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Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






Why did the poison dart hit Leto in the back anyways? Was the dart just "stuck" in the shield until it slowed down enough to go through it and hit him in the back (even after he was shot in the back, spun around and still got hit in the back from the dart... somehow)?

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Baron von Eevl
Jan 24, 2005

WHITE NOISE
GENERATOR


Halloween Jack posted:

As for "slowing down but still pushing through," the problem is that a bullet would also do that.

I think the dart has a continuous drive propelling it, a bullet would strike, have its inertia transferred to the shield, and then drop.

Randalor posted:

Why did the poison dart hit Leto in the back anyways? Was the dart just "stuck" in the shield until it slowed down enough to go through it and hit him in the back (even after he was shot in the back, spun around and still got hit in the back from the dart... somehow)?

Yeah, the impression I got was that it was stuck in the shield slowly making its way through. Presumably the shield barrier isn't some 2-dimensional surface I don't know.

Ambihelical Hexnut
Aug 5, 2008


This version appears to be showing that projectile weapons designed to defeat shields exist, though whether they're drilling or slowing or whatever is not super clear. You can see Dunkin Donuts get hit by one+ of those projectiles and he's able to brush them off of his shield before they penetrate; presumably the fact that they can be easily defeated in that way is why the sword still rules combat. Leto tries to reach the one that got him at the center of his back but doesn't have the flexibility to push it off before it gets him.

I.G.
Oct 10, 2000


In the book Leto's shield is down when he's shot by the dartgun. I have no idea why they changed it so that his shield was active in the movie--it just confuses the audience and makes it seem like the shields don't work well.

FBS
Apr 27, 2015

The real fun of living wisely is that you get to be smug about it.



They do mention (but don't describe) "slow-pellet stunner"s in the book so it's not like the movie invented the idea from nothing. I'm a huge book nerd and I thought the dart idea from the movie was pretty cool

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




Also if there is an established fighting culture for these knives and shields, I imagine the whole trick of it would be slowing the swing down at the last possible moment in just the right way, so I don't think actual fights with these things would look how any of us could imagine, so having a slightly irregular swordfight is more than good for me. The Lynch version battles and knife fights were beyond poo poo, so I'm not sure what more anyone could have wanted.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The darts have little motors don't they? They make a whining sound, I figured they get stopped by the shield but the motor pushes it through slowly. They're not a lot of use I imagine because you can swat it away if you can reach it or whatever- Duncan evades one that's shot at him no problem, but the one that hits Leto is right in the middle of his back where he can't reach

david_a
Apr 24, 2010





Megamarm

Halloween Jack posted:

If the shield was programmed to reject anything that did penetrate it, you'd have problems opening doors or picking things up without turning your shield off first. Maybe you wouldn't be able to touch your shield belt to turn it off.

The real problem with the Lynch shields is that they're never used or mentioned again, so they don't matter outside of that scene.

As for "slowing down but still pushing through," the problem is that a bullet would also do that.

It would have been a lot simpler if they'd just established that anything moving as slow as a sword-swing can penetrate the shield. The only reason to cleave closer to the books is if you actually want to choreograph some kind of infighting, and they didn't.

They are used in the training segment in the beginning as well as during the Harkonnen attack. Duncan turns on his shield before jumping on a bunch of Sardaukar which seems to knock all of them down, and he's killed by some kind of projectile that slowly bores through the shield.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007




Soiled Meat

Oh, here's something I thought of at the time and forgot to bring up until now .When I was far enough in the movie that I could see just how special it was going to be, especially when I saw the guild ship orbiting Caladan and the transport landing in the dark, I was reminded of how much Bethesda was influenced by Jackson's LotR for the visuals of the Ayelid ruins and a lot of the weapons and armor in Oblivion. Relatedly, Bethesda has a scifi game, Starfield, releasing next year. It's got to be too far along for them to make major changes in the art assets now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Dune inspired DLC a year or two after release. This movie is so good looking, so strikingly unique, and also has enough broad appeal, that I think we've got to see some influence work it's way into games and shows over the next few years.

turboraton
Aug 27, 2011


Jesus gently caress what a great movie. Go treat yourself and watch it in a cinema.

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




Jack B Nimble posted:

Oh, here's something I thought of at the time and forgot to bring up until now .When I was far enough in the movie that I could see just how special it was going to be, especially when I saw the guild ship orbiting Caladan and the transport landing in the dark, I was reminded of how much Bethesda was influenced by Jackson's LotR for the visuals of the Ayelid ruins and a lot of the weapons and armor in Oblivion. Relatedly, Bethesda has a scifi game, Starfield, releasing next year. It's got to be too far along for them to make major changes in the art assets now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Dune inspired DLC a year or two after release. This movie is so good looking, so strikingly unique, and also has enough broad appeal, that I think we've got to see some influence work it's way into games and shows over the next few years.

It's wild to me that a Dune movie is good and also has solid mainstream appeal. Hopefully we'll get less disney type scifi movies soon. I don't want to get my hopes up but Neuromancer is my favorite book, and if someone can film Dune they might be able to pull that one off in some way too.

Automatic Slim
Jul 1, 2007



I.G. posted:

In the book Leto's shield is down when he's shot by the dartgun. I have no idea why they changed it so that his shield was active in the movie--it just confuses the audience and makes it seem like the shields don't work well.

Because everyone watching it is going say out loud, "Why didn't he have his shield up," and that would be an excellent question.
This guy has lived a lifetime of conditioned paranoia and assassination attempts. Having your shield around and on when it gets suspicious is the only way to go.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Yeah that moment works well in the movie, he hears a suspicious noise and puts his shield up, then finds Shadout uhh Bapes(?) and then while he's distracted he gets the dart. In the end, he's betrayed by the very capacity for empathy and compassion that made House Atreides beloved. There's no room for humanity in high-level galactic politics. That's why the Emperor likes the Harkonnens: "they're not human, they're brutal"

Baron von Eevl
Jan 24, 2005

WHITE NOISE
GENERATOR


You're never going to get a faithful Neuromancer film that also has anything close to broad appeal because Neuromancer is 1/3 quaintly outdated and 1/3 hilariously off-base as a prediction of the future.

You could get a good Neuromancer film that's faithful but it would have this cyberpunk retrofuture thing about it that would be a little too weird for audiences. You could also do a very loose adaptation that had more broad appeal by being more generic sci fi.

also Neuromancer isn't that great

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



I think Dune, even as a book, has a much more unique aesthetic than Neuromancer which would just look like Blade Runner 2049 and a hundred other Cyberpunk media properties. Space Islam is a completely untapped vein though.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Watching a video game review on youtube today, I was reminded that Neuromancer predicted that in the 2030s people would be impressed if you had three megabytes of RAM

Baron von Eevl
Jan 24, 2005

WHITE NOISE
GENERATOR


Yeah when you're talking about the far-off year of 2010 and you're running off to cyberspace (which looks like jet grind radio) it's gonna be tough-to-impossible to make that feel fresh and relevant. If you're a couple thousand years in the future (or 24,000 for dunc) you're gonna have a lot more leeway in terms of design.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwl5MBzTCRQ#t=24s

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




Baron von Eevl posted:

also Neuromancer isn't that great

Hey maybe I like it for reasons you don't understand? It's art? Grow up.

gohmak
Feb 12, 2004
cookies need love


AnEdgelord posted:

For the first one they only started firing the laser after the shield had visibly collapsed on the ornithopter, for the second I just assume that Saurdaukar are so hardcore that they are ok with getting obliterated as long as they kill their target in the process.

gohmak fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 28, 2021

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB





Try scratching the middle of your back. Now try getting assignation in the back out of nowhere and brush a dart off. Yueh knew what he was doing and itís such a great scene. Hopeless. Grim.

gently caress this movie rules.

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




There's so many little visual details that I love, I hope when people read the book they'll connect all these dots. I would say my only serious disappointment is that Gurney didn't get enough love, and his sparring scene wasn't as intense as I hoped it would be, but he could be in part 2 for a while at least.

e: also if they had Paul recite the litany at the start, people would be getting tattoos of that everywhere now so that's a big whiff.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



Vintersorg posted:

Try scratching the middle of your back.

trivially easy actually :colbert:

I.G.
Oct 10, 2000


I really liked the presentation of Paul's developing prescient ability. In particular when the reverend mother asks if he dreams things just as they happen, and his response is "not exactly". And then there are visions of a possible future where Jamis is his friend, a vision of his own death, etc. In adapting the script I think there would be a big temptation to simplify his ability to just "seeing the future". But this portrayel feels very close to to the novel, where at first Paul only sees bits and pieces of many possible futures along paths that diverge at critical points in time, which is a much more interesting idea.

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




I.G. posted:

I really liked the presentation of Paul's developing prescient ability. In particular when the reverend mother asks if he dreams things just as they happen, and his response is "not exactly". And then there are visions of a possible future where Jamis is his friend, a vision of his own death, etc. In adapting the script I think there would be a big temptation to simplify his ability to just "seeing the future". But this portrayel feels very close to to the novel, where at first Paul only sees bits and pieces of many possible futures along paths that diverge at critical points in time, which is a much more interesting idea.

I loved this bit because I forgot how exactly the Jamis fight went down, so I wasn't sure if that was something that was going to be changed heavily and I love how the fight was presented.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003

I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS


Soiled Meat

I.G. posted:

In the book Leto's shield is down when he's shot by the dartgun. I have no idea why they changed it so that his shield was active in the movie--it just confuses the audience and makes it seem like the shields don't work well.

Itís to let the audience know that shield boring technology exists, so that we instantly understand whatís going on with the drill bullet hitting Duncan and the drill bombs hitting the Atreides frigates. It was a good way to introduce new vocabulary to the visual language

Also itís way more cinematic than a dart gun hitting an i shielded guy

Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Oct 28, 2021

Al Cu Ad Solte
Nov 30, 2005
Searching for
a righteous cause


Baron von Eevl posted:

also Neuromancer isn't that great

Chiming in to say how utterly wrong and incorrect and bad this statement is.

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005


Buglord

I.G. posted:

In the book Leto's shield is down when he's shot by the dartgun. I have no idea why they changed it so that his shield was active in the movie--it just confuses the audience and makes it seem like the shields don't work well.

I feel like that scene was like the only scene in the whole movie the shields actually mattered. Every fight scene would play out 99% identical if they didn't have them, that one was the only one that did something unique and visually cool. That will be the only actual shield thing anyone actually remembers. They changed it because that and the scene were bombs did a little retrorocket slow before hitting were the only two scenes in the movie that animating shields in actually made the movie better.

Hulk Krogan
Mar 25, 2005





I dunno. The fight choreography was overall sort of generic, but I did feel like they made a point of having most of the killing blows not be regular slashes or stabs, at least in that Duncan vs the Sardaukar hallway scene. He kept grabbing guys and drawing the blade across their throat or whatever, after opening them up with regular-speed stuff.

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






Why did the bombs need to slow down anyways? Shouldn't they have stopped when they hit the shield and then fallen through from the reduced speed anyways? They wouldn't even need special technology for it to go off after it fell through the shield, just something to register "The bomb has suddenly stopped/slowed" and a timer to trigger the detonator a few minutes later. I AM willing to accept "anti-shield technology exists, just not at a scale small enough for humans to wield".

Kurzon
May 10, 2013


I don't know if it has been brought up in this thread already, but a lot of Warhammer 40,000 fans on various Reddit boards are saying that Dune is totally WH40K. I think the similarities are superficial. WH40K cribbed a few things from Dune but not the core themes. Sure, WH40K has navigators and a ban on AI, but they don't tie in to the core themes of WH40K the way they do in Dune. In Dune, FTL travel is impossible without the navigators, and the navigators need the spice, which is why everyone is fighting over the one source of spice in the Universe. Whereas navigators in WH40K are just there, you could excise navigators from WH40K without destroying the setting. Similarly, in Dune, the ban on AI is the reason why humans must use navigators in the first place (and also Mentats). The ban on AI didn't even appear in WH40K until the second edition, it is not key to the setting.

Mike the TV
Jan 14, 2008

Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine



Pillbug

I.G. posted:

I really liked the presentation of Paul's developing prescient ability. In particular when the reverend mother asks if he dreams things just as they happen, and his response is "not exactly". And then there are visions of a possible future where Jamis is his friend, a vision of his own death, etc. In adapting the script I think there would be a big temptation to simplify his ability to just "seeing the future". But this portrayel feels very close to to the novel, where at first Paul only sees bits and pieces of many possible futures along paths that diverge at critical points in time, which is a much more interesting idea.

My opinion - Don't take his dreams literally. He's not seeing a possible future, he's seeing the actual future, but his interpretation of it. Him getting killed in his dreams is the old 'Paul Atreidis' dying as he joins the Fremen and stays on Arrakis.

FLIPADELPHIA
Apr 27, 2007




Grimey Drawer

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

I feel like that scene was like the only scene in the whole movie the shields actually mattered. Every fight scene would play out 99% identical if they didn't have them, that one was the only one that did something unique and visually cool. That will be the only actual shield thing anyone actually remembers. They changed it because that and the scene were bombs did a little retrorocket slow before hitting were the only two scenes in the movie that animating shields in actually made the movie better.

lol you think without shields, the soldiers of the far distant future would use knives?

Mike the TV posted:

My opinion - Don't take his dreams literally. He's not seeing a possible future, he's seeing the actual future, but his interpretation of it. Him getting killed in his dreams is the old 'Paul Atreidis' dying as he joins the Fremen and stays on Arrakis.

This doesn't really work in the context of the book, in which Paul sees numerous hypothetical futures and actively works to bring about some while avoiding others. He can basically see into the multiverse and his real power is in slowly being able to gain enough knowledge of how determinism works in order to purposefully change outcomes that suit his preferences.

FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Oct 28, 2021

Police_monitoring
Oct 11, 2021

by sebmojo


40k got almost everything from 2000AD (mostly from nemesis: the warlock) but Dune is a major influence of practically all space opera after it so itís definitely an ingredient.

Hashtag Banterzone
Dec 8, 2005


Lifetime Winner of the willkill4food Honorary Bad Posting Award in PWM

I wish Villanueve had kept the conversation about the bull's head between Shadout Mapes and Jessica. I'll put it in spoilers for anyone who hasn't read the book (even though it doesn't really spoil anything)

Mapes said: "What'll you be wanting me to do first, my Lady?"
Instinct warned Jessica to match that casual tone. She said: "The painting of the Old Duke over there, it must be hung on one side of the dining hall. The bull's head must go on the wall opposite the painting."
Mapes crossed to the bull's head. "What a great beast it must have been to carry such a head," she said. She stooped. "I'll have to be cleaning this first, won't I, my Lady?"
"No."
"But there's dirt caked on its horns."
"That's not dirt, Mapes. That's the blood of our Duke's father. Those horns were sprayed with a transparent fixative within hours after this beast killed the Old Duke."

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




40k wouldn't be recognizable, if it existed at all, without Dune. Elements like being set 40k years in the future, a precognitive God-Emperor, multiple guilds of mutants and psychics and technologists that the empire depends on, the idea that the future would be feudal rather than cosmopolitan, religion dominating everything, "death worlds" which make the best place for ordinary and superhuman soldiers to be recruited. Basically the only defining element of 40k that isn't directly inspired by Dune is the Law vs Chaos stuff, which is from Michael Moorcock.

Well, that and Orks, which are from living in England near football fans.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Oct 28, 2021

Randalor
Sep 4, 2011






Kurzon posted:

I don't know if it has been brought up in this thread already, but a lot of Warhammer 40,000 fans on various Reddit boards are saying that Dune is totally WH40K. I think the similarities are superficial. WH40K cribbed a few things from Dune but not the core themes. Sure, WH40K has navigators and a ban on AI, but they don't tie in to the core themes of WH40K the way they do in Dune. In Dune, FTL travel is impossible without the navigators, and the navigators need the spice, which is why everyone is fighting over the one source of spice in the Universe. Whereas navigators in WH40K are just there, you could excise navigators from WH40K without destroying the setting. Similarly, in Dune, the ban on AI is the reason why humans must use navigators in the first place (and also Mentats). The ban on AI didn't even appear in WH40K until the second edition, it is not key to the setting.

Not sure if this is a joke post, so all I'll say is that "yes, Warhammer 40k cribbed a lot from Dune" and that several of your points about 40k are either wrong, or could also apply in the reverse ("you could just excise Navigators from Dune while keeping all of the other properties of Spice and still have it be the most valuable property in the universe"). The one on AIs, though, I think was meant as an example about how much society had fallen back into ignorance of technology and/or how the machine cult is breaking the spirit of the laws while abiding by the word of law("This machine does not have an artificial intelligence, it has a machine spirit that guides its actions and informs us of its needs and desires").

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.





Alchenar posted:

Where is my Dark Souls-esque video game tie in?

This would work where it cuts back to Paul frowning, and your "death" was just a possible future he didn't like.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Also the Dark Heresy line of TTRPGs don't have great mechanics overall, but you can play "spot the thing in Dune this character class represents" non-stop. The Radical's Handbook if you want the Twisted Mentat (Schola) background package, for example.

Adepts (one of the main classes) are basically just mentats in the first place.

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Mike the TV
Jan 14, 2008

Ninety-nine ninety-nine ninety-nine



Pillbug

The Spider-Thing really grossed me out when I saw that it was probably a person. :gonk:

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