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moths
Aug 25, 2004







Checkmate, nerds - Can't have a hero's journey without a hero.

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u brexit ukip it
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

They can still film Dune Part 2 and Dune Messiah back to back!

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


if your body has bones that means you're a skeleton

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Frank Herbert broke Joseph Campbell's back and George Lucas brought him back to life as a muppet.

Same. Thing.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

u brexit ukip it posted:

They can still film Dune Part 2 and Dune Messiah back to back!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtqIysDMw6A

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Arglebargle III posted:

if your body has bones that means you're a skeleton

Taking your bodily existence as a whole, most people are skeletons far longer than they are anything else. So, generally speaking...

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


Men are meat.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


TheOmegaWalrus posted:

Men are meat.

Women are from vegans.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



TheOmegaWalrus posted:

Men are meat.

Men are Vampires, Women are Wampires.

G-III
Mar 4, 2001



I was really luke warm on this new movie until I learned Charlotte Rampling is playing Gaius Helen Mohiam. Hell yeah I'm ready to get Rampled.

G-III fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Feb 17, 2021

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


so i got into an argument with someone who was really nasty to me about this topic (possibly provoked by an urge to defend Frank Herbert's honor, because it was tangentially related to whether he was homophobic or not), but they raised an interesting point and I thought I'd run it by people who aren't quite so deeply invested

Namely: do you think Paul and Leto II's understanding of the Golden Path is actually accurate? That is, were Leto's 3500 years of tyranny followed by his suicide at Siona's hands actually necessary for humanity to survive, and more broadly, are his insights into human behavior, history, and culture supposed to be diegetically true or just the ramblings of an insane tyrant?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Yes, and yes.

Good talk.

I mean if you wanted to ask "are they true, period, outside the novel" there is a debate, but in the text? No, it's exactly what its sold as. I don't even know how you'd begin to make an argument that it isn't, the text certainly doesn't give you anything to work with. I mean like nothing, I don't even know how you try to devil's advocate it.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

so i got into an argument with someone who was really nasty to me about this topic (possibly provoked by an urge to defend Frank Herbert's honor, because it was tangentially related to whether he was homophobic or not), but they raised an interesting point and I thought I'd run it by people who aren't quite so deeply invested

Namely: do you think Paul and Leto II's understanding of the Golden Path is actually accurate? That is, were Leto's 3500 years of tyranny followed by his suicide at Siona's hands actually necessary for humanity to survive, and more broadly, are his insights into human behavior, history, and culture supposed to be diegetically true or just the ramblings of an insane tyrant?

Iím not sure what the answer is, but Iím curious about how this became such a heated topic. Asking whether Leto II is a reliable narrator seems like a great question?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Jewmanji posted:

Iím not sure what the answer is, but Iím curious about how this became such a heated topic. Asking whether Leto II is a reliable narrator seems like a great question?

A different, third person asked why Frank Herbert had a reputation for being homophobic (besides writing the Baron Harkonnen, who is conceivably just a monster who happens to be gay), I replied with a passage from God-Emperor where Leto says that gay men are all inherently sadistic, and someone got really upset that I implied Leto's beliefs might reflect Frank Herbert's. Then they kind of drifted from there to "nothing at all that Leto says should be taken seriously, the whole novel is a satire of how fascism is unsustainable" and from there to the question I just posed.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



The Baron is basically Caligula in that regard, but yeah, there's not really a line dividing his homosexuality from his pedophilia, or a line dividing his sadism from his sexuality generally...so, it's not looking good.

In general, Dune has a pretty clear moral argument about hedonism or decadence which you could logically apply to his thoughts on sexuality. It seems like sexuality is only good when it's connected to lineage or reproduction, when it has some utility beyond the personal. Characters who actually get off on things or enjoy bodily experience are typically bad guys, but anyone please jump in with a counterexample if you can think of one. Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness.


"Is Leto right?" seems like a fair semantic debate, but yeah not really one Frank Herbert intended people to have, I'm sure. But who cares? Have the debate. Herbert was, in fact, a human author and not an omniscient worm-king with esoteric knowledge.

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



imo, herbert's take on homosexuality is better reflected by the stuff between Idaho and moneo where Idaho is like 'homosexuals make me uncomfortable' and moneo tells him to deal with it because the world's different now

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Xealot posted:

Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness.


The Fremen have literal, ritualistic orgies.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I didn't remember that. Did the orgies get gay?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Xealot posted:

"Is Leto right?" seems like a fair semantic debate, but yeah not really one Frank Herbert intended people to have, I'm sure. But who cares? Have the debate. Herbert was, in fact, a human author and not an omniscient worm-king with esoteric knowledge.

Leto is also, explicitly, a foil for humanity at large. Vast swaths of what he says and does aren't intended to be correct or workable. Much of it is intended to be inflammatory, or to teach a lesson. So trying to figure out what he really believes and cares about at any given moment is....challenging. How do you truly narrow down the beliefs of someone playing a role if they never break character?

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


Xealot posted:

I didn't remember that. Did the orgies get gay?

When everyone's in a stillsuit- what does it matter?

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


We know Leto was purposely manipulating society to his own ends, so you can't say for certain that he was speaking truthfully. However, by the events of the book he's already mostly achieved what he had set out to do and has turned his attention more towards his legacy. I think it's fair to think he believed what he said.

(Also, there isn't really any story if he doesn't.)

This isn't to say his philosophy should be understood as flawless or absolute. His golden path was the golden path de facto because he chose it ó there weren't any other psychic gods for him to discuss it with.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


Horizon Burning posted:

imo, herbert's take on homosexuality is better reflected by the stuff between Idaho and moneo where Idaho is like 'homosexuals make me uncomfortable' and moneo tells him to deal with it because the world's different now

Yeah. I think Herbert may have not understood homosexuality (as a heterosexual) but he made it clear with that exchange that it's a natural thing. Idaho's the one with the bug up his rear end.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



I always thought it was sort of hilariously appropriate for David Lynch to be the first person to adapt Dune, at least in part because (similar to Herbert) Lynch also happens to be a heterosexual man who is largely totally ignorant and unaware of homosexuality and its trappings, and as such tends to deal with it insensitively (if it all). Frank Booth from Blue Velvet also has homosexual tendencies, and like the Baron is also totally malevolent and chaotically evil.

I thought it was especially perverse for Lynch to add cankers and lesions to the Baron's face in his adaptation, which happened to be made in 1984 during the height of when AIDS was rampaging untreated through the gay male community. I know that pissed a lot of people off, though I honestly don't think Lynch was consciously trying to make that connection, but more going for a thoroughly visceral reaction from the viewer - there are plenty of other inexplicably revolting (yet entirely appropriate) details which he added in the Harkonnen/Geidi Prime scenes.

I personally like to think that Herbert came closest to espousing his own views concerning homosexuality in the voices of both Moneo and Duncan, with Moneo probably representing Herbert's views on the issue as an older man, and Idaho representing his more traditional views on the issue that he likely held as a younger man. I think it goes a bit deeper, though, and that Herbert was trying to make a broader statement about the stubborn idiocy of bigots in general, as represented by Idaho. And he's not totally insensitive to bigots - Herbert obviously has a great deal of affection for Idaho, and even links some of his more chivalrous attitudes regarding women to the same place as his intolerance and disgust of homosexuality.

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

From what U remember his son who didn't write was gay and the two never had as close of a relationship as he did with Brian as the two of them would have liked.

I take God Emperor's attempt at adressing homosexuality as a misguided attempt and showing support for his son.

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


kaworu posted:

Lynch also happens to be a heterosexual man who is largely totally ignorant and unaware of homosexuality and its trappings, and as such tends to deal with it insensitively (if it all).

I have no idea where you're getting this, but I can assure you you're way off base here.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Shall I tell you a great secret of the world?

There's no such thing as reliable narrators

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

Blood Boils posted:

Shall I tell you a great secret of the world?

There's no such thing as reliable narrators

Victor Hugo begs to differ.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



TheOmegaWalrus posted:

I have no idea where you're getting this, but I can assure you you're way off base here.

Please cite an example of a male homosexual David Lynch character that isn't malevolent or dark, in some way. He's got significantly less hangups when portraying lesbians, true - I should have been a bit more specific.

edit: The closest one I can really think of is Denise/Dennis Bryson from Twin Peaks, as portrayed by David Duchovny. But even this character - who I don't think is ever actually described as homosexual, just trans - is treated somewhat awkwardly, I'd argue. I'd also point out that Lynch has a brilliant sense of camp, which certainly endears him to many of us who can appreciate a queer sensibility. Nevertheless, I feel like it's notable that I can't think of a single positive portrayal of a gay man in any of his films.

kaworu fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 19, 2021

Debbie Does Dagon
Jul 8, 2005





kaworu posted:

Please cite an example of a male homosexual David Lynch character that isn't malevolent or dark, in some way. He's got significantly less hangups when portraying lesbians, true - I should have been a bit more specific.

edit: The closest one I can really think of is Denise/Dennis Bryson from Twin Peaks, as portrayed by David Duchovny. But even this character - who I don't think is ever actually described as homosexual, just trans - is treated somewhat awkwardly, I'd argue. I'd also point out that Lynch has a brilliant sense of camp, which certainly endears him to many of us who can appreciate a queer sensibility. Nevertheless, I feel like it's notable that I can't think of a single positive portrayal of a gay man in any of his films.

I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any.

Lynch does certainly seem to be either disinterested or disturbed by homosexual male characters though. The most significant male gay-coded character I can think of is Ben from Blue Velvet, whose sexuality seems to be used to disorient the audience and little more.

Cacator
Aug 6, 2005

You're quite good at turning me on.



Debbie Does Dagon posted:

I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any.

Lynch does certainly seem to be either disinterested or disturbed by homosexual male characters though. The most significant male gay-coded character I can think of is Ben from Blue Velvet, whose sexuality seems to be used to disorient the audience and little more.

One take I've read on Denise is that the character is treated with some light humor by most of the other characters in the show with the exception of Agent Cooper who is totally cool with it and never (intentionally) misgenders her which is about as good a take on trans people you could get in the early 90s. In Season 3 Lynch kind or awkwardly pats himself on the back for being progressive (in character as Cole) when Duchovny makes a brief cameo. But he says "change your hearts or die" which is a good line.

Cacator fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 19, 2021

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Debbie Does Dagon posted:

I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any.

Lynch does certainly seem to be either disinterested or disturbed by homosexual male characters though. The most significant male gay-coded character I can think of is Ben from Blue Velvet, whose sexuality seems to be used to disorient the audience and little more.

Yeah, the really lovely thing about the Denise Bryson character in season 2 is the way she interacts with Coop - I always felt like the fact that he puts his unwavering support behind Denise, and does so in a way that's totally supportive, non-judgmental, and way ahead of his time (or even our time) was a great expression of his character and sense of compassion. There is definitely some awkwardness and poor attempts at one-liners, but all in all it's aged VERY well. The plotline with Mr Tojamura, on the other hand, has not aged well at all.

And yeah, Ben is probably the most notable "gay" character in a Lynch film - aside from the Baron Harkonnen, anyway. Frank, also from Blue Velvet, is sexually menacing towards Kyle Maclachlan at certain points, I'd say.

I did forget about one scene from Mulholland Drive - the memorable Winky's Diner dream scene near the start of the film, with Patrick Fischler? It's a scene between him and another man, and the relationship between the two men is ambiguous - they could be friends, boyfriends, or perhaps even therapist and patient. I tend to think they're meant to be a couple, since they seem to be a mirror image of Betty/Rita to some extent, in the scene.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day.

Anne Frank Funk
Nov 4, 2008



Itís peak semi-weird Lynch

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



kaworu posted:

The plotline with Mr Tojamura, on the other hand, has not aged well at all.

I don't know, seems to have anticipated the modern popularity of foot fetishes.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

Booty Shaker
SILENT MAJORITY


I don't think Frank Booth is gay so much as a batshit-crazy rapist.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


The_Doctor posted:

Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day.

god yes, it owns. i kind of wish we lived in a universe where Mulholland Drive got three seasons and Twin Peaks was just a weird one-off pilot-turned-movie

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



phasmid posted:

I don't think Frank Booth is gay so much as a batshit-crazy rapist.

Yes. Frank Booth seems like a sexual sadist whose only turn-on is power or inflicted pain. The implication heíd rape Jeffrey was probably more about that than ďgaynessĒ in any definable way, which is a trait I think he shares with BOB from Twin Peaks (who is implied to have molested Leland Palmer as a child in Fire Walk with Me, and who obviously raped and murdered Laura.)

How David Lynch feels about queer identities is an interesting question, because he definitely codes characters that way and depicts gay or trans people, and not always as villainous or bad. But thereís a LOT of implied or literal gay rape across his filmography.

Ratios and Tendency
Apr 23, 2010

MURALI



The_Doctor posted:

Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day.

Very yep.

TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


In veering us slightly back into topic- test screenings have confirmed that neither Fayd nor the Padishah Emperor will be showing up in person in the first part.

Continuing with the tangent- if a miracle happens and part two is made, anyone besides David Lynch as Emperor is grave miscast.

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TheOmegaWalrus
Feb 3, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


Also I need Feyd-Rautha to be a digitally de-aged David Lynch who instead of being keen with a dagger, he just talks everyone's ear off about transcendental meditation.

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