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AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Xealot posted:

For real. I want this very badly. And I feel like we're owed one, since the universe took David Bowie from us before he could play Niander Wallace in BR2049.

This is another absolute robbery. Leto is easily the worst part of 2049. His role is weird, but he absolutely fails to sell it. I think maybe the contacts were a mistake, but still. And yet, if I imagine dropping Bowie into the same spot and all other things being equal, same dialogue, same shots, etc, it becomes fantastic.

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feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



Leto is a decent enough actor when well-utilized (Requiem), but he can't elevate material. They needed someone who could make reading a phone book compelling as hell.

The contacts were for sure necessary, though—without him being blind, the whole eye motif falls totally flat.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Leto can’t hold a candle to Bowie, needless to say, but I do think casting a kind of wormy guy who evinces a type of Thiel-esque technofascism was helpful for the role. I think it works that Wallace basically comes off as a rich kid rather than an insane genius, like Bowie might’ve.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Jared Leto should play Duke Leto and also Leto II in the sequels.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:



AlternateAccount posted:

This is another absolute robbery. Leto is easily the worst part of 2049. His role is weird, but he absolutely fails to sell it. I think maybe the contacts were a mistake, but still. And yet, if I imagine dropping Bowie into the same spot and all other things being equal, same dialogue, same shots, etc, it becomes fantastic.

I didn't buy any part of his performance in 2049, you already knew what you were going to get when he was announced so I guess he didn't let us down??

Al Cu Ad Solte
Nov 30, 2005
Searching for
a righteous cause


I love BR2049 but it is an absolute trip watching the difference between Leto and Gosling. Gosling's character has like, 15 lines of dialogue throughout the entire movie and just sells his character's emotional state through his body language and facial expressions in a way that looks effortless. When he finds the wooden horse and his entire world just shatters. Then AGAIN when he finds out he's not the child at all...

Meanwhile, Leto is putting in so much effort and just gorging himself on the scenery and it lands with a impact of a wet fart. I hate that dude. Luckily he doesn't ruin the movie because he has much better actors to perform off of.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



Plus, Wallace sucks in-universe as well. But I really would have preferred a stronger performance, he's easily the worst part of an otherwise flawless film.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009



In BoJack Horseman two characters bond over complaining about a fruit salad with too much honeydew melon in it.
"Urgh, honeydew. It's the worst part of everything that it's in.
It's the Jaret Leto of fruit"
And frankly that summary has never been topped.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


I thought Leto was totally fine as Niander Wallace, it's just that Wallace was kind of a bad character to begin with.

Like, that's the thing about Leto that I notice. He's not a bad actor by any means and, if he has good material, he can actually do really remarkably well with it. But he just keeps being given the absolute worst material, and in roles that should be easy slam-dunks like "being the new Joker" or "being the new Tyrell in the Blade Runner sequel." I don't hate him the way some people do because this really clearly isn't his fault; I'm not sure if this is Hollywood actively trying to dunk on him or if he's just very, very unlucky.

e: With Wallace, for example, if he'd actually mattered beyond just occasionally showing up to stop the movie dead and twirl his mustache, it would have been fine. Hell, cut out everything with him on-camera except his scene with Deckard and he suddenly works a lot better. Villenueve just used a heavy hand where a light touch would have been preferable.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 30, 2020

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009



I think it's the stories about his method acting, especially in regards to Suicide Squad, that does the heavy lifting in getting people to dislike him. Plus he seems to give the impression that he thinks he's an actor two orders of magnitude better than he actually is (that could just be a media creation, in all fairness).

Thing is, he's an alright actor, but he keeps being given roles that require more talent than he has, and it keeps happening, which means there's always a reason to be annoyed at him.

I think the idea of Wallace is excellent by itself though. An intelligent man that's entirely bought into his own hype, and living in the shadow of actual genius. He reflects our current reality of insecure tech bros acting like messiahs. A better actor could really have brought the emotional fragility of that existence to life.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Bug Squash posted:

I think the idea of Wallace is excellent by itself though. An intelligent man that's entirely bought into his own hype, and living in the shadow of actual genius. He reflects our current reality of insecure tech bros acting like messiahs. A better actor could really have brought the emotional fragility of that existence to life.

Yeah, on the page, the character makes sense. He's a hyperbolic take on a tech bro billionaire, a "visionary" capitalist who's arrogant to the point he believes he's a god. Leto handles that aspect...fine, I guess. But there's no subtlety or nuance in it, he's all bluster and menace and grandiosity.

The thought I had leaving the movie was how much better it'd be if Wallace had, like, a false warmth to him. If he felt paternal or empathic but then did the violent, hosed-up stuff he does. Ironically, the actor that came to mind when I imagined that version of the character was Stellan Skarsgård. I guess I'm getting my Villeneuve / Skarsgård fix this year.

Rando
Mar 11, 2004

by Fluffdaddy


LORD OF BOOTY posted:

Like, that's the thing about Leto that I notice. He's not a bad actor by any means and, if he has good material, he can actually do really remarkably well with it. But he just keeps being given the absolute worst material...

Then he and/or his agents suck at choosing roles that suit him.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

Bug Squash posted:

He reflects our current reality of insecure tech bros acting like messiahs.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 30, 2020

Noob Saibot
Jan 29, 2020


I’m reading Dune for the first time right now and all that keeps going through my head is how George Lucas shamelessly ripped this off when developing the Star Wars Saga

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Which is kind of what Star Wars is in all aspects. Random bits shamelessly sliced off other properties, blended into a more accessible form for a mass audience. It's Dune, but also it's a western and a WW2 dogfight movie and a samurai movie and a fantasy epic. With some Ben Hur and a little bit of Triumph of the Will and a little John Carter of Mars. It's pure pastiche, and nakedly so.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


It's not like there's all that much that's original to Dune, either. The novel works as well as it does because it's stylization elevates/disguises what is otherwise a rote plot.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


On the one hand, there's clearly a lot of allegory in Dune. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing anyone would call it rote. You have to really drill down to the core elements of the plot to say that it's just a monomyth story. Surely there is a reason that Dune is getting its third screen adaptation while so many 1960s science fiction books about expanded consciousness and heroes with psychic powers are forgotten.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Rando posted:

Then he and/or his agents suck at choosing roles that suit him.

The roles are all good on paper, though. Joker has typically been a character where whoever plays him gets to put on an acting masterclass. Niander Wallace is a successor of sorts to one of the more memorable supporting characters in the original BR. Any actor would be batshit crazy to turn those down, and yet, when Leto gets these kinds of roles, it's when everyone else decides it's time for that character to be some low effort garbo.

e: Like, this is why you should read entire posts instead of just deciding everything after the part you wanted to respond to doesn't matter.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 31, 2020

wizardofloneliness
Dec 30, 2008



My impression of Leto is that he's ok I guess, but that he seems vastly more concerned with being seen as a serious artist than he is actually doing anything that warrants that description. He just seems like someone who thinks going method, or whatever he thinks method acting is, is enough to qualify as good.

My favorite Leto trivia is the time he gained 70 pounds and gave himself gout for a movie absolutely no one cares about or remembers.

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016



wizardofloneliness posted:

My impression of Leto is that he's ok I guess, but that he seems vastly more concerned with being seen as a serious artist than he is actually doing anything that warrants that description. He just seems like someone who thinks going method, or whatever he thinks method acting is, is enough to qualify as good.

My favorite Leto trivia is the time he gained 70 pounds and gave himself gout for a movie absolutely no one cares about or remembers.

It took me a little while to work out that the thread was discussing the famous actor Jared Leto, not the fictional nobleman Leto Atreides. I think I should get some sleep.

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012



Fun Shoe

I watched The King on Netflix with Timothee Chalamet and I wasnt exactly impressed.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Arglebargle III posted:

On the one hand, there's clearly a lot of allegory in Dune. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing anyone would call it rote. You have to really drill down to the core elements of the plot to say that it's just a monomyth story. Surely there is a reason that Dune is getting its third screen adaptation while so many 1960s science fiction books about expanded consciousness and heroes with psychic powers are forgotten.

There is a rote form to the central plot, but that's part of the point. Paul goes on a hero's journey so Dune can interrogate the nature of a hero. He's a dude who fits himself into a ready-made myth so he can use it to empower his revenge and restoration. He's not a chosen one, but he's made by his and others' hands into one. But that's just one of the many concepts the book is exploring. It's plots within plots, schemes within schemes.

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


Schwarzwald posted:

It's not like there's all that much that's original to Dune, either. The novel works as well as it does because it's stylization elevates/disguises what is otherwise a rote plot.

Maybe it was the years of hype, but it seemed to me that the whole book was actually building up to a joke. All the little chapter headers are great, and most of them are from hagiographies written by the princess that Paul marries at the end of the book. But at the end of the book Paul says something like, 'I heard Princess [name] likes history. I hope its true, because she is getting the contractual minimum from me.' Just a really weird disconnect from the reputation the book has.

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003



SHISHKABOB posted:

I watched The King on Netflix with Timothee Chalamet and I wasnt exactly impressed.

I thought he did well. He's kind of a shrimpy, boy-ish looking guy who nevertheless can speak with authority, and assuming that wasn't a double in all the fight scenes, he can do that pretty well too. Nothing to get super excited about but he'll be fine as Paul

The King's writing didn't exactly give him primo material to work with, either

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


I thought he was bad in The King but he was really good in Call Me By Your Name and Little Women, so who knows what he'll be like in Dune.

I love Kyle MacLachlan, but even I don't think he was a perfect fit for Paul. What I think he sells well though is his transition from innocent and dopey to a leader of the Fremen. That whole section is rushed, but MacLachlan sells the shift in his character.

Cacator
Aug 6, 2005

You're quite good at turning me on.



SHISHKABOB posted:

I watched The King on Netflix with Timothee Chalamet and I wasnt exactly impressed.

If we're basing our Dune opinions on The King then Robert Pattison should play Feyd.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

If we're fan casting then I want Gilbert Gottfried to be the Emperor

"Y'know, is it just me or are people obsessed with the spice?? MelANGE - they gotta have it!"

Vincent
Nov 25, 2005





Cacator posted:

If we're basing our Dune opinions on The King then Robert Pattison should play Feyd.
And keep the accent.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

PeterWeller posted:

There is a rote form to the central plot, but that's part of the point. Paul goes on a hero's journey so Dune can interrogate the nature of a hero. He's a dude who fits himself into a ready-made myth so he can use it to empower his revenge and restoration. He's not a chosen one, but he's made by his and others' hands into one. But that's just one of the many concepts the book is exploring. It's plots within plots, schemes within schemes.

Frank Herbert's main idea was arguing against the "Great Man" theory of history by showing a messianic revolutionary hero who is, inevitably, a product of greater historical forces and movements that he can't control. Of course there's also a lot about ecology and human development (there are strict rules against "thinking machines" in the Imperium, so they're replaced by hyper-trained Mentats and Bene Gesserit, and the Guild need spice to do their advanced hyperspace calculations, hence he who controls the spice... etc.)

Even splitting it up into two movies I doubt they'll be able to catch absolutely everything.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

My takeaway from Jared Leto chat is that he is the actor equivalent of Triple H. Guy is a 7 but acts like he's a 9 so he comes off as a 5.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

I think Herbert was also arguing against some of the themes in Asimov's Foundation trilogy. Herbert's writing style was to often take other sci-fi stories and flip the themes around and challenge them. In the case of Dune he was saying that prescience is a really dangerous thing in the hands of a tyrant, whereas Asimov's psychohistorians save the galaxy in Foundation. Herbert had a strong libertarian streak and distrusted centralized governments and technocrats.

I think he flipped the protagonist/antagonist relationiship around as well. In Dune, Asimov's antagonist -- the Mule -- becomes Herbert's protagonist in Paul; the unexpected variable that was not predicted and that throws off the well-laid plans of the psychohistorians, Asimov's protagonists who become Herbert's antagonists in the Bene Gesserit.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Jan 31, 2020

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

habituallyred posted:

Maybe it was the years of hype, but it seemed to me that the whole book was actually building up to a joke. All the little chapter headers are great, and most of them are from hagiographies written by the princess that Paul marries at the end of the book. But at the end of the book Paul says something like, 'I heard Princess [name] likes history. I hope its true, because she is getting the contractual minimum from me.' Just a really weird disconnect from the reputation the book has.
Yeah I am a huge Dune freak / pervert and have a bunch of Dune stuff including some pretty rare stuff. But I think Herbert could have probably turned his sci-fi novels into a cult like L. Ron Hubbard if he wanted to, since some of the fans would've probably gone for it. It has definitely long had a real hardcore cult following. Not to bring BH/KJA into this but those novels upset some of those fans so bad they started calling themselves "Orthodox Herbertarians." They even developed a horribly snobby forum called Jacurutu which is a Fremen term for those who have been cast out ... from the official forums!!!

lol

But they're just sci-fi novels, with Herbert playing with other sci-fi concepts and flipping themes around. I believe he talked about his methods and also criticism of Asimov in "Maker of Dune" which is a collection of his essays published after his death. I have a copy sitting in a box somewhere.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


habituallyred posted:

Maybe it was the years of hype, but it seemed to me that the whole book was actually building up to a joke

Lord of Light came into being because Roger Zelazny wanted to include the pun "then the fit hit the Shan" in a book.

cptn_dr
Sep 7, 2011

Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies



Vincent posted:

And keep the accent.

This but from The Lighthouse

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


PeterWeller posted:

There is a rote form to the central plot, but that's part of the point. Paul goes on a hero's journey so Dune can interrogate the nature of a hero. He's a dude who fits himself into a ready-made myth so he can use it to empower his revenge and restoration. He's not a chosen one, but he's made by his and others' hands into one. But that's just one of the many concepts the book is exploring. It's plots within plots, schemes within schemes.

Yeah what this guy said.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



Maxwell Lord posted:

Frank Herbert's main idea was arguing against the "Great Man" theory of history by showing a messianic revolutionary hero who is, inevitably, a product of greater historical forces and movements that he can't control. Of course there's also a lot about ecology and human development (there are strict rules against "thinking machines" in the Imperium, so they're replaced by hyper-trained Mentats and Bene Gesserit, and the Guild need spice to do their advanced hyperspace calculations, hence he who controls the spice... etc.)

Even splitting it up into two movies I doubt they'll be able to catch absolutely everything.

Yeah. Here's a link to the article where Herbert discusses his intentions. Sure, Intentional Fallacy/"Death of the Author", but Dune's narrative rhetoric clearly supports this intended reading.

https://archive.org/stream/OMNI197908/OMNI_1980_07#page/n39/mode/2up

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

I think Herbert was also arguing against some of the themes in Asimov's Foundation trilogy. Herbert's writing style was to often take other sci-fi stories and flip the themes around and challenge them. In the case of Dune he was saying that prescience is a really dangerous thing in the hands of a tyrant, whereas Asimov's psychohistorians save the galaxy in Foundation. Herbert had a strong libertarian streak and distrusted centralized governments and technocrats.

I think he flipped the protagonist/antagonist relationiship around as well. In Dune, Asimov's antagonist -- the Mule -- becomes Herbert's protagonist in Paul; the unexpected variable that was not predicted and that throws off the well-laid plans of the psychohistorians, Asimov's protagonists who become Herbert's antagonists in the Bene Gesserit.

Yeah, I think you're right. John Grigsby has written a couple of articles about this.

PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jan 31, 2020

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

habituallyred posted:

All the little chapter headers are great, and most of them are from hagiographies written by the princess that Paul marries at the end of the book. But at the end of the book Paul says something like, 'I heard Princess [name] likes history. I hope its true, because she is getting the contractual minimum from me.'

Actually it was Jessica who says it at the end. Basically she and Chani are watching Paul make his power play at the end of the book and Jessica sees that Chani is starting to feel like Paul is casting aside and is all like "lol you're gonna cuck the poo poo out of that spoiled bitch."

It's the first sign that the later books are going to get super horny.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Tree Bucket posted:

It took me a little while to work out that the thread was discussing the famous actor Jared Leto, not the fictional nobleman Leto Atreides. I think I should get some sleep.

Duke Leto and Baron Harkonnen feuding and declaring a war of assassins because Leto only got the most minimal gains.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Cacator posted:

If we're basing our Dune opinions on The King then Robert Pattison should play Feyd.


Holy poo poo this would own.


Schwarzwald posted:

It's not like there's all that much that's original to Dune, either. The novel works as well as it does because it's stylization elevates/disguises what is otherwise a rote plot.

Yeah but just on even a superficial level A New Hope has moisture farmers and spice smugglers on desert planet with two suns and "sand people" and a mysterious, almost magic-like ability called the voice the force that lets someone be extremely persuasive. Which makes sense since Lucas was briefly involved in developing a Dune adaptation but still, it's there.

And while it wasn't in the final movie at all, Lucas himself has said Dune was a huge influence, and in earlier versions of the script there were even feuding houses and guilds instead of just the empire and rebels and instead of The Important Thing being the death star plans it was a formula for "aura spice."

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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


All of the realpolitik and palace intrigue was saved for the prequels. The trade federation is basically just CHOAM, the senate is the Landsraad etc.

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