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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Memnaelar posted:

I did some Feyd-diving and the current speculation is that he's not in the first movie -- either that or they're saving his casting for a big reveal. I've seen some of the names they've suggested as possible leaks, but none are Sting-big, so I think it's actually pretty likely there'll be no Feyd in movie one (or, possibly, if they go all Marvel, a post-credits stinger with him. ;-))

If they take the film up to Paul taking his Fremen name so that they can close with a 'the legend begins' moment and start film 2 with 'two years later' then they could get away with minimal to no Feyd.

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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Mulva posted:

I mean the central message of Dune is that humanity shouldn't be beholden to the idea of "Great men" to save them, and that our salvation comes from diversity and exploration. So, you know, sure. Why not? gently caress Star Wars.

Also he's playing an actual character who represents things in the story and has depth and actual relationships to the other characters.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

u brexit ukip it posted:

Given the Sardaukar's origins I don't think that guy is supposed to be specifically representative though. They are the survivors of the imperial prison colonies, so it seems unlikely that they are of one particular race or culture

The loose analogy is that they're German 'military advisors' to the Ottoman Empire helping them to fight Laurence of Arabia.

e: also the Sardukar being Space Marines would be missing the point. Herbert is very openly saying in the book 'good soldiers aren't heroic or noble, the most fearsome soldier would be someone who's been traumatised from birth by an environment that's trying to kill them, because that's how you end up with someone utterly ruthless and indifferent to death, and that's what a 'good' soldier is'.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Sep 10, 2020

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

thats not candy posted:

totally, the first book hits on a lot of YA themes and its probably why its like the most popular and best selling sci fi novel. I first read it when I was 14 or 15 and it instantly became my favorite of all time. Surpassed only by children and god emperor, both of which also have young adults as protagonists coming to age.

Hope the movie does well enough we get messiah and children sequels. As mediocre as the scifi miniseries were, at least they tried. Not sure we'll ever see god emperor just due to the absurd nightmare fuel of letoworm but i can dream.

I absolutely read it first when I was 14 or 15 and thought it was a decent if slightly weird at times space fantasy epic, and then when I came back to it at 18-19 I had the 'ooh, Spice is oil' moment and realised why it's had such a long life.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Strom Cuzewon posted:

There's also the bit where one of the guild representatives (maybe a navigator?) at the end loses a contact lens and tries to cover up his blue eye, which in isolation feels like a big twist reveal.

Its a plot point that I'm not entirely convinced by, because the implication is that The Guild has been buying enormous amounts of spice since forever but nobody has ever noticed or asked what for.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Payndz posted:

Ha, I'd completely forgotten that in the Lynch film, ultra-badass fan fave Duncan Idaho (played by, um, the national security advisor from The Hunt For Red October? Yeah, I didn't recognise him either) appears in like three scenes and is merked by some random Harkonnen soldier in five seconds flat.

Duncan Idaho is Syrio Forel except the author didn't have the will to leave him dead.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

I always imagined that as meaning humans fighting robots, even if those robots were controlled by other humans. I don't think Frank Herbert ever really said did he?

The quote in the book is:

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

I don't think the original books say anything about what happens between that moment and the rule 'don't make machines that can think like people you idiots' coming into force, but it fits the themes of the series more closely if the Jihad is about people who tried to stifle humanity's freedom in aid of some grand design rather than it being the Terminator Wars.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I don't think 'men tried to use machines to dominate others, it all got out of hand and the machines tried to take over' is inconsistent with the vision (really the main thing is that Herbert just wants to clear advanced computers and the implications out of his setting), but not having the Jihad be a struggle against stagnation and 'programming' of people really missed the point of what this story is about.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

For what it's worth, I think the primary thematic point of the Butlerian Jihad is that humanity rejects thinking machines because they make people unnecessary, not because humans were enslaved or they were trying to exterminate humanity. I think both are perfectly reasonable 'fictional histories' of events in the Universe, with 'machines decided we were unnecessary, tried to kill everyone' being my personal take.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

So I think both things we're talking about can be true (as long as you ignore Brian's books).

Regardless of how the machines came about, the literal events of the Jihad in the fictional history of Dune probably look like Terminator. Sentient machines are made and they cause an event so traumatic that humanity scours the whole galaxy of them and then literally rewrites the Bible so that the first commandment is 'don't make AI'. That didn't happen because space-Zuckerberg was sending uncomfortably good targeted advertising.

This clears AI from the deck of the setting, but thematically the irony is important as well - the proponents of the Jihad thought they were freeing humanity but in reality they were setting up another control system. I don't think Leto scoffs at the fear of AI because AI isn't a threat, he scoffs because he's omniscient and he knows that the much bigger problem is that out of all possible futures there's only one that doesn't result in one form of control and threat being replaced with another and humanity's inevitable extinction.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The whole notion of 'canon' is bullshit, Frank Herbert is a guy who wrote some books and I'm interested in discussing what he had to say in those books. What someone else decided to do with the setting is irrelevant.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The Ixians keep their research into thinking machines secret because they know that it becoming public knowledge would get them all killed. That's how much Bulterlian thinking has permeated humanity at the point of the books.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Everyone in this universe is a massive hypocrite and there is a huge difference between what everyone knows everyone else is up to and what is public knowledge about what everyone is up to. The reason everyone is engaged in this masquerade is because if these things became public truths then people would be compelled to act.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I would genuinely like to know if there's any actual academic school of artistic interpretation that considers 'canon' to be a real thing (other than where films are expressly assuming that you are familiar with other work a-la Rogue One) or if it's just an invention of fandom.

Bonus points if it turns out the origin of the term is mocking the tendency of fandom to have religious reverence for the object of their attention.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

You can make Dune pretty action heavy if you want.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Hasselblad posted:

The odd part is that the Harkonens footed the bill for the party, to the tune of 60 years of spice production to pay for it.


Long game. The Baron is setting up his nephew to be the next Baron and doesn't really intend to honour the deal.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

On one level the story of Dune is the story of a shadow power struggle between the Guild and the Bene Gesserit that gets way out of hand

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The whole setup of the story is that the Harkonnens, the Emperor, the Guild, and a bunch of aligned major houses have been massively stockpiling Spice in anticipation of an interruption in supply. That's how the Atreides know that Dune is a trap.

A temporary interruption is fine. It's the permanent destruction of production that's the crucial threat.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

No Mods No Masters posted:

Ehrlich's review is about as mean as could conceivably be but my gut feeling is it gets at some hard truths about the whole project. Guess we'll have to see

Yeah, 'nobody does anything, but also nobody really spends any time agonising over political intrigue' is a bit of a warning bell.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Here are the two things you need to know about Shang Chi:

1. Shang Chi is a man who does not know who he is. It turns out he is a man with ten rings.
2. The Marvel films are going to find it increasingly difficult to explain why their plots need to happen while they have a bunch of wizards running around who can make portals that let you instantly go anywhere.

e: seriously though, it was... fine.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Hodgepodge posted:

I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude.

The 'love conquers all' recurring motif does feel a little surface level in comparison to all the other themes of the books.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

To be fair to Leto he absolutely knows that Arrakis is a trap and that it represents the Emperor moving against him, he just thinks the trap is that he is being set up to fail to deliver on the spice quotas and be discredited amongst the nobility, not that the Emperor, Harkonnen and the Guild are going to conspire together to drop an army on him.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

You can definitely read Dune as story of a guy being aware he's being cynically set up to be a white saviour and then deciding to earnestly go along with it.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Remember also the Empire is not actually internally peaceful. There is a ritual official form of house warfare that everyone is familiar with, and the Atreides and Harkonnen feud isn't just them disliking each other, prior to the book's beginning they've been actively raiding and sabotaging and kidnapping/murdering each other.

The Guild have a system where they are integral to the economy and are fabulously wealthy, have direct access to the Emperor any time they want and can issue him directives, and are not victims of the constant violence and intrigue that is the result of this unstable system. They're also all hopeless spice addicts - I'm not sure they are ever portrayed as wanting anything other than the security of access to literal mountains of spice so they can go fold space and be one with the universe.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

It also makes sense that they would culturally stick to the 'one safe path through the future' given that's how they do the space travel trick.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

SHISHKABOB posted:

Aren't the guild and the bene gesserit sort of both in on the kwizats haderach thing? Or am I misremembering.

Yes and no - in Paul's meeting the with the BG on Calandan there's a bit of an exposition dump where it's revealed that the BG and the Guild have both been dedicated for thousands of years on developing human potential the BG on politics/human manipulation and the Guild on being so good at maths that you can beat the uncertainty principle.

Both organisations are using spice to heighten their consciousness and the Guild Navigators have a limited form of prescience to do their thing - that prescience also makes them 'aware' of Paul's special nature because his existence is a huge cloud over the future.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

galagazombie posted:

It’s not like they would be the ones actually mining it and getting chased by worms. That’s what the peasants are for. Plus if you want to keep your spice supply flowing letting your political rivals control it is the least safe thing you can do.


They are addicts and their behaviour is driven by the addiction, not by lust for power or anything else. As long as they get to continue swimming in big tanks of spice and they see a future where they get to continue swimming in big vats of spice then they are happy to get high. Their sole concern when Paul threatens to usurp the Emperor is that he is a risk to their spice flow, and him escalating that risk to an outright threat is enough to flip the guild instantly.

The metaphor isn't particularly difficult, Herbert is demonstrating how the developed world's reliance on oil means that monied interests will lobby governments to ensure there is a steady supply of the stuff.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

phasmid posted:

He's right. I'm glad whenever directors point this out. The only rebuttal from the mickey mouse club is "Well, then why come it make so much moneyzz>??"

The real rebuttal is 'you are making a film of a book that has been made into a film twice before'.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Prolonged Panorama posted:

There's also the heavy implication that them working on a navigator is preventing or diverting resources from the work that would lead to the out-of-control humanity-ending killing machines Siona sees in her vision.

Yeah whatever the Butlerian Jihad was about, it's textual that one possible future of the Dune universe is extinction by Terminator War, and Herbert explicitly links that to the risks of breaking the prohibition on AI.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

RestingB1tchFace posted:

A FULL MONTH BEFORE THE US RELEASE!? WHAT THE gently caress!?

Seriously....is this common practice? For a movie this big? I've read the book multiple times.....but based on some of the spoiler tags (which I haven't read).....there might be some unique swings. For someone who hasn't read it....is it good for spoilers to be flowing for a entire month prior to release? Or are the folks making the decisions looking at it as....."who gives a gently caress because it's going to be free on HBO Max"?

The decline of a superpower comes at you fast I guess

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I'll say again, if you only show the first half of the book then that looks an awfully lot like an unironic white saviour story. Hell, outside of Paul's internal doubts (not unusual for a white saviour) it's only really in Children of Dune that the reader gets a recap of events since the end of the book 1 that says outright "the Jihad was not a good thing also the Fremen are not happy with the new order of things"

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Jewmanji posted:

He literally calls himself work than Hitler in Messiah

I mixed up Messiah and Children - regardless, it's the second book where this stuff really comes ou.t

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Saw it this afternoon, really liked it.

A film adaptation of a book as dense as Dune is will never capture everything, so I think its perfectly fine for Villeneuve to have focused on the elements that make it a deconstruction of the Call to Adventure.

I particularly liked how over the course of the film he subtly lines up a series of secondary characters who all experience a call to adventure (with terrible consequences), all culminating in Paul's decision.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I really, really like how the film explains things and the choices made; things included from the book, things left out, new things or things brought forward. Like how there are two moments where Villeneuve just has no choice but to exposition dump on us and it's done via Paul literally watching an educational tape. Nobody ever just says something out loud that all the characters in the room would already know.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Also at this point in the story his prescience isn't perfect, which is why he's only seeing flashes.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Polo-Rican posted:

I thought this was really bad. Somehow, despite taking 2h30m for only half of the first book, it feels woefully incomplete and thin. The story ends at a weird point that's supposed to mark a turning point for Paul, but which barely works in the larger arc of the film. And so many worldbuilding details are left out... Important ones that make the characters and plot richer. I understand why you don't want to infodump science fiction world-building factoids on your audience, but let's face it, the books never had an amazing plot... they mainly just present a series of complex conspiracies and prophecies within a richly detailed world. If you're just trying to present the events of the story and skipping the details, Dune is pretty dull!

It's an entire film dedicated to exploring the first step of the monomyth: 'what does it mean to accept the call to adventure?'

Multiple times throughout the film we are shown that answering the call to adventure has terrible consequences - and I don't mean Paul's visions, I mean we see a series of supporting characters answer the call and have it end badly for them, although they may or may not achieve their objective. The climax of the film is Paul accepting the call even though he has seen exactly where it lead and what the terrible consequences will be.

In what it sets out to do the film is a complete story.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

If this speaks to Dune II managing to make Frank Herberts point about heroic characters saliently, I think it might possibly have a chance of being the best movie ever made.

The climax of this film is a duel where Paul has to kill someone. This is also the climax of the end of the complete story. In both duels Paul hesitates to do all he can to kill his opponent but for very different reasons. I don't think the specific end point was an accident and I suspect the plan for part 2 involves a fair bit of mirroring.


Also they should cast Iain McDiramid as the Emperor.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Seph posted:

I read the books a while ago so I might be off base here, but I remember the Voice being more of a subtle intimidation / psychological manipulation thing, but in the movies it's portrayed as literal mind control. Am I just misremembering or did the movie change the way the Voice works?

The scene in the ornithopter is I think pretty much exactly as it plays out in the book. I interpret it as a psychological trick that slips your command in between the victim's conscious mind and their unconscious muscle nerve control - more body control than mind control (which is the Bene Gesserit thing they've spent thousands of years on - perfect understanding and control of body muscle and nerves).

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Shifter posted:

Context that is useless to the film. Everything you need to know about Sardaukar for the film plot is covered. If you know the book lore you get hints of the context you hint at, but it’s not necessary.

Also this is all stuff that is rapidly exposition dumped in the very last few pages of the book. Paul drops this knowledge as well as 'the guild uses spice for space travel' revelation as the explanation for how he's going to control the universe at the end of the story - by having the Guild under his thumb and by making sure nobody has a planet with the conditions that they can use to build a super-army.

But in a film you can't do this. You've got to explain why spice is the most important thing ever right at the start, all we need to know about the Sardaukar is that the Emperor has a planet of hardcore vikings ready to fight for him.

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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Roadie posted:

One of the bits that really struck me was the palace on Caladan having no artificial lighting at all, just those floating light drones. It struck me as actually making perfect sense when engineering for truly absurd timescales given the tech level: instead of running wiring that's going to be guaranteed to be outdated in a hundred or five hundred years, you just put anything big and electrical on a floating platform that follows people around.

One of the things that struck me afterwards was zero mention of atomics. I think that was a really good move and the mere suggestion that at the end of the day these far-future guys rely on old-fashioned nukes as the ultimate weapon would have completely ruined the theme of their technology being incomprehensibly advanced and different to anything we know. Also why I very much disagree with complaints that we didn't get more exposition dumping on how everything in this setting works - it's utterly unimportant for the story and would have ruined the atmosphere.

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