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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

Landsraad? I am the Landsraad.

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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



habituallyred posted:

Maybe it was the years of hype, but it seemed to me that the whole book was actually building up to a joke. All the little chapter headers are great, and most of them are from hagiographies written by the princess that Paul marries at the end of the book. But at the end of the book Paul says something like, 'I heard Princess [name] likes history. I hope its true, because she is getting the contractual minimum from me.' Just a really weird disconnect from the reputation the book has.

I kinda hope they flesh out Irulan a bit more. She has a pretty cool arc over the trilogy - especially when she gets cold feet about treason and ends up being one of Leto IIs most fervent supporters.

You could do an interesting feminist analysis of Irulan and Harah over the trilogy. It feels very Le Guin - patriarchy has forced this women into the role of wives and political playing pieces, but instead of trying to overturn the whole system they carve out a little chunk of space where they have respect and control.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

I remember so many people challenge Paul to knife-fights for leadership that Chani starts doing the fights for him while he's doing whatever and her reasoning is like he's got more important things to do and also these folks want to kill her man so of course she's going to gently caress them up. But she also brings up how it sends a message to the rest of the world that like, you want to gently caress with Muad'dib? lol yeah right even Muad'dib's mere woman by herself has a higher body count than your entire sietch. And while the fighting prowess of the Fremen in Dune is unmatched/etc., you can see how that kind of takes effect to its logical endpoint when towards the end of the book you see characters freaking about how oh poo poo even small Fremen children are on par with the Sardaukar and even more ferocious.

Casimir Radon
Aug 1, 2008




I'm not seeing any announcement on who's play Feyd. Hopefully they just got Sting back.

WarMECH
Dec 23, 2004


Feyd doesn't really show up until late in the book so will probably only appear in DUNC: Part 2 if they make it.

I'm currently in a reread myself and I was just thinking that in the scene where Feyd fights an unnamed Atreides soldier to impress his uncle and Count Fenring, they could make him be Duncan in the movie to give Momoa a cool onscreen death instead of just disappearing like he did in the book.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Feyd and Rabban will have to be consolidated, just like Duncan/Thufir/Gurney, I suspect.

WarMECH
Dec 23, 2004


Rabban and Feyd serve entirely different purposes in the story that wouldn't make any sense.

And actors for Duncan/Thufir/Gurney have all been cast already so they are definitely 3 separate characters.

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


Jewmanji posted:

Feyd and Rabban will have to be consolidated, just like Duncan/Thufir/Gurney, I suspect.

Isnít Bautista playing Rabban? I really doubt heís been merged with Feyd; Bautista could take on a schoolbus of Tim Chalamets and win.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


WarMECH posted:

Rabban and Feyd serve entirely different purposes in the story that wouldn't make any sense.

And actors for Duncan/Thufir/Gurney have all been cast already so they are definitely 3 separate characters.

Yes but when you adapt things you often have to dramatically simplify them. Rabban and Feyd are each fairly minor presences in the book, despite their important to the overall plot. With four hours of film itíll be very difficult to justify all of these characters existences

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:


Soiled Meat

WarMECH posted:

Feyd doesn't really show up until late in the book so will probably only appear in DUNC: Part 2 if they make it.

I'm currently in a reread myself and I was just thinking that in the scene where Feyd fights an unnamed Atreides soldier to impress his uncle and Count Fenring, they could make him be Duncan in the movie to give Momoa a cool onscreen death instead of just disappearing like he did in the book.

I had this exact same thought about putting Duncan into that fight in the movie. Also the whole Harkonnen crew is all introduced in the same early chapter of the book.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



WarMECH posted:

Feyd doesn't really show up until late in the book so will probably only appear in DUNC: Part 2 if they make it.

I'm currently in a reread myself and I was just thinking that in the scene where Feyd fights an unnamed Atreides soldier to impress his uncle and Count Fenring, they could make him be Duncan in the movie to give Momoa a cool onscreen death instead of just disappearing like he did in the book.

Duncan doesn't just disappear off screen. Paul sees him catch a slow pellet in the head: "Paul had one last glimpse of Idaho standing against a swarm of Harkonnen uniforms--his jerking controlled staggers, the black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it." Then a few paragraphs later, Jessica says, "Duncan's dead, Paul. You saw the wound."

I think this sad anticlimactic death is much more fitting to the story, and I think it would be more effective on screen than some glorious death in an arena.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Sidenote: I'm re-reading Doon (thanks, ebay!) and there are so many jokes I didn't get when I first read it as a teen. Herbert's literary style is ribbed even more mercilessly than I remember, as well. Definitely worth a read if you can find it.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



The best thing about Doon is how it careens from juvenile to incisive and back, sometimes in the same sentence.

Casimir Radon
Aug 1, 2008




Consolidating Rabban and Feyd would be pretty dumb. Part of Vlad's plan was to let Rabban rule like a psycho for a while so that when it was time for Feyd to take over he'd look better in comparison.

Paddyo
Aug 3, 2007


Yeah, from what we've seen of the casting it doesn't make sense that they would consolidate those two. I imagine we'll get some dialogue about Feyd in the movie and he'll be cast in the second.

Al Cu Ad Solte
Nov 30, 2005
Searching for
a righteous cause


Dune knowledge havers: why does everyone else have setting appropriate names but then there's a guy named Duncan Idaho, which if I didn't know better was the guy that founded Idaho Potatoes.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



cptn_dr posted:

This but from The Lighthouse

"Let Shai Hulud strike ye dead, Feyd-Rautha! HAAARK!!!"

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl



Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

Dune knowledge havers: why does everyone else have setting appropriate names but then there's a guy named Duncan Idaho, which if I didn't know better was the guy that founded Idaho Potatoes.

He's got a comically MidwestTM name because he's essentially Space John Wayne until he gets shot in the face.

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

Think Indiana Jones.
Also towards the end of God Emperor, a woman has an orgasm watching Duncan scale a cliff.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


PeterWeller posted:

Yeah. Here's a link to the article where Herbert discusses his intentions. Sure, Intentional Fallacy/"Death of the Author", but Dune's narrative rhetoric clearly supports this intended reading.

https://archive.org/stream/OMNI197908/OMNI_1980_07#page/n39/mode/2up


Frank Herbert posted:

As in an Escher lithograph I involved myself with recurrent themes that turn to paradox...It s like a koan a Zen mind breaker It s like the Cretan Epimenides saying, 'All Cretans are liars "

really makes u think...

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3554972&pagenumber=575&perpage=40#post474457029

General Battuta posted:

Half the philosophy Herbert writes is bullshit designed to spoof your smart thought detector. A good game is 'does this chapter epigram actually mean anything?'

Destination Void is just the worst about this. 2/3 of the book is wordy rambling about the nature of consciousness without any grounding in neuro.

SixFigureSandwich
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

PeterWeller posted:

Duncan doesn't just disappear off screen. Paul sees him catch a slow pellet in the head: "Paul had one last glimpse of Idaho standing against a swarm of Harkonnen uniforms--his jerking controlled staggers, the black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it." Then a few paragraphs later, Jessica says, "Duncan's dead, Paul. You saw the wound."

I think this sad anticlimactic death is much more fitting to the story, and I think it would be more effective on screen than some glorious death in an arena.

Anticlimactic? Doesn't he die fighting off 19 Sardaukar and mostly winning?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





u brexit ukip it posted:

Anticlimactic? Doesn't he die fighting off 19 Sardaukar and mostly winning?
Depending on how you look at it, he definitely wins, but the story doesn't stay focused on the heroic Last Stand of Duncan Idaho, instead it follows the Duke's psychic son and his mom as they flee further.

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Just realised that the first line of the thread should have been:

A N I D A H O

SixFigureSandwich
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Nessus posted:

Depending on how you look at it, he definitely wins, but the story doesn't stay focused on the heroic Last Stand of Duncan Idaho, instead it follows the Duke's psychic son and his mom as they flee further.

True, but any director looking to add an extra action scene has his work cut out for him there.

Feldegast42
Oct 29, 2011



David D. Davidson posted:

Think Indiana Jones.
Also towards the end of God Emperor, a woman has an orgasm watching Duncan scale a cliff.

I never read past the first book but every excerpt afterwards sounds deliciously horny when posted

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.



u brexit ukip it posted:

Anticlimactic? Doesn't he die fighting off 19 Sardaukar and mostly winning?

He's this awesome knife fighter cutting down dudes left and right and then he just catches a bullet in the head and the story goes on.


Herbert's works wouldn't be half as wonderful without all the rambling psychobabble. And the epigrams always relate the their chapters, sometimes just as little jokes.

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008


Honestly the whole human potential angle of the book is so silly and of its time. You could be as smart as a computer if you just studied really, really hard!

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




I think Herbert's actual writing is pretty bad and thus have never been a huge fan of the book as a whole but the universe is so interesting including stuff like Mentats.

I'll never understand why Anderson and lil Herbert thought it was a good idea to make the Butlerian Jihad a generic war against domineering machines I always envisioned it as a luddite kinda thing.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

porfiria posted:

Honestly the whole human potential angle of the book is so silly and of its time. You could be as smart as a computer if you just studied really, really hard!

No, it's study hard and take transhumanist drugs.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, MAD-2R World


Mulva posted:

No, it's study hard and take transhumanist drugs.

How many drugs were in that book?

Spice
Semuta
Sapho
Elacca
Shere
Verite
Water of Life

Etc., etc.

:350:

Patrick Spens
Jul 21, 2006

"Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"


Pillbug

Groovelord Neato posted:

I'll never understand why Anderson and lil Herbert thought it was a good idea to make the Butlerian Jihad a generic war against domineering machines I always envisioned it as a luddite kinda thing.

Because they're lazy hacks.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Mulva posted:

No, it's study hard and take transhumanist drugs.

You also needed to do meditation and yoga.

One of the premises of the book is that 60s new age bullshit actually works.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

Groovelord Neato posted:

I think Herbert's actual writing is pretty bad and thus have never been a huge fan of the book as a whole but the universe is so interesting including stuff like Mentats.

I'll never understand why Anderson and lil Herbert thought it was a good idea to make the Butlerian Jihad a generic war against domineering machines I always envisioned it as a luddite kinda thing.
yeah as a crusade against "machine thinking," i.e. automation. and in herbert's context of the time as reflecting fears of computerization after world war II.

the dune encyclopedia is quasi-canon because herbert signed off on it, but out of print (it also conflicts with the prequels... hmm), which is very interesting in terms of world building. it describes the jihad as being sparked by horror at automated abortions.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

i don't mean to get all political, but i think it's interesting dune appeals to people with wildly different political views, while i've understood herbert to be pretty conservative or at least libertarian minded in a very pacific northwestern kind of way. i would probably guess it's due to the intensity of his vision, which is probably the most we can ask of a writer (along with being, like, not a lunatic)

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

yeah as a crusade against "machine thinking," i.e. automation. and in herbert's context of the time as reflecting fears of computerization after world war II.

the dune encyclopedia is quasi-canon because herbert signed off on it, but out of print (it also conflicts with the prequels... hmm), which is very interesting in terms of world building. it describes the jihad as being sparked by horror at automated abortions.

Yeah even with the illustrations of literal robots and their human servants enslaving humanity in the Lynch illustrated intro, I always took it to be basically mythology to the people in Dune. And one where stuff is overly automated to the detriment of humanity rather than a literal Terminator-like scenario where thinking machines conquer people in the army sense. I mean it's something that happens 10,000 years before Dune takes place, look at how fluid our understanding of historical figures and the narratives built around them are from like, not even 1,000 years ago. So you could basically make the Butlerian Jihad pretty much anything you want so of course they went with the least interesting option.

Speaking of this, the overarching story and themes of the Picard show so far :aaaaa:, I wasn't expecting it to go in the direction it's going at all, a great surprise.



BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

i don't mean to get all political, but i think it's interesting dune appeals to people with wildly different political views, while i've understood herbert to be pretty conservative or at least libertarian minded in a very pacific northwestern kind of way. i would probably guess it's due to the intensity of his vision, which is probably the most we can ask of a writer (along with being, like, not a lunatic)

This always makes me wonder, Dune has a reputation of being too weird to film and being particularly strange compared to other popular sci-fi stuff. But if the book is as popular and overall well-regarded as it is, is it really that weird? It's like how EVERYONE sees themselves and their political mindset as the rebels in Star Wars and not the empire no matter what their situation or walk of life is. There's a lot of politicking in Dune but the basic like, chosen one, noble savages, treacherous bad guys, galactic fate hinging on a personal grudge knife-fight kind of pieces are all in place and there's so much personal motivation to everyone's actions, it's easy to like how the story plays out regardless of one's political views.

Plus Herbert was definitely a conservative guy, but like I can't imagine some of the "luminaries" of libertarianism today writing something like Dune Messiah as a follow up to Dune. So no being a lunatic is definitely a huge help in service of the Dune saga.


PeterWeller posted:

Duncan doesn't just disappear off screen. Paul sees him catch a slow pellet in the head: "Paul had one last glimpse of Idaho standing against a swarm of Harkonnen uniforms--his jerking controlled staggers, the black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it." Then a few paragraphs later, Jessica says, "Duncan's dead, Paul. You saw the wound."

I think this sad anticlimactic death is much more fitting to the story, and I think it would be more effective on screen than some glorious death in an arena.

No way having him be the arena guy would be even MORE anti-climatic, like show him making his stand, you see him make a stand and get gunned down as Jessica/Paul feel like in the book. Then when he pops up in the arena, wounded but with a lot of fight left in him, it's like gently caress yeah Duncan is back, but just have Feyd like completely clown him and use the poison barbs and stuff like in the book so it's even more anti-climatic.

Either way I really do think one of those three should typically be cut or otherwise combined in some way. But since this is going to be two movies I hope that means everyone will be done justice to how they play out in the book.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Payndz posted:

Just realised that the first line of the thread should have been:

A N I D A H O

The real reason that Dune has never quite had a hit adaptation: it's just a real hard ask to get people to accept that the ultimate badass of the far future is named Duncan Idaho

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...


Grimey Drawer

Schwarzwald posted:

You also needed to do meditation and yoga.

One of the premises of the book is that 60s new age bullshit actually works.

I remember reading in a later Dune-novel that the first Mentat was trained by intelligent robots, so did Herbert change his mind later or was the message that Humans are so much better at being robots even robots agree?

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


sean10mm posted:

How many drugs were in that book?

Spice
Semuta
Sapho
Elacca
Shere
Verite
Water of Life

Etc., etc.

:350:

To be fair aren't like half those essentially the same thing? "Worm poo poo" is the common through line to a lot of them. Like how Crack and Cocaine are the same thing in the end.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Only spice and water of life are sandworm juice. The others are space-red bull, space-PCP, space-opium, space-sodium pentathol, and uh.... space-CJD

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the_enduser
May 1, 2006

They say the user lives outside the net.





Yo can I just get an Arnold Palmer?

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