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The oasis room never made sense to me, because its portrayed as a massive consumer of water. Except its a completely sealed, self-contained eco-system. It contains a vast quantity of water, but it's not going to actually use it up. It's just a flashy version of those Fremen basins.
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Dec 1, 2021 13:30
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Strom Cuzewon posted:The oasis room never made sense to me, because its portrayed as a massive consumer of water. Except its a completely sealed, self-contained eco-system. It contains a vast quantity of water, but it's not going to actually use it up. It's just a flashy version of those Fremen basins. there's a four hour version of dunc that has all that stuff and it's amazing, but I think all the cuts are p well judged (apart from not mentioning shield/laser interaction, and maybe that paul was a mentat)
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Dec 1, 2021 13:36
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LOL OK
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Dec 1, 2021 13:47
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Freedom Trails posted:why did they drop the lush oasis room for some dumb date palms? subtext is for cowards
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Dec 1, 2021 14:18
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I find complaints about the desert heat being unrealistic funny because they literally shot the desert scenes in the Arabian desert.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:48
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sebmojo posted:there's a four hour version of dunc that has all that stuff and it's amazing, but I think all the cuts are p well judged (apart from not mentioning shield/laser interaction, and maybe that paul was a mentat) I'm pretty happy with both those cuts - the shield/laser interaction is a weirdly specific bit of technobabble that necessitates a whole load of other questions (why they aren't used for suicide attacks, why some people are reckless enough to use them to clear rubble, why they aren't nevertheless used to shoot down un-shielded Fremen craft). It's a distraction from the real meat of the story. The Mentat stuff, eh. I like Mentats, they're a cool idea. And I like the vague philosophical clash that gets set up later on with Mentat's systemic abstraction vs BGs socio-political form of analysis. But I don't know if they're essential to Paul's journey.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:13
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The laser vs knife discussion still drives me insane because it really, really doesn't need an explanation. From reading the book as a kid, I completely forgot the explosive interaction, my take-home-message from it and now the movie was very simple: shields prevent lasers from being used so you have to use something slow and controlled, which can only be a knife used by your own hand, or a clumsy drone that the defender can easily swat away. It makes sense both in a "lol technology has gotten so advanced that they have to paradoxically use brute force to counter it" way and as a metaphor for the whole archaic-rear end system.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:27
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I dont think the mentat training is that important since they also cut the times he used it before the invasion, like figuring out how to take bribes from smugglers and use it as a tax write off.
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Dec 1, 2021 16:27
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I think Thufir actually did that, and they gave those lines to Paul in the miniseries to put across that he's precocious without voiceovers and exposition. (It also offsets the way Alec Newman played the character as petulant.)
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Dec 1, 2021 16:37
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Famethrowa posted:subtext is for cowards Huh. I guess Villanueve is Herbert now? You’d have a point if the movie wasn’t drawn from a book in which the author handles this particular “subtext” in his own way. But it wouldn’t have given us the chance to see Paul prancing around out in the “dangerous” heat of the day in full dress, not breaking a sweat. Or was that the subtext? It ain’t really all that hot?
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Dec 1, 2021 17:12
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Freedom Trails posted:why did they drop the lush oasis room for some dumb date palms? Because both were in the books, and they chose to show the one that let them present more information about the Fremen?
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Dec 1, 2021 17:15
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At the beginning of the movie Paul faced down the gom jabbar test, enduring agony beyond the capacity of the rational mind, but you're pointing triumphantly and saying HOLD IT like Phoenix Wright because he was able to stand outside in hot weather for two minutes without crying and saying "I'm so hooot I'm so weeeet"
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Dec 1, 2021 17:29
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm pretty happy with both those cuts - the shield/laser interaction is a weirdly specific bit of technobabble that necessitates a whole load of other questions (why they aren't used for suicide attacks, why some people are reckless enough to use them to clear rubble, why they aren't nevertheless used to shoot down un-shielded Fremen craft). It's a distraction from the real meat of the story. It doesn't though, a major factor in dune is everyone having very strong cultural opinions on things, trained from birth and enforced with violence. No one likes computers, everyone in the universe has agreed to this. Nuclear bombs are seen as a sin beyond all reason and no one would use one. etc. everyone knows you simply DO NOT use lasguns in a way that might explode. It's simply wrong, everyone knows that. Big parts of the story are based on these absolutes then one guy going "yeah, but what if I didn't do that!" and everyone being super shocked as they run circles around everyone with a fixed view of how things are and have to be.
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Dec 1, 2021 17:36
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I mean, people refrain from setting off nuclear explosions because it's the worst crime in their legal system and because the guys holding the lasguns don't want to get vaporized.
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Dec 1, 2021 17:42
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Neither Paul nor Jessica care too much that Duncan uses a shield trap to make some Sardaukar blow themselves up in the book; they do ask if he considered the residue which looks like someone might have used atomics, but Duncan easily counters that by pointing out that the people currently using heavy weapons are not the Atreides + neither the Baron nor the Emperor want any details coming out about what's actually going on on Arrakis, so they won't raise a peep that might cause an investigation.
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Dec 1, 2021 17:59
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TheMadMilkman posted:Because both were in the books, and they chose to show the one that let them present more information about the Fremen? lol, they're completey different beasts. in the book, Jessica realizes the date palms are a metaphor for Arrakis and the freman and hope for the planet. Paul isn't in the scene. But in the movie he's out having a nice stroll in 2-hours-and-your-dead sun wondering why they're "wasting so much water on palm trees." We're told "they're sacred" (and not much else) and holy cow it's a lame scene when it's handled quite well in the book. the oasis is a guilty indulgence to be kept secret from the fremen and represents the outworlder ethos
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Dec 1, 2021 18:09
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I didn't like the palm tree scene but now I am questioning the book. Why would the fremen think "what a waste of water" if they dreamed of a green arrakis? Also I agree that the desert should've been more oppressive. I don't care if it's accurate or not, I wanted sweat and parched lips
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Dec 1, 2021 18:25
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Freedom Trails posted:Huh. I guess Villanueve is Herbert now? You’d have a point if the movie wasn’t drawn from a book in which the author handles this particular “subtext” in his own way. But it wouldn’t have given us the chance to see Paul prancing around out in the “dangerous” heat of the day in full dress, not breaking a sweat. Or was that the subtext? It ain’t really all that hot? the subtext is colonialism. they could improve the lives of the people by investing in terraforming as shown later in the abandoned facility but instead they instilled a religious belief that an ostentatious foreign datepalm is holy enough to sacrifice natives too it. I don't get why you are talking about sweaty Paul or Herbert considering this was a cinematic choice to streamline a book. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 1, 2021 |
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Dec 1, 2021 18:36
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there's no subtext at all involved. the book explicity states the palms are arrakis in that, like the planet, they're a hidden store of water and Herbert describes the fremen as not being salty about them, but revering them in the hope "a date might fall their way." The movie makes the scene about Paul and "wasting water" which totally misses the point -- the actual scene (which features Jessica) is about the freman's hope for and belief in their own planet and has nothing to do with any offworlders or Paul. When Arrakis is described in super-deadly terms, but no one acts like it, the whole concept of "water sacrifice" and stillsuit stuff becomes meaningless windowdressing. Are we supposed to be "wowed" by the stored water at the end of the movie now? why? No one ever acts as if they're in any environmental danger! AARP LARPer fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Dec 1, 2021 |
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Dec 1, 2021 18:48
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Freedom Trails posted:there's no subtext at all involved. the book explicity states the palms are arrakis in that, like the planet, they're a hidden store of water and Herbert describes the fremen as not being salty about them, but revering them in the hope "a date might fall their way."
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Dec 1, 2021 18:55
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but this is about the movie and the creative choices they made to represent the same thing. you could argue that the book made the point better but it sounds like Paul just didn't say "wow I'm thirsty!!!" enough for you which  I guess
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Dec 1, 2021 18:57
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Freedom Trails posted:lol, they're completey different beasts. Also, the Fremen quite obviously know about the garden because Mapes calls it The Weirding Room - and one of the things that makes the Fremen respect Atreides is their actions and treatment of water (both stopping the waterseller from making massive profits off the leavings of the nobles, a very Harkonnen trait), and making it clear that they're keeping the garden in trust for the people of Arrakis. Also, I don't know how I hadn't found this until now, but apparently there are scripts for both David Lynch's Dune and Jodorowsky's Dune.
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Dec 1, 2021 18:58
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:In the book, there's no palms.
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Dec 1, 2021 19:01
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wtf. The Palm scene is with Jessica viewing them from the residence and is about the Fremen and Dune and the hope they have for their own world, so no, it's not about colonization The Oasis room is about colonization though and is the "dirty secret" to be hidden from the oppressed (tho everyone knows about it). The movie hosed up the potentcy of each scene, both by conflating the two events, then turning the metaphor of the palms into something dumb about Paul and wasting water (it has nothing to do with either), while at the same time weakening the idea that Arrakis is a dangerous place to be out and about without a stillsuit. It's a ham-handed scene and it's hilarious the pretzels being tied here to defend the choice. AARP LARPer fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Dec 1, 2021 |
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Dec 1, 2021 19:13
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Paul is the Duke's son. The ruling family of Arrakis is not worrying about how expensive their lifestyle is, even water usage.
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Dec 1, 2021 19:17
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Freedom Trails posted:But in the movie he's out having a nice stroll in 2-hours-and-your-dead sun wondering why they're "wasting so much water on palm trees." As in the book, the city is in a protected polar region, not in the 2-hours-and-you-are-dead open desert to the south.
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Dec 1, 2021 19:54
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Paolomania posted:As in the book, the city is in a protected polar region, not in the 2-hours-and-you-are-dead open desert to the south. and even if that wasn't obvious (which, I don't think it was well communicated), it was clear at the very least that Paul was an arrogant rich fool out surveying his demesne and not listening to the knowledgeable locals. the only people shown to have an intuitive grasp of what life is like and what sacrifices make their life possible are through the interactions his mother and Duncan Idaho have with the fremen servant and fremen leaders respectively. the palm scene is a small scene that helps him and the audience start to understand what desert life is really like.
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Dec 1, 2021 20:17
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Paolomania posted:As in the book, the city is in a protected polar region, not in the 2-hours-and-you-are-dead open desert to the south.
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Dec 1, 2021 20:37
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lol at using the book to defend a scene that isn't in the book
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Dec 1, 2021 20:42
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I guess you're probably already aware, but launching a one man attack on a generally liked film isn't usually successful in CD unless you are SMG. I think it was far from a perfect movie but lol if your suggestions involve making it even longer and/or making it even more slavishly faithful to the book
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Dec 1, 2021 20:55
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some of the posting here is giving me cielago depression
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Dec 1, 2021 21:00
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Steve Yun posted:HONK
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Dec 1, 2021 21:02
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Heat is a concern on Arrakis but it isn't the main one- the main concern is just, there's not very much water. That's the defining feature of a desert anyway, they can be hot or cold or temperate (though they rarely are since the lack of moisture leads to extremes), but they're always dry. Like I don't think making everyone sweat more would have conveyed the setting better, the aesthetic the filmmakers are going for is focused more on the bleached lifelessness of the place in contrast to Caladan where there's moisture everywhere.
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Dec 1, 2021 21:03
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Tag urself I'm 'Pasty Mesa'
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Dec 1, 2021 21:25
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Freedom Trails posted:lol at using the book to defend a scene that isn't in the book "Defend"? What, are you in a fight against the movie?
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Dec 1, 2021 21:30
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You liked D U N C? Well can you defend every single scene in it in a trial by post?
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Dec 1, 2021 21:34
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2house2fly posted:"Defend"? What, are you in a fight against the movie? they are a holy warrior, a fedaykin
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Dec 1, 2021 21:35
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When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the people who liked the date palms scene are all in confederacy against him.
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Dec 1, 2021 21:37
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I'm gonna be honest I was a little surprised it was Paul in that scene because I thought they were gonna continue with Jessica and Mapes to do the water leavings bit but the stuff he talks about with the guy watering the palms made sense. That and we got enough of that "the Harkonnens were assholes, we aren't" from other character interactions. Even Paul's statement of "should we remove the palms so that water can be given to 100 people instead?" communicated that and the steward's response communicated the significance of the palms. Also, Paul wasn't outside for very long wtf is this stupidity with him not sweating his balls off for a 3 minute scene?
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Dec 1, 2021 21:47
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2house2fly posted:When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the people who liked the date palms scene are all in confederacy against him. I will say, hindsight is 20/20 but it might have been interesting to have the garden also just inside from there. Juxtaposing the spartan palm area and how much water they have to spend to keep them going with how the garden seems like it takes up way more water superficially, but uses up way less since it's a little self-contained ecosystem. But it didn't really hurt it to me to just have the spartan palm area, it's a short scene and they get a lot across about the world/themes of the story in it in a really short amount of time, good stuff.
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Dec 1, 2021 21:50
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