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Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



I'm about halfway through the third book and it feels like the first one in the series that's actually well written. I do like Herbert's style but the first two make no particular effort to make his jargon and abstract style approachable to general audiences.

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Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Something that's been bugging me slightly as I read God Emperor of Dune:

There are allusions to Leto having memories of dying in battle, but shouldn't his genetic memories only include each life up to the point when that past self's child was born? That is, shouldn't he have no memories whatsoever of dying? That's how it's explained in Children of Dune, that they inherited Paul's consciousness up to the moment they were born. Maybe I'm just reading too much into something he says, but it feels like a big blind spot in his awareness. I actually think it would be interesting if his personality were more explicitly informed by having inherited the memories of so many young people specifically.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play




The glowing review is encouraging, but man, I hope the actors in the movie pronounce things more consistently than this guy does

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



galagazombie posted:

“I could effortlessly seize complete and total power over all existence and no one can stop me, but I won’t.” Is something no powerful political power has ever said in human history.

But what would they get from ruling directly that the status quo doesn't already provide? Their culture revolves around access to spice, which they have an endless supply of already, and prior to the events of Dune they're the only power in the galaxy that no one threatens at all. Overreaching would put a big target on their backs while providing no particular benefit

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Subbing to HBO Max for 2 months to boost those DUNC numbers, and probably also to watch the movie several times

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Lamps are specifically outlawed following the Butlerian Jihad. Low wattage glowglobes are pushing it

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



It's probably fine that the last 15 years of poptimism coincided with rapid media consolidation, entrenched wealth inequality, and our political culture backsliding into fascism. Just a weird coincidence! I like the Marvel movies fine but I really feel like the people who are genuinely committed to them and moved by them are probably rubes to a certain extent.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



I think it's easy to assume there are computers in the universe because they have some advanced technologies and engineering, but I believe they're all made using simple machines and electronic devices, that's it

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



flashy_mcflash posted:

the spoilers must flow

Brian Herbert's Golden Path is to deprive humanity of Dune spoilers by writing lovely books no one cares about

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Baron von Eevl posted:

Following in his father's footsteps!

N--no!!! :mods:

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



John Harrison, who wrote and directed the miniseries, is an executive producer on DUNC :eng101:

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Vincent posted:

God Emperor Of Dune: In this one, Idaho sucks.
I may be misremembering something from Children, but why would Leto II care so much about Duncan? It's not like he had a relationship with him like Paul did. Stilgar being constantly ghola'd would make more sense for him.

Leto inherited Paul's consciousness so I think it stands to reason that he'd also be fond of him.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Hodgepodge posted:

poo poo. Did they also make Malky I think it was? I like how Leto II basically hangs out with people designed to kill him by major power blocks and/or himself.

I don't remember any suggestion that Malky is anything but a regular Ixian. But it's revealed that Hwi is a clone of Malky, given hormones in utero to make her female. This ends up breaking Moneo, and to a certain extent, Leto.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Steve Yun posted:

Kinda weird, isn’t Star Trek the antithesis of libertarian

Never underestimate people's ability to completely misunderstand the (sub)text of a thing they enjoy, I suppose

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Hodgepodge posted:

i'll save myself the trouble of looking it up and assume it's both more nuanced than that and yet also still exactly that gross

The only nuance, I think, is whether you choose to believe that Herbert wants the reader to agree with Leto, or if you're meant to be critical of his supposed wisdom. It's a few paragraphs of really concentrated virulent homophobia.

Yadoppsi posted:

As a queer man myself I was never that bothered by those parts in God Emperor- if Herbert asked a mainstream psychologist from the 60's "whats up with homosexuality? What causes it?" Academic opinion of the time wouldn't be much different from what he wrote.

This is a fair point but if it matters at all God Emperor was published in 1981. Still a homophobic time but the gay rights movement had begun by that point and Herbert was almost certainly aware of it as a social identity and not just a pathology

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



"Is Leto II A Volcel" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Saw it last night and loved it. Overall I was pretty impressed with how successful they were at distilling the politicking and world building down to its most essential elements, without beating the audience over the head or relying on a single character to deliverer all the exposition.

I reread the first book and continued on through God Emperor this last year, so it's probably impossible for me to view it outside of that context, but my wife has never read them and she really liked it too. Really hoping we get more weirdness and opulence in the second book (gladiatorial combat please!).

On the one hand it definitely feels like it would have been served well by splitting it into three parts rather than two. The first third could be everything up to Leto's assassination, which would give it even more time to breathe, more time on Arrakis before the attack, and so on. But on the other hand it the studio would probably never go for that, and that second movie would really drag for audiences who haven't read the books, and I don't know how much more exposition and detail general audiences could take in that first movie.

Cutting the story where they did makes a certain amount of sense, since killing Jamis is the fulcrum for Paul's entire trajectory going forward. The visions Paul had about Jamis teaching him to be a Fremen legitimately made me think they were going to change it to have Paul refuse to kill him or something Hollywoody like that. I was glad they stuck to the story as it was originally written.

The movie was incredibly loud in the theater, to great effect. The Voice was well done, especially in the loud theater. I'm glad they didn't bother explaining things like the Baron's suspensors and just let it be weird.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



I appreciated that the movie shows all the Atreides acting a bit more human. They're stoic, unrelatable weirdos in the book and Herbert relies a little too much on other characters more or less telling the reader that they're good people.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Lakedaimon posted:


But what is still weird to me is that even though this movie only covers half the book and runs over 2 and a half hours, it still felt like things rushed along too fast.

This is from the last page, but I wanted to point out that part one (the movie) covers more than half the book, and that first half is much more exposition- and jargon-heavy than the second half. The second part should have plenty of exposition of what Fremen society is like, and hopefully more off world stuff, but with the overall universe established I expect it to have much more room for characters themselves to breathe.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



porfiria posted:

This isn't really in the movie at all but how are smugglers supposed to work in the Dune-iverse? Is the idea that they sneak onto Guild ships or sneak contraband cargo onto above board shipments?

Pretty sure they just pay the Spacing Guild to transport them and keep quiet. The Guild is very powerful and not really afraid of pissing off the Emperor

Edit: in fact I believe there's something in the first book about passengers on Guild heighliners not being allowed to walk around and see anything outside their own ships. So presumably the Guild doesn't even have to do much to conceal smuggled ships or cargo

Cognac McCarthy fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Oct 24, 2021

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



stratdax posted:

For how important spice supposedly is we don't really see why. Spice's connection to space travel - and space travel's lack of computers - is almost non-existent in the movie. I bet most people didn't pick up on the fact that the atreides didn't just fly to arrakis themselves.

In one of the first scenes the lesson Paul is listening to says it's what makes interstellar travel possible. I'm sure we'll get more in the sequel, especially at the end when Paul threatens to destroy the spice when confronting the emperor

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Looking forward to 2UNC, and if it does really well, DU3C

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



My friends who haven't read the book liked the movie, and also they said I was very handsome and charming

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Simplex posted:

If the movie was depicting Feudalism rather than a Roman/Byzantine political system then maybe. In this system the nobility would expect some warfare and murder between houses, but the Harkonnens retaking Arrakis is a direct challenge to the authority of the Emperor. It only happens with the blessing of the Emperor, or if the Emperor is weak.

But from the emperor's perspective, being perceived as relatively weak in the eyes of noble houses suits his ends just fine. His goal is to off the upstart Atreides without his involvement being known. "The Harkonnens did it and I couldn't stop them" accomplishes this just fine, and has the bonus effect of potentially pitting many other houses against the Baron.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



In the book the Atreides are definitely portrayed as very cold and almost entirely unemotional, they're just not sadistic or cruel. They're noble and honest but entirely serious and unrelatable. There's more familial warmth in the movie than in the entire book, I believe

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Rabelais D posted:

Quick question: did anyone say the word "melange" at all in the film? I don't remember hearing it.

Doesn't the little inforeel Paul watches at the beginning mention that it's an alternate name for spice?

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



I think the way the empire in Star Wars is spread really thin and couldn't exert direct control over every planet is one of the things that makes the universe interesting. The best stories in Star Wars to me have always been those that make it clear that the state (whichever one it is at the time) is exceptionally weak, and most people simply do not care who's running things really. Space fascism endures because most people are broke and most planets are really provincial.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



:siren: Toilet Dune :siren:
https://youtu.be/kxkLaxC8nsQ

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Her version would have scrubbed the colonialist stuff...but she was fired because she's not woke enough... especially the way she posed for a photo with a copy of The Communist Manifesto? I like that one album of hers but God drat she seems like a moron

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



The spice must flow, buuuuuuddy

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



I think it's good to have both characters. Rabban has all of the Baron's brutal sadism but none of his cunning. Feyd is important for showing that the Harkonnens aren't all bloodthirsty morons, and can't just be outschemed by anybody with half a brain like a lot of schlocky movie villains

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



Strom Cuzewon posted:

I like to to think that Ix might be pluto too. Mostly because it's small, lovely, and number 9.

This has always been my assumption as well, though on the other hand it seems less likely that they would have forgotten their identity if they were that close to Earth

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Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play



https://mobile.twitter.com/deadline/status/1524804391299072000?s=21&t=B0Y45V8XczDVoBEMWW567g

Did anyone guess Walken?

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