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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



My biggest gripe about the previous adaptations are how weirdly hostile all the Atreides folk are to Paul. Thufir is properly angry with Paul for sitting with his back to the door, Gurney is mortally offended at Paul not being in the mood for sword fighting etc. But these are the most loyal and dedicated Atreides followers, probably the most loyal in the galaxy. You disrespect the Duke and Gurney will knock your teeth out before Leto even has a chance to be offended.

Yeah, there was some tension in those scenes in the book, but it felt more like a friendly teacher winding up a precocious kid to make a point. Basically I want the first twenty minutes to be a massive bro-fest so that there's some actual emotional impact when things start to fall apart.

Also I really want an extended sequence of Kynes' mad visions in the desert, arguing with his dead dad about ecology.


Neo Rasa posted:

I hate that the Lynch version lacks so much cool poo poo and characterization but the part where (most of the dialogue at least is from the book) the baron finishes talking about the plan building up to screaming "IT IS I! BARON VLADIMIR HARKKONEN, WHO ENCOMPASSES HIS DOOM!!!" before ripping out that dude's heart plug and feeding on him and then floats around laughing maniacally for like a minute straight as prog organ music is blasting is loving amazing. :perfect:

I'm actually hoping for a much more restrained Baron. My favourite bit in the book is where he's getting pissed with Feyd for getting carried away with his dasterdly plots. "now, rape and murder are all good fun, but don't let that get in the way of actually achieving glorious revenge. Now, as punishment, I'm gonna make you strangle your favourite concubine"

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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



MonsieurChoc posted:

That's probably my favourite scene in the books and I want it so bad.

While I'm doing PYF Little Moments in Dune, I really want the scenes of Jamis' wife and kids being weirdly okay with his death. Yeah, it sucks, dude shouldn't have picked a fight, why would they blame Paul? Such a great nugget of Fremen psychology.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



habituallyred posted:

Maybe it was the years of hype, but it seemed to me that the whole book was actually building up to a joke. All the little chapter headers are great, and most of them are from hagiographies written by the princess that Paul marries at the end of the book. But at the end of the book Paul says something like, 'I heard Princess [name] likes history. I hope its true, because she is getting the contractual minimum from me.' Just a really weird disconnect from the reputation the book has.

I kinda hope they flesh out Irulan a bit more. She has a pretty cool arc over the trilogy - especially when she gets cold feet about treason and ends up being one of Leto IIs most fervent supporters.

You could do an interesting feminist analysis of Irulan and Harah over the trilogy. It feels very Le Guin - patriarchy has forced this women into the role of wives and political playing pieces, but instead of trying to overturn the whole system they carve out a little chunk of space where they have respect and control.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Only spice and water of life are sandworm juice. The others are space-red bull, space-PCP, space-opium, space-sodium pentathol, and uh.... space-CJD

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Mulva posted:

Also the dude needed to stop trying to make Duncan Idaho happen.

I think by the last books his relevance was he was immune to the antagonists magic gently caress powers or some poo poo. Like why is this nobody that never accomplished anything in thousands and thousands of years of clones still showing up in the future?

It's been years and years since I read em, but don't the later books imply that the Tleilaxu were mucking about with the thousands of years worth of clone cells they had from him? Or is that only in the KJA abominations?

I do like how mundane Idaho is. He's just a chill dude, and every godlike superhuman needs a chill dude to be chill with.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Messiah is where we get most of the cool stuff on prescience, religious fanatacism, and Paul losing control of the forces he unleashes. Which is what Herbert and his fans tend to describe as "the point" of Dune.

Except its not in Dune. Its in Messiah. If you hear about this things and only read Dune you're gonna be dissapointed. It's like telling a joke without the punchline.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Jewmanji posted:

Thatís not true. Thereís probably a half dozen times in Dune where the jihad is invoked and Paul realizes heís powerless to stop it. Messiah definitely addresses it more head on, but itís mentioned as early as Paulís first meeting with Stilgar in Sietch Tabr

I wasn't counting that, cos it's entirely prediction/prescience. None of the jihad going awry really had any emotional impact on me until Messiah.

Schwarzwald posted:

Aside from being a measuring stick for how much things have changed between books, the joke with the character is that he's supposedly a one-of-a-kind bad rear end knife fighter and that fact is never relevant. In Dune he's gets to be cool for a hot second before being shot. In Messiah, he's only useful to anyone because Paul liked the guy when he was alive the first time. In Children, he provokes a fight, which would be the thing he's good at, only to purposefully get himself killed to provoke a political situation. In the later books, he's useful primarily because he's been cloned enough that he's become a well understood template human.

He's supposedly this exemplar of human skill but he is always someone else's tool.

Edit: I probably should have spoilered this.

I just remembered that Idaho tries to take down Moneo, and this 60 year old bureaucrat completely clowns on him without breaking a sweat.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



feedmyleg posted:

Nuh-uh, I've seen Star Wars. Every planet has one environment.

Dune. Arrakis. Desert planet

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010




I'm digging the stillsuit design. They look a lot more like practical survival gear than Lynch's. Although I'm not sure why they need a second set of knuckles.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



I actually like the armour - it's a nice mix of futuristic body armour with slightly more classical looking shoulders/gorgets, with a nice undercurrent of jackbooted thug.

The plain black uniforms are pretty bland,ngl. In an ideal world they'd have given it to Tarsem Singh to go nuts with, but i guess he was too busy making a dark and gritty reboot of the Wizard of Oz.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Neo Rasa posted:

I mean yeah no poo poo but I'm talking about how the characters are dressed and what Herbert has that say about them or not in the book.


The way Duke Leto is portrayed in this way is one of the really cool things in the book to me. You totally see the charisma he has and how on the surface he's this super popular leader to the point where even the Emperor is directly concerned. But at the same time you don't get to the point where an emperor is concerned about you taking over by not being a huge rear end in a top hat on some levels, and I liked the little bits that get dropped as the story goes on like how it was the Duke who declared the vendetta against the Harkonnens, and how he had a small group in his army that were as well trained as the Sardaukar which he could potentially have united the other houses under,, etc. And I like that the minute he sets foot on Arrakis he's already making moves to be a man of the people while backdoor working to get the Fremen in his pocket or otherwise allied with him any way he can.

And both the Duke and the Baron are equally effective in that way, I forget if it's in a flashback in a later book or the original but there's definitely a point where Leto points out (or "thinks aloud") that the Baron's a master schemer and the floating around loud fat man thing is an effective way to get people to underestimate him and dismiss him as a bloviating chump. And to an extent, the Baron IS an egomaniac, but it says a lot about Leto's man of the people facade that that's how he immediately sees the Baron, but also drinks his own Kool-Aid and fails to work out what's going on with Yueh.

Another small bit I love is when the Baron's mulling over anecdotes about Leto keeping the head of the bull that killed his ancestor and stuff and has an almost serial killer profiler light bulb flicks on kind of moment where he gets shaken about what kind of lunatics the Atreides are.

There's also the great bit where Leto is talking about how spice-plastic is really good for film stock, and that propoganda is really important to make sure everybody knows how caring and just the Atreides are. And how the constant low level of spice in the food prevents them from putting drugs or poison in the water supply. He jokes how Arrakis keeps them honest and noble.

Or at least, you really hope that he's joking.

It reminds me of one of the Culture books. One of the Minds (super powerful friendly AIs running the show) uncovers a potential evil conspiracy by other Minds, and goes into a complete meltdown at the idea that the only reason Minds are fun-loving omnibenovelant super-friends is because it works. They've never needed to be otherwise. Their morals might be entirely pragmatic, which makes them almost worthless.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Seemlar posted:

The Weirding Modules were a very simple and easily explained power only the Atreidies and later Fremen could have compared to a martial art based around a persons control of the muscles in their body being so absolute that they could move and strike inhumanly fast

I'm not sure the 1984 version of moving like Neo in the Matrix would have come out looking especially good. It didn't even look good in 2000 in the miniseries.

The miniseries doubly sucked because it was all showy and flashy. Real Bene Gesserit/Fedyakeen kung-fu should be quick and brutal, not running round as vague blur.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Xealot posted:

Right? I didnít realize peopleís reception to it was so lukewarm. I thought it was great, really playful with the setting, basically the closest thing to a modern-day Roger Rabbit Iíve seen in years.


I watched it for the first time yesterday, and I thought the pokemon designs and background appearanches was really well done. Stuff like the casual Snorlax blocking the road, or the sulky jigglypuff in the bar. But the movie felt so flat and lifeless.

There's that scene where our hero is rescued by a tribe of bulbasaurs and floating glowing bulb...things. It's meant to be a scene of wonder and natural beauty, as these strange magical creatures come to save the day. But instead we get the camera lazily following him as he trudges down a river.

And when the pokemon had to actually interact with the people it was really clear that there wasn't actually anything there.

The Ditto fight was pretty cool though, and I wish they'd developed him more as a villain. Who is this pokemon, and why are they such a piece of poo poo?

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Neo Rasa posted:

If there's sequels Stephen Seagal should play that Tleilaxu priest/lord/whatever dude that spends like an entire chapter securing/preparing sick rear end tactical super poison darts that are at an exact temperature to be concealed in a hidden wrist gun that can get past security but he still fucks up.

Isn't it a really dumb rookie mistake too? Like he keeps fidgeting and pointing his sleeve at the BGs?

I just want a film adapation that embraces the Tleilaxu love of dumb nursery rhymes

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



C-Euro posted:

The pre-chapter texts are some of my favorite parts of the book, and I hope they find some way to incorporate them into the movie.

Taglines on all the character posters.

Edit: Freezeframe anime intros.

Strom Cuzewon fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Jun 12, 2020

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Payndz posted:


[Montage of character names superimposed Michael Bay-style on stylised freeze-frames. Whoomp, PAUL! Whoomp, LETO! Whoomp, DUNCAN! Whoomp, GURNEY!]]

They could take inspiration from that bit in Suicide Squad.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Ingmar terdman posted:

Definitely a few times in book 3. Probably gurney and someone else, all internal monologue

The little snippets of side-characters reacting to the slowly-unfolding disaster that is Paul, and all their little meditations, are some of my favourite bits in the whole series. Stuff like Stilgar's anxiety at the start of Children about how he could totally kill Leto and Ghanima in their beds, the Fremen warrior's tale about seeing a sea for the first time, it's all great stuff. Especially in the later books, where we get stuff like Odrade having no way to figure out if current events are part of Leto's Golden Path, or if things have gone way off the rails

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



I want to see Tarsem Singh do some big budget high concept sci fi. Not necessarily Dune, but something definitely Dune-esque.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Old Kentucky Shark posted:

I feel like the stillsuits and the Fremen look fine, but the point of the Fremen is that they are an insanely parsimonious, hyper-utilitarian culture forced to live an incredibly ascetic existence in order to survive on the least-habitable habitable planet in the entire galaxy. The problem is that it seems like they've designed the rest of the movie so as not to conflict with the design of the still-suits, when the whole idea behind the stillsuits is that they are an aberrant alien accommodation to the stark world of Arrakis.

The Landsraad Houses live in absurd Kleptocratic hyper-luxury, even the relatively minimalist Atreides. They're supposed to be a pointed contrast to the Fremen, not look only slightly different.

The sietchs are pretty swanky inside - Jessica remarks that Fremen live better in sietches than people in towns. It's part of the weird Fremen focus and drive - they don't really need to go all hyper-utilitarian, sietches are pretty much self contained, they could just chill in there. But they do it anyway, because they all believe so deeply in a green Arrakis.

Also I imagine they love rugs so much because its a hobby you can do without using loads of water.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



It does look kinda grey and washed out a lot, yeah.

But:
I like the carving and the callback to the Atreides ancestors, which suggests they're leaning into all the noble houses trying to claim lineage back to Agememnon and co.
Paul's opening dialogue and his demeanour throughout half the trailer feel very horror movie, so hopefully they're gonna do a lot with his slowly dawning horror as he becomes the KH - his panic-attack in the sand-tent is one of my favourite scenes of the novel.

These are two big Dune-y things that the other adaptations really missed, so to see em front and centre in the trailer like this...I'm pumped.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



exquisite tea posted:

Timothee Chalamet is one incredibly hot dude. Got drat.

Everyone in this movie is. It's like The CW on a budget.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



There's also the bit where one of the guild representatives (maybe a navigator?) at the end loses a contact lens and tries to cover up his blue eye, which in isolation feels like a big twist reveal.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



MikeJF posted:

It'll be at the very end of Part I, won't it?

I wonder if they're going to just call the next one Dune Part II or give it a subtitle.

(Well, it won't be part II, fancy movies call it Volume II or Chapter II these days)

It really annoyed me how the first It movie kept changing, from It, to It - Part 1: The Losers Club (which is a great subtitle) and then retroactively became It Chapter One. They knew they were doing two movies! How hard is it to come up with sensible names?

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Capntastic posted:

Fremen view Titanic as a comedy

In that dinner scene the Fremen struggle to understand the concept of fishermen and drowning. Titanic would be a nightmarish eldritch horror to them.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



The Brian Herbert novels have someone stumble on the corpses of some BGs that the HMs have tortured to death, even though there was a sizable plot thread in Heretics about how you can't do that.

Also Scytale entertains baby-Baron by farting, which is a result of his weird and unclean Tleilaxu biology. Even though the Tleilaxu are fastidiously clean, and just spread the myth of their weird and unclean behaviours to gently caress with people.

So on a basic plot level they clearly missed some of what was going on, which doesn't speak well to them grasping any of his themes and ideas.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Schwarzwald posted:

Calling Dune a basic hero's journey, while not false per se, feels like a disservice to Dune and the hero's journey both

He has two descents into the underworld, it's very different.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



I hope the film keeps the best scene in the book: Duke Leto faking documents to cheat on his taxes after murdering a bunch of Harkonnen loyalists.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Isn't Ix basically a bureucratic nightmare straight of Brazil when we see it in Heretics/Chapterhouse?

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



loving hell, Stilgar, your mask goes over your mouth.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Payndz posted:

Odds that the two "pause the trailer to give the audience a chance to laugh" quips are the only jokes in the entire movie?

One thing that really stuck out to me in the Lynch movie was how hostile the Atreides right-hand men were at times - Thufir sounded absolutely furious at Paul suggesting he could recognise the sounds he made. They're all supposed to be on edge at the start, but at times it felt like these incredibly loyal and dedicated men didn't even like the Atreides or each other. So I'm glad there's some comradely humour going on.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Hashtag Banterzone posted:

After watching the trailer, I'm curious to see which plot/thematic changes are in the actual movie and which are just being shown in the trailer to give audiences a simplified idea of the story


Is house Atreides actually being sent to bring peace to Arrakis or is that just what Duke Leto says to make it sound more noble than "run it efficiently so the emperor makes more money"?
How much will Villenueve lean into the Fremen fighting their oppressors narrative?
Paul telling the Duke he might not able to lead House Atreides, is that just part of his fear of his terrible purpose, or is that a new subplot?


I figure the "bring peace to Arrakis" is just them actually giving a reason for the Atreides to be on Arrakis. Because I swear the book doesn't actually give a public justification for the Emperor giving them Arrakis. It's just "oh we're moving to Dune now". And we know, and they know, that it's because he wants to betray the gently caress out of them, but obviously the Emperor can't come out and say that.

It could also be a way to simplify the background space-politics - we can establish that the Emperor's rule isn't doing great, and that the Atreides are a respected military power, which obviously becomes really important later on.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Neo Rasa posted:

Yeah Herbert definitely took a lot from this, and even from the first book you'll see him describe Fremen as wearing green outfits during various spiritual matters/ceremoney like when in mourning/etc.

I really hope we get the scene where Jamis' kids are uncomfortably okay with Paul murdering their Dad. Such a great look at Fremen psychology.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Blockading Arrakis or otherwise loving with the spice would make the guild an absolutely massive target for no benefit. They're very happy with the status quo - theyre enormously powerful, and the entire ruling class of the galaxy accepts their existence as inevitable, none of them would dream of openly challenging the guild.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Hasselblad posted:

A target you say?
Who would attack the species that makes it possible to jump through space? I mean...how exactly would one do that?

Shake their fist at the heavens?

Call them dicks and when they land stick a potato in their exhaust port

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



DarkSol posted:

I guess in that case, since it's apparently genetics, all it takes is the right gene to be expressed and exposure to the spice and the Water of Life(?), and presto! Anyone could theoretically have the powers of prescience and the ability to channel their genetic memories?

Yeah, and in Messiah/Children there's loads of tarot cults popping up, and I think the low-level prescience among the Fremen to gently caress with Paul's visions.

Other Memory requires some form of Spice Agony though, but those terms don't get thrown around as much in the early books.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



sean10mm posted:

poo poo, Herbert hammers home the point that Paul being "one of the good ones" has almost no bearing on how it all plays out except at the margins, the "good guy" white savior imperialist protagonist kills billions anyway. Like we literally read Paul's thoughts where just just says it to the reader.

Herbert wasn't subtle, he just literally has all the poo poo I said happen in the first 2 books or something. Herbert was 1 step away from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk7M2jGdnxU

The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it.

Conclusion: Dune Messiah should have been part of Dune.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Lord Krangdar posted:

Its not a white savior story because there is no savior at all. Paul and Jessica are acting for their own interests, and using the Fremen. That is made very clear in the first book, yes, even though the full consequences are explored more later in the series.

I guess, yeah. I'd still like to have seen the book explore it more from the Fremen perspective than it does. Especially as the few bits of that we do get are some of my favourite bits in the series - Chani freaking out about Paul in the spice orgy, Stilgar contemplating killing the twins, that Fremen fighter who gets his mind blown by an ocean, Darwi not knowing if humanity had escaped letos prescience etc. . I find people reacting to the superman way more compelling than the superman himself.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Questions for people that have seen it -
How well does it handle Paul's mentat/prescient awakening? The scenes in the trailer with the Reverend Mother looked like something out of a horror movie, which gave me hope.

And, how is my boy Jamis?

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Failed Imagineer posted:

:ironicat: aside, where does this "copy-paste" thing come from? The movie doesn't seem at all like any previous adaptations. I know, I'm overthinking fake bot reviews

It's because Villaneuve accused (some) Marvel movies of being cut-and-paste.

It's like Scorcesee calling them theme-park rides - I like and enjoy Marvel, but it's a pretty accurate summary.

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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Arglebargle III posted:

You can kinda see the Cold War in Dune, in that the Harkonnen are nakedly abusive while the Atreides use propaganda and pageantry to cloak virtually the same abuses in heroism.

This is my favourite little detail in the Spice Miner scene - the Duke spots the worm, and he and Gurney immediately spin it into a propaganda victory about how much he cares about the lives of his men. But he does also care, and gets genuinely angry about it. Which if anything, makes it even more cynical that the Atreides go to great lengths to tell everyone how noble they are.

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