simply saying “Team, they got us. They found us and fair is fair. We shall not toss these laptops, phones, and handheld radios in backpacks and leave. We will not vacate with the civilians. The warning was for civilian residents, not us, the 372d Hamas Military Intelligence Company.”

*places hand on faux-granite countertop*

“She was a good Combat Apartment, lads. And now we sink with her into the rubble.”

No idea about the truth of it, but I recall reading somewhere that the Italian Navy had to issue orders against captains unnecessarily going down with the ship (presumably this was in WW2).

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