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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



DandyLion posted:

Doesn't he shut down the Harkonnen shield during the assault (or am I conflating that with just the Lynch movie)?


edit: poo poo, that's Thufir I'm thinkin of. Disregard.

To leave Duncan in, my solution would always be to have him be captured instead of killed, and just have the unnamed Atreides guy Feyd kills in the arena later on actually be Duncan instead of some random soldier. So it's like, there's an actual point to Thufir living at all since it means the two were working behind the scenes to kinda sorta seem to get to this point where they could gently caress the Baron's plans over a bit (besides just Thufir hooking Feyd up with the lovely assassination attempt to keep them against each other). Make the arena fight more fair so it establishes Feyd as a significant threat since he's able to best Duncan instead of just him just popping up relatively out of nowhere at the very end, etc. things that would flow better in film form imo without having to really add anything new per se.

I'd even argue building up to that would be a decent climax between movies because then you'd have the first movie end with Paul solidifying himself on Dune, but the Baron has a lot of poo poo going on to maintain control of it and possibly take over the empire, you have a good amount of stuff resolved but also not resolved at that point. Also just realized you'd have two movies in a row ending with Feyd-Rautha knife fighting someone in true we don't want to try anything new Hollywood style.


Also makes more sense if they go into the sequels to explain how [technobabble] Duncan is back.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jan 20, 2020

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Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



As far as sequels, God-Emperor of Dune is genuinely unfilmable. Nobody could make that into a movie that works. It barely works as a novel.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Arglebargle III posted:

As far as sequels, God-Emperor of Dune is genuinely unfilmable. Nobody could make that into a movie that works. It barely works as a novel.

I genuinely think just from Exorcist III and The 9th Configuration that William Peter Blatty would direct an outstanding God-Emperor of Dune movie. R.I.P.

Harmonia
Jul 1, 2014


Years after reading the books I started to think that House Atreides with their water world is like the British empire with Paul being like Lawrence of Arabia. Harkonnen could stand for imperial Germaby or the Ottomans who were occupying Arabia.

Has Herbert talked about real life comparisons with the houses or characters?

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Harmonia posted:

Years after reading the books I started to think that House Atreides with their water world is like the British empire with Paul being like Lawrence of Arabia. Harkonnen could stand for imperial Germaby or the Ottomans who were occupying Arabia.

Has Herbert talked about real life comparisons with the houses or characters?

Something interesting about that is that the Atreides are Greek, not just looks-wise but the Atreides house claims to be descended from Atreus (father of Agamemnon), Atreides is just the plural in Greek of descendants of Atreus. And the little description of Caladan and how its folks look always made it sound Mediterranean as hell to me. But as far as real life comparisons IIRC he's basically said the obvious that the spice is oil and that the houses are various western powers, but not really more specific than that. I don't think you can necessarily go 1:1 with it.

Given all the poo poo that goes down between now and when Dune happens, you might wonder how any family could make such a claim, but then we get into the ancestral memory stuff later on and like, oh.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 20, 2020

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



It's definitely inspired by Arabia and oil but it's more of a pastiche than a direct allegory. For example a lot of Paul's visions and the sequel Dune Messiah are taken straight from the Omayyad conquest in the 7th or 8th century. It's more about what empire does to people and to society and less about any specific incarnation of it.

Like all great science fiction, Dune is still as relevant as it was when it was published. CHOAM maps better onto the WTO now than OPEC which was the obvious parallel when it was written. But we're still living in an era of empire, so all the ills Dune highlights are still around for everyone to see if they look. The way extractive industries immiserate the people on the periphery and funnel wealth to an elite at the imperial core, the way wealth and power accrues to an increasingly decadent clique of oligarchs, it's all still happening. Eventually the contradictions in the system lead to general disillusionment, and the only constituency for the status quo is a tiny elite who will be overthrown as soon as they lose their monopoly on organized violence. It's a very old story.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 20, 2020

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Neo Rasa posted:

Something interesting about that is that the Atreides are Greek, not just looks-wise but the Atreides house claims to be descended from Atreus (father of Agamemnon), Atreides is just the plural in Greek of descendants of Atreus. And the little description of Caladan and how its folks look always made it sound Mediterranean as hell to me. But as far as real life comparisons IIRC he's basically said the obvious that the spice is oil and that the houses are various western powers, but not really more specific than that. I don't think you can necessarily go 1:1 with it.

Given all the poo poo that goes down between now and when Dune happens, you might wonder how any family could make such a claim, but then we get into the ancestral memory stuff later on and like, oh.

The claim is just that, a claim. They're space nobles who claim a mythic ancestry to bolster their claim to nobility, like nobility has done throughout time. Prior to Paul, no Atreides could explore his ancestral memories, and neither Paul nor Leto II ever bother to confirm the claim because by then they have even better claims as the Kwisatz Haderach and his direct descendent. A lot of Dune is about the stories people make up and tell to seize and maintain power. Being descended from Atreus is just one of those stories and has about as much actual historical backing as the myths disseminated by the Missionaria Protectiva.

Arglebargle III posted:

It's definitely inspired by Arabia and oil but it's more of a pastiche than a direct allegory. For example a lot of Paul's visions and the sequel Dune Messiah are taken straight from the Omayyad conquest in the 7th or 8th century. It's more about what empire does to people and to society and less about any specific incarnation of it.

Like all great science fiction, Dune is still as relevant as it was when it was published. CHOAM maps better onto the WTO now than OPEC which was the obvious parallel when it was written. But we're still living in an era of empire, so all the ills Dune highlights are still around for everyone to see if they look. The way extractive industries immiserate the people on the periphery and funnel wealth to an elite at the imperial core, the way wealth and power accrues to an increasingly decadent clique of oligarchs, it's all still happening. Eventually the contradictions in the system lead to general disillusionment, and the only constituency for the status quo is a tiny elite who will be overthrown as soon as they lose their monopoly on organized violence. It's a very old story.

Apparently, it also draws heavily on Lesley Blanch's The Sabres of Paradise, which is about Imam Shamyl war against Russia in the Caucuses.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Time to read the novel again, been a few decades. Probably reread Dosadi, maybe Whipping Star.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


It's amazing how distinctive and recognizable the Lynch version is. You can see how the design follows in the 80s post-Star Wars traditions, but it's still very much its own thing. I've always thought of it as illustrations for the book, essentially, since there's so little deviation (as adaptations go*).

I remember exactly one shot from the Sci-Fi Channel version, and that was only because it looked so bad I was wracking my brain trying to figure out if the background was supposed to be real or a mural.

*Sonic weapons, Caucasian Fremen, and Paul using Kwisatz Haderach Powers to make it rain notwithstanding.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



PeterWeller posted:

The claim is just that, a claim. They're space nobles who claim a mythic ancestry to bolster their claim to nobility, like nobility has done throughout time. Prior to Paul, no Atreides could explore his ancestral memories, and neither Paul nor Leto II ever bother to confirm the claim because by then they have even better claims as the Kwisatz Haderach and his direct descendent. A lot of Dune is about the stories people make up and tell to seize and maintain power. Being descended from Atreus is just one of those stories and has about as much actual historical backing as the myths disseminated by the Missionaria Protectiva.


Apparently, it also draws heavily on Lesley Blanch's The Sabres of Paradise, which is about Imam Shamyl war against Russia in the Caucuses.

I stand corrected, this makes me think too though. IIRC in Dune Messiah Paul mentions one of his ancestors is Hitler?

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



He references Hitler as a point of comparison for mass death, that's it.

Clipperton
Dec 20, 2011


Grimey Drawer

Pretty sure that in either Messiah or Children an Atreides (I want to say Alia) is going through their ancestral memory and Agamemnon makes an appearance

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



I think I mentioned in the OP, as ludicrous as it is, please try to spoiler 55 year old plot points for those who may not have read the book. I would hate to have people come in here and be spoiled on a fairly twisty political narrative. Even if the beats of noble father figure dies suddenly, teenage boy discovers he is The Special One are not particularly original.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH





Looks like two full size ornithopter models on a backlot!

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Arglebargle III posted:

He references Hitler as a point of comparison for mass death, that's it.

And the takeaway from that comparison is that Paul is responsible for orders of magnitude more death and destruction.


Clipperton posted:

Pretty sure that in either Messiah or Children an Atreides (I want to say Alia) is going through their ancestral memory and Agamemnon makes an appearance

I don't recall that, but by that point, the novels have already introduced the idea that humanity's desire to mix its gene pools is the root cause of human conflict, and we're all descended from the terrible people who came out on top in those conflicts. So if Agamemnon really existed, many people in Dune's universe would be descended from him. And that's nothing special. It's like how some large percentage of people alive today can claim they descend from Genghis Khan.

It doesn't really matter whether or not it's true. The Atreides prior to Paul have no way of knowing. The only people who would know keep the whole ancestral memories thing secret from everyone, including members of their own order. And they're the same people who go around seeding myths to later exploit, so you can't trust them to confirm or deny. The point is house Atreides claims to be descended from mythic Greek hero Atreus because it gives them a claim to legitimacy. It makes it sound like there is more to them than just being one of the families that owns nukes.

PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jan 21, 2020

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



I updated the OP with some cast interviews. It's very minimal at the moment, but there seems to be a lot of excitement.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



Hemp Knight posted:


Think the Guild Navigator designs were also canonised in the Brian Herbert books. They had a character who trained as a Navigator, and it had him mutating the first time he used spice to fold space. They didnít go into much detail about how it mutated him, but the detail they did give tied up pretty well with the Lynch version.

Dune Messiah has that Guild Navigator character who was clearly the inspiration for the Lynch movie as he's described as floating around in a tank and looking less than human.

I said come in!
Jun 22, 2004




There is a TV show adaptation of Dune, right? Or when we talk about the series, are we referring to the TV adaptation of sequel, Children of Dune?

Roman Reigns
Aug 23, 2007



Tertius Oculum posted:

So hyped, been waiting for a proper DUNE production and Denis is perfect. I do fear that modern audiences might dodge it though. Blade Runner did well but I think it was because it was a Sequel to an established name.

I think it's going to be a success. Acclaimed director, all star cast, well known franchise across various media forms (books, movie, TV, video games...I think it's hard for anyone living in the past 20 years to not have heard of Dune in some form or another). It also feels like WB is investing a lot into it, and it's probably easier to market than Blade Runner 2049 as well.

And then there's the timing. It's coming out after the disastrous end of Game of Thrones and the Star Wars sequel movies. People are going to be starved for political intrigue in a fantasy world and a sci fi epic...and Dune offers both.

It's going to be great.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Also unlike GoT or Star Wars, Dune has an ending*

*Ignore the books pouring out from behind the curtain

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Soiled Meat

I said come in! posted:

There is a TV show adaptation of Dune, right? Or when we talk about the series, are we referring to the TV adaptation of sequel, Children of Dune?

SyFy did one 10-20 years ago. It was more faithful to the books than the David Lynch version but the low budget really showed.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011


Barudak posted:

Also unlike GoT or Star Wars, Dune has an ending*

*Ignore the books pouring out from behind the curtain

Iím still sad we never got the real Dune 7.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


I remember reading somewhere that Herbert actually really liked the way the Navigator was depicted in Lynchís movie, and it reflected how he portrayed chronic spice users in the latter novels. Any truth to that?

vivisectvnv
Aug 5, 2003


Barudak posted:

Also unlike GoT or Star Wars, Dune has an ending*

*Ignore the books pouring out from behind the curtain

well only two of those are actual novels and not just a cash grab

Zurui
Apr 20, 2005
Even now...

TOOT BOOT posted:

SyFy did one 10-20 years ago. It was more faithful to the books than the David Lynch version but the low budget really showed.

One of the things I really appreciated about the series was the nutso couture costumes. It really helped the characters feel relatable but alien at the same time.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Dune is maybe my favourite book, and Villeneuve is my favourite currently active director so yeah I'm trying to not be too hype about it, but I'm undeniably excited.

I'm re-reading the book right now, and every time I do I keep forgetting that the entire narrative is explicitly framed as a religious text dramatization of the rise of Paul Atreides, which is something no adaptation has really touched upon. I don't know how you'd do it, but marking the story as a piece of mythology from the get-go gives the story such a strong theatrical vibe which the Lynch adaptation honestly nailed. Maybe that wouldn't work so well for a modern adaptation, but I think Dune fundamentally needs some of that galactic scale, almost creation myth-like sensibility and I hope the movie doesn't disappoint in that area.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Hakkesshu posted:

Dune is maybe my favourite book, and Villeneuve is my favourite currently active director so yeah I'm trying to not be too hype about it, but I'm undeniably excited.

I'm re-reading the book right now, and every time I do I keep forgetting that the entire narrative is explicitly framed as a religious text dramatization of the rise of Paul Atreides, which is something no adaptation has really touched upon. I don't know how you'd do it, but marking the story as a piece of mythology from the get-go gives the story such a strong theatrical vibe which the Lynch adaptation honestly nailed. Maybe that wouldn't work so well for a modern adaptation, but I think Dune fundamentally needs some of that galactic scale, almost creation myth-like sensibility and I hope the movie doesn't disappoint in that area.

It's something they were definitely aware of and spoke about when creating the sci-fi mini-series, though how successful they were is up for debate.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Zurui posted:

One of the things I really appreciated about the series was the nutso couture costumes. It really helped the characters feel relatable but alien at the same time.

I really loved the alien look of the movie. It doesnít look like anything else, and itís one of its strengths. Iím hoping Villeneuve goes properly off the wall.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



The throne room in Lynch's Dune looks like if the Sangrada Familia was made of gold. The art design in it is so good!

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Exciting Lemon

Dune is one of those movies I can throw on any time of the day and enjoy. I love the look of it.

The whispered inner monologues are such a blunt method of adapting a book that lets you read any character's thoughts, but it gives the movie a unique quality. Maybe Villeneuve should have the characters speak their thoughts directly in the camera, like panto performers.

cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

It's just so good!


davidspackage posted:

Dune is one of those movies I can throw on any time of the day and enjoy. I love the look of it.

The whispered inner monologues are such a blunt method of adapting a book that lets you read any character's thoughts, but it gives the movie a unique quality. Maybe Villeneuve should have the characters speak their thoughts directly in the camera, like panto performers.

"Paul, the Hunter-Killer is behind you!"
"OH NO IT ISN'T"

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


Arglebargle III posted:

The throne room in Lynch's Dune looks like if the Sangrada Familia was made of gold. The art design in it is so good!

It took watching the bluray for me to notice, but Castle Caladan is made entirely of carved wood.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qJD19I5DK0

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



Blink and you'll miss it, but there's a couple guys who squeegee the floor behind the navigator. That always made me chuckle.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

I've never actually seen the Lynch Dune. Is it streaming anywhere?

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


MY GIMMICK IS POSTING GIBBERISH



iTunes, Amazon Prime and Youtube all have it for rent. I don't see it free anywhere.

Someone made a fan cut playlist on Youtube that removes a lot of Lynch's narrative additions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2Nfvc8WMw

LOL I forgot how Lynch's Dune has three prologues. A direct address to camera, a voice-over, and then a new scene at the beginning spelling out the Guild and the Emperor's motives.

I do like how Paul looks up the space wikipedia page for Arrakis and in the weather section it just says "See #Storms_on_Arrakis"

Crazy how Castle Caladan has all these recessed panels carved in wood and yet no paintings. Dune is a really dark movie. Especially for a movie about the desert. I wonder if Lynch intended it be so dark or if there was a problem with the film or cameras they decided to use.

Check out this scene where the sun gets a cameo and the characters react like it's super bright. But it's not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSfJUY9It2g#t=55s

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jan 22, 2020

Fish Noise
Jul 25, 2012

IT'S ME, BURROWS!

IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, BURROWS!


Arglebargle III posted:

Blink and you'll miss it, but there's a couple guys who squeegee the floor behind the navigator. That always made me chuckle.
I'm watching the fan cut now and one of them trips and nearly eats poo poo as they make their entrance too!

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


Re: the Lynch movie being overly dark - I'm watching it right now and they must have had some weird technical poo poo going on behind the scenes, a lot of shots have their exposure pushed really hard, a couple of the composite shots are really rough, and when Paul is first showing the fremen how to use the weirding module there's a loving massive light leak drenching the right side of the frame.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Fish Noise posted:

I'm watching the fan cut now and one of them trips and nearly eats poo poo as they make their entrance too!

The best part is how as they leave they all sort of turn around in unison as if they're all going to bow or otherwise acknowledge the emperor in some way but then they just turn around and continue to leave. It's such a great half-assed like, way to acknowledge the emperor while insulting him at the same time.

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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Strom Cuzewon posted:

Also I really want an extended sequence of Kynes' mad visions in the desert, arguing with his dead dad about ecology.

That's probably my favourite scene in the books and I want it so bad.

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