|
Checkmate, nerds - Can't have a hero's journey without a hero.
|
# ? Feb 11, 2021 20:20 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 19:09 |
|
They can still film Dune Part 2 and Dune Messiah back to back!
|
# ? Feb 11, 2021 21:05 |
|
if your body has bones that means you're a skeleton
|
# ? Feb 12, 2021 03:40 |
|
Frank Herbert broke Joseph Campbell's back and George Lucas brought him back to life as a muppet. Same. Thing.
|
# ? Feb 12, 2021 08:07 |
|
u brexit ukip it posted:They can still film Dune Part 2 and Dune Messiah back to back!
|
# ? Feb 12, 2021 08:16 |
|
Arglebargle III posted:if your body has bones that means you're a skeleton Taking your bodily existence as a whole, most people are skeletons far longer than they are anything else. So, generally speaking...
|
# ? Feb 13, 2021 00:11 |
|
Men are meat.
|
# ? Feb 13, 2021 00:22 |
|
TheOmegaWalrus posted:Men are meat. Women are from vegans.
|
# ? Feb 13, 2021 00:30 |
|
TheOmegaWalrus posted:Men are meat. Men are Vampires, Women are Wampires.
|
# ? Feb 13, 2021 03:18 |
|
I was really luke warm on this new movie until I learned Charlotte Rampling is playing Gaius Helen Mohiam. Hell yeah I'm ready to get Rampled.
G-III fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Feb 17, 2021 |
# ? Feb 17, 2021 01:30 |
|
so i got into an argument with someone who was really nasty to me about this topic (possibly provoked by an urge to defend Frank Herbert's honor, because it was tangentially related to whether he was homophobic or not), but they raised an interesting point and I thought I'd run it by people who aren't quite so deeply invested Namely: do you think Paul and Leto II's understanding of the Golden Path is actually accurate? That is, were Leto's 3500 years of tyranny followed by his suicide at Siona's hands actually necessary for humanity to survive, and more broadly, are his insights into human behavior, history, and culture supposed to be diegetically true or just the ramblings of an insane tyrant?
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 20:17 |
|
Yes, and yes. Good talk. I mean if you wanted to ask "are they true, period, outside the novel" there is a debate, but in the text? No, it's exactly what its sold as. I don't even know how you'd begin to make an argument that it isn't, the text certainly doesn't give you anything to work with. I mean like nothing, I don't even know how you try to devil's advocate it.
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 20:35 |
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:so i got into an argument with someone who was really nasty to me about this topic (possibly provoked by an urge to defend Frank Herbert's honor, because it was tangentially related to whether he was homophobic or not), but they raised an interesting point and I thought I'd run it by people who aren't quite so deeply invested I’m not sure what the answer is, but I’m curious about how this became such a heated topic. Asking whether Leto II is a reliable narrator seems like a great question?
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 20:35 |
|
Jewmanji posted:I’m not sure what the answer is, but I’m curious about how this became such a heated topic. Asking whether Leto II is a reliable narrator seems like a great question? A different, third person asked why Frank Herbert had a reputation for being homophobic (besides writing the Baron Harkonnen, who is conceivably just a monster who happens to be gay), I replied with a passage from God-Emperor where Leto says that gay men are all inherently sadistic, and someone got really upset that I implied Leto's beliefs might reflect Frank Herbert's. Then they kind of drifted from there to "nothing at all that Leto says should be taken seriously, the whole novel is a satire of how fascism is unsustainable" and from there to the question I just posed.
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 20:44 |
|
The Baron is basically Caligula in that regard, but yeah, there's not really a line dividing his homosexuality from his pedophilia, or a line dividing his sadism from his sexuality generally...so, it's not looking good. In general, Dune has a pretty clear moral argument about hedonism or decadence which you could logically apply to his thoughts on sexuality. It seems like sexuality is only good when it's connected to lineage or reproduction, when it has some utility beyond the personal. Characters who actually get off on things or enjoy bodily experience are typically bad guys, but anyone please jump in with a counterexample if you can think of one. Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness. "Is Leto right?" seems like a fair semantic debate, but yeah not really one Frank Herbert intended people to have, I'm sure. But who cares? Have the debate. Herbert was, in fact, a human author and not an omniscient worm-king with esoteric knowledge.
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 23:05 |
|
imo, herbert's take on homosexuality is better reflected by the stuff between Idaho and moneo where Idaho is like 'homosexuals make me uncomfortable' and moneo tells him to deal with it because the world's different now
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 23:07 |
|
Xealot posted:Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness. The Fremen have literal, ritualistic orgies.
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 23:22 |
|
I didn't remember that. Did the orgies get gay?
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 23:44 |
|
Xealot posted:"Is Leto right?" seems like a fair semantic debate, but yeah not really one Frank Herbert intended people to have, I'm sure. But who cares? Have the debate. Herbert was, in fact, a human author and not an omniscient worm-king with esoteric knowledge. Leto is also, explicitly, a foil for humanity at large. Vast swaths of what he says and does aren't intended to be correct or workable. Much of it is intended to be inflammatory, or to teach a lesson. So trying to figure out what he really believes and cares about at any given moment is....challenging. How do you truly narrow down the beliefs of someone playing a role if they never break character?
|
# ? Feb 17, 2021 23:48 |
|
Xealot posted:I didn't remember that. Did the orgies get gay? When everyone's in a stillsuit- what does it matter?
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 00:08 |
|
We know Leto was purposely manipulating society to his own ends, so you can't say for certain that he was speaking truthfully. However, by the events of the book he's already mostly achieved what he had set out to do and has turned his attention more towards his legacy. I think it's fair to think he believed what he said. (Also, there isn't really any story if he doesn't.) This isn't to say his philosophy should be understood as flawless or absolute. His golden path was the golden path de facto because he chose it — there weren't any other psychic gods for him to discuss it with.
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 00:39 |
|
Horizon Burning posted:imo, herbert's take on homosexuality is better reflected by the stuff between Idaho and moneo where Idaho is like 'homosexuals make me uncomfortable' and moneo tells him to deal with it because the world's different now Yeah. I think Herbert may have not understood homosexuality (as a heterosexual) but he made it clear with that exchange that it's a natural thing. Idaho's the one with the bug up his rear end.
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 07:56 |
|
I always thought it was sort of hilariously appropriate for David Lynch to be the first person to adapt Dune, at least in part because (similar to Herbert) Lynch also happens to be a heterosexual man who is largely totally ignorant and unaware of homosexuality and its trappings, and as such tends to deal with it insensitively (if it all). Frank Booth from Blue Velvet also has homosexual tendencies, and like the Baron is also totally malevolent and chaotically evil. I thought it was especially perverse for Lynch to add cankers and lesions to the Baron's face in his adaptation, which happened to be made in 1984 during the height of when AIDS was rampaging untreated through the gay male community. I know that pissed a lot of people off, though I honestly don't think Lynch was consciously trying to make that connection, but more going for a thoroughly visceral reaction from the viewer - there are plenty of other inexplicably revolting (yet entirely appropriate) details which he added in the Harkonnen/Geidi Prime scenes. I personally like to think that Herbert came closest to espousing his own views concerning homosexuality in the voices of both Moneo and Duncan, with Moneo probably representing Herbert's views on the issue as an older man, and Idaho representing his more traditional views on the issue that he likely held as a younger man. I think it goes a bit deeper, though, and that Herbert was trying to make a broader statement about the stubborn idiocy of bigots in general, as represented by Idaho. And he's not totally insensitive to bigots - Herbert obviously has a great deal of affection for Idaho, and even links some of his more chivalrous attitudes regarding women to the same place as his intolerance and disgust of homosexuality.
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 11:01 |
|
From what U remember his son who didn't write was gay and the two never had as close of a relationship as he did with Brian as the two of them would have liked. I take God Emperor's attempt at adressing homosexuality as a misguided attempt and showing support for his son.
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 12:58 |
|
kaworu posted:Lynch also happens to be a heterosexual man who is largely totally ignorant and unaware of homosexuality and its trappings, and as such tends to deal with it insensitively (if it all). I have no idea where you're getting this, but I can assure you you're way off base here.
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 16:06 |
|
Shall I tell you a great secret of the world? There's no such thing as reliable narrators
|
# ? Feb 18, 2021 22:23 |
|
Blood Boils posted:Shall I tell you a great secret of the world? Victor Hugo begs to differ.
|
# ? Feb 19, 2021 06:50 |
|
TheOmegaWalrus posted:I have no idea where you're getting this, but I can assure you you're way off base here. Please cite an example of a male homosexual David Lynch character that isn't malevolent or dark, in some way. He's got significantly less hangups when portraying lesbians, true - I should have been a bit more specific. edit: The closest one I can really think of is Denise/Dennis Bryson from Twin Peaks, as portrayed by David Duchovny. But even this character - who I don't think is ever actually described as homosexual, just trans - is treated somewhat awkwardly, I'd argue. I'd also point out that Lynch has a brilliant sense of camp, which certainly endears him to many of us who can appreciate a queer sensibility. Nevertheless, I feel like it's notable that I can't think of a single positive portrayal of a gay man in any of his films. kaworu fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Feb 19, 2021 |
# ? Feb 19, 2021 08:17 |
kaworu posted:Please cite an example of a male homosexual David Lynch character that isn't malevolent or dark, in some way. He's got significantly less hangups when portraying lesbians, true - I should have been a bit more specific. I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any. Lynch does certainly seem to be either disinterested or disturbed by homosexual male characters though. The most significant male gay-coded character I can think of is Ben from Blue Velvet, whose sexuality seems to be used to disorient the audience and little more.
|
|
# ? Feb 19, 2021 22:08 |
|
Debbie Does Dagon posted:I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any. One take I've read on Denise is that the character is treated with some light humor by most of the other characters in the show with the exception of Agent Cooper who is totally cool with it and never (intentionally) misgenders her which is about as good a take on trans people you could get in the early 90s. In Season 3 Lynch kind or awkwardly pats himself on the back for being progressive (in character as Cole) when Duchovny makes a brief cameo. But he says "change your hearts or die" which is a good line. Cacator fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Feb 19, 2021 |
# ? Feb 19, 2021 23:07 |
|
Debbie Does Dagon posted:I found Denise during Season Two to be a broadly sympathetic character, but absolutely is played for laughs at several points, and I can't imagine they actually consulted with any people who are trans when creating or writing the character. I also don't think Lynch actually wrote or directed any of the significant Season Two Denise episodes, though I'm not sure what hand he played in creating her, if any. Yeah, the really lovely thing about the Denise Bryson character in season 2 is the way she interacts with Coop - I always felt like the fact that he puts his unwavering support behind Denise, and does so in a way that's totally supportive, non-judgmental, and way ahead of his time (or even our time) was a great expression of his character and sense of compassion. There is definitely some awkwardness and poor attempts at one-liners, but all in all it's aged VERY well. The plotline with Mr Tojamura, on the other hand, has not aged well at all. And yeah, Ben is probably the most notable "gay" character in a Lynch film - aside from the Baron Harkonnen, anyway. Frank, also from Blue Velvet, is sexually menacing towards Kyle Maclachlan at certain points, I'd say. I did forget about one scene from Mulholland Drive - the memorable Winky's Diner dream scene near the start of the film, with Patrick Fischler? It's a scene between him and another man, and the relationship between the two men is ambiguous - they could be friends, boyfriends, or perhaps even therapist and patient. I tend to think they're meant to be a couple, since they seem to be a mirror image of Betty/Rita to some extent, in the scene.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2021 15:09 |
|
Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2021 15:27 |
|
It’s peak semi-weird Lynch
|
# ? Feb 20, 2021 17:29 |
|
kaworu posted:The plotline with Mr Tojamura, on the other hand, has not aged well at all. I don't know, seems to have anticipated the modern popularity of foot fetishes.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2021 17:47 |
|
I don't think Frank Booth is gay so much as a batshit-crazy rapist.
|
# ? Feb 20, 2021 21:45 |
|
The_Doctor posted:Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day. god yes, it owns. i kind of wish we lived in a universe where Mulholland Drive got three seasons and Twin Peaks was just a weird one-off pilot-turned-movie
|
# ? Feb 21, 2021 01:03 |
|
phasmid posted:I don't think Frank Booth is gay so much as a batshit-crazy rapist. Yes. Frank Booth seems like a sexual sadist whose only turn-on is power or inflicted pain. The implication he’d rape Jeffrey was probably more about that than “gayness” in any definable way, which is a trait I think he shares with BOB from Twin Peaks (who is implied to have molested Leland Palmer as a child in Fire Walk with Me, and who obviously raped and murdered Laura.) How David Lynch feels about queer identities is an interesting question, because he definitely codes characters that way and depicts gay or trans people, and not always as villainous or bad. But there’s a LOT of implied or literal gay rape across his filmography.
|
# ? Feb 21, 2021 10:30 |
The_Doctor posted:Is Mulholland Drive worth a watch? I've skipped over it a few times, but I should probably give it a go one day. Very yep.
|
|
# ? Feb 26, 2021 23:44 |
|
In veering us slightly back into topic- test screenings have confirmed that neither Fayd nor the Padishah Emperor will be showing up in person in the first part. Continuing with the tangent- if a miracle happens and part two is made, anyone besides David Lynch as Emperor is grave miscast.
|
# ? Feb 27, 2021 00:37 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 19:09 |
|
Also I need Feyd-Rautha to be a digitally de-aged David Lynch who instead of being keen with a dagger, he just talks everyone's ear off about transcendental meditation.
|
# ? Feb 27, 2021 00:40 |