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phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Would never have had Alien without A.E. van Vogt.

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phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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DarkSol posted:

I wish he would publish copies of that giant Dune tome that he has. I know that a lot of his treatment turned into The Incal, but I'm sure there are significant differences between the two.

Watching Jodo's Dune I think a lot of people had the same feeling. There had to be so much other cool poo poo in there besides Foss and Moebius (who are great). Although his Dune probably would have been too hallucinogenic for its own good, I *loved* the storyboard of the movie's opening (which concludes with a blue cloud of pure spice seeping out of the wreckage of a smuggler ship).

The thought I had most reading the Incal was "drat, that would look great in a movie".

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Cacator posted:

You could just watch The Fifth Element.

Or Heavy Metal.


But nah, the Incal books had a lot more stuff in em.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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C-Euro posted:

The pre-chapter texts are some of my favorite parts of the book, and I hope they find some way to incorporate them into the movie.

No. This is not a good idea and it would be incorporated poorly.

I'm sure we'll get to see it in @duneauthor's Showtime bullshit or whatever.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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The Leto II awareness inside the worms is mostly dormant. Only Sheeana (and maybe later the B.G.) can talk to the Leto part.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Eason the Fifth posted:

Herbert's quote about that -- "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero" -- was always the theme of the series to me. He spent Dune building up Paul, the Atreides, and the Fremen, and then spent the next three books breaking them down and showing just how terrible heroes and their followers can be even when their intentions are good. I get that the first novel is a perfect hero's journey and I get why people loved it, but I also get why a lot of the same audience bounced hard off the rest of Frank Herbert's part of the series. All the unpalatable reasons are what make it unique and good but they're also why it's so unlikely that we'll see anything past the first book.

This post sums it up, I think. People like a "happy" "ending" and Dune has neither - especially if you read all six books. If they decide to continue the story, it'll probably get handed off to second-rate people who don't know the material except that "kids sure seem to like this Dune thing, even though it's just a knock-off Star Wars". So we'll get some real crap amid a few good things, probably. But not in theaters.

david_a posted:

I'm re-reading The Dosadi Experiment and so far it's living up to my memories of it being extremely dense (but short!). It feels like a tangent on the evolution of the Sardukar (none of Frank's books get into much detail about Salusa Secundus, do they?). This time around I've also read The Whipping Star which helps with some of the references to alien species & tech, but that book had a pretty goofy antagonist. This seems to be one of his better regarded non-Dune books; are there others that people would recommend?

Hellstrom's Hive, The Godmakers, and if you can find it The Tactful Saboteur is pretty short but it's the first story about Jorj McKie. There's also The White Plague, which is a pretty good book about the Troubles in Ireland (still very fictional, though).

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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PeterWeller posted:

So you're saying they'll just use the poo poo from Brian Herbert and KJA's books.

Sadly, yeah. That too. They're already doing one about the BG which is going to bring the lack of understanding material into clear focus.

PeterWeller posted:

If you read all six books, it doesn't really have an ending at all.

All things considered, maybe that was the best way to go.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Jewmanji posted:

I beg to disagree that the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu were engineering a Kwisatz Haderach to altruistically save the universe. It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

You're kidding about the altruism part, right?

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Jewmanji posted:

I think you misread my post. Iím saying that the BG and BT specifically donít have altruistic motives and are obviously horrifically insular cults whose prime directive is to preserve their power at all costs.

My bad.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Duwu

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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And Charlotte Gainsbourg as Jessica.

Yknow, we do already have Stellan Skarsgard...

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Grendels Dad posted:

Is it too early to remake Game of Thrones as a sci fi trilogy?

So a trilogy that traces the fortunes of feudal families in a space setting?

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Also I don't really like the idea of having named characters take the role of background chars. They do that poo poo in Star Wars all the time. The universe is gigantic (even in the fuuutuuuuure) but somehow everybody knows everybody and have stories about hanging out with them. Everybody has Boba Fett on speed dial. Everyone's got a story of being held in an Imperial jail. Everybody goes to the Hutt's 4th of Julyabooba parties. It makes the universe seem smaller, not bigger.

It would be one thing if it were coincidental but letting writers and directors take the easy way out is p much how you get everybody getting advice from Melisandre or Dexxter Jettster.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

its a universe where the closest helicopter analogue is a plane that flaps its wings like a loving bird, there isn't gently caress-all in Dune that's supposed to be grounded or familiar.

Agreed. The story doesn't lend itself to any type of architecture or anything, it's supposed to be weird, loose and groovy. After all, it's been translated into so many languages, trying to say any one style fits it is a bit unimaginative imo. Pinning it down with begats is a good way to get into GOT territory.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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As I said in the other thread, I don't think they'll get rid of the religious element altogether, especially since Islam (or rather a fusion of Islam and Buddhism) is intrinsic to the Fremen character. It's the source of their power and mystique. Though I wouldn't shy from them using the word "jihad" I can see why they might not.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Starks posted:

Back in the day sci fi writers just took foreign words and customs to make their worlds seem "alien". Obviously this is looked down on, especially when it maps 1:1 to a specific culture. Star Wars is especially bad for that. I do think Dune does it a lot more respectfully but it's just a risk you don't want to take these days.

Why is taking it on a "risk" necessarily? I think thematically it works because Herbert himself said that Dune had a lot of metaphor. Making the Fremen Christian for instance would feel completely off, because the Empire doesn't represent the Roman Empire as much as the American.

e. Like, the story in the fist book (sociopolitically) is mostly just a big critique of colonialism

phasmid fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 10, 2020

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Starks posted:

I totally agree, and the word Jihad specifically is fine IMO because it's an english word as well now. I do think that all the fake arabic and hebrew words in the book can trigger a backlash and accusations of either appropriation or xenophobia. The fact that there are no actual muslim actors in the main cast won't help. But then again they let Star Wars 9 have a bunch of dancing african aliens so maybe I'm overestimating hollywood studios' fears of getting cancelled.

Personally, I hope they keep enough of the religious aspect to make sense of the thing. It would be hard explaining the prophecy without the uniquely Fremen perspective. And although people might be annoyed that none of the leads are actually Muslim, you don't have to be a Scot to play MacBeth either.

All I can say of Star Wars is that it will forever be an homage to old pulp comics, so the racism is kinda just baked in.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Counterpoint: Herbert is a good author and if people find him mundane it might just be that he's been imitated so much by the sf/fantasy crowd.

He wrote a lot of good non-Dune stuff too. But as always, I think people don't much like his later stuff because the Paul story continues into dark territory (cosmic fatalism, genocide, etc.) If that's the case, they're reading the first Dune book all wrong. Paul isn't a hero, he just plays one on tv.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Gonna commit Dune sacrilege here by stating that Duncan Idaho is not that important of a character.

Don't come at me about the Scattering.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Cacator posted:

Can't wait for the Funko Pop Sandworm.

is nothing sacred

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Jason Mamoa dying halfway through the movie is going to have people upset. Then nerds gonna be

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Ingmar terdman posted:

Jesus christ marie it's spice

lol

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Does Todd not do the sculpts anymore?

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Kull Wahad.

You don't beer bong the water of life, you male.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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well why not posted:

COVID hasn't hit that hard here, wish they'd release it where cinemas are open.

People's dismissal of the virus just downright baffles me. Everyone's got some reason why it won't effect them and life should just continue as such. A bunch of high ranking people in the US government just got COVID and still people are saying nonsense like this.

"Please please can I have a big room where a bunch of people can just plop down and sit for a few hours and do nothing but respire? I saw the trailer on my tiny-rear end phone and I can't go back to that."

Grandpa Palpatine posted:

Very upset to have to wait almost an entire year to see this. God drat the pandemic just keeps getting bleaker and bleaker.

I've heard it said that we're "gonna get through this together".

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Krazyface posted:

I don't think wellwhynot is saying "no-one I know has it so it's not real", they're saying that the pandemic has ended in their country. How is Trump getting sick relevant to that?

I didn't know the poster's point of origin, which is why I specified where I'm coming from. I don't know where the lines are where places are "free of COVID" and "not free of COVID". "Pandemic" spells it all out imo.

The reason it makes me mad is that you can't visit dying loved ones in the hospital and I've lost two in the last month. Regardless of what country they live in, it's comparable because we didn't used to have a problem with the virus where I am either. And once enough people had pointed that out, everyone got really carefree and loose about it. Now we have a lot of cases.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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In short, it's just a movie. Please don't risk your or others' health for a couple of hours of entertainment.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Hard to fizzle when there's no interest.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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nvm misread the post

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Alien 3 is proof that David Fincher is a better director than Scotty Riddle.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Grandpa Palpatine posted:

i thought no one liked alien 3 better than aliens other than me



Bugblatter posted:

Well, he didn’t say Fincher is better than Cameron. So he might not.

For clarification, Fincher is better than Cameron also.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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[

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

i like Alien 3 better than like 95% of this subforum and even i wouldn't go that far

it's only the second-best Alien movie after Prometheus, after all

I didn't know I could twist my neck in two directions simultaneously...

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Thing is, I wouldn't want to include Prometheus at all. It's so far removed from the original movies I don't see why they didn't make it it's own thing (I know, yeah, brand recognition). But despite them using some of Giger's stuff - and a bit of Beksinski's imo - it still doesn't feel much like the other stories even though they put Weyland in as an anchor point.
Honestly, doing that whole "ancient aliens" thing is so schlocky to me. What's the point of all the cosmic dread, not knowing what's out in space when the movie goes "oh, look, they've been with us the whole time!" That makes the movie smaller and it gets close to being Star Wars where the galaxy is just a field of muppets to provide backdrop to the same twelve characters.

Basically the movie went from "what is out there?" to "why are we here?" which seems like a dumb pivot. Leave the existential stuff to von Trier, please.



e. Going to add that I didn't see anything after Prometheus so if the story somehow improved and did something surprising, well. I'd be surprised lol

phasmid fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 10, 2020

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Hashtag Banterzone posted:

I came up with the machines needing humans to fold space, which made me wish for an alternative timeline where the machines crushed the Butlerian Jihad

The Jihad was against "machine thinking", not robot armies.


e. vvv Yeah, the Animatrix is better than the Matrix, I agree.

phasmid fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Nov 11, 2020

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Schwarzwald posted:

One of the more interesting ideas in the Dune Encyclopedia was that the big failing of pre-Butlerian society was over-centralization. Human's had occupied an incredibly vast array of space, but were dependent on individual super computers (and communication with those super computers) to handle space travel. When the Jihad took them out, extraplanetary civilization collapsed.

It suggests a different interpretation of "machine thinking" and Leto's motives: concern of an over reliance on singular technologies and institutions which must eventually fail.

Absolutely. I'm sure a lot of people would mistake it for primitivism, but he's just saying that eventually you'll have people who can't do anything without an app to help them. Kinda like that Asimov short story where everyone forgets how to do simple math.

A short while ago we were talking in the GBS Dune thread about Leto's rationale and aside from him wanting to keep people from backsliding into machine thinking there was also a danger over over-orderding society to the point where humans' ambitions would be eclipsed by the new machines they were building, the "trap of prescience".

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Wow, had to catch up to the last page. A lot of good points.

However, if we're going to bring God Emperor into the mix (written about 20 years later, Herbert might've rethought some stuff) we also have to point out that Leto's reaction to A.I. is that it's hogwash. He is visibly amused that the Bene Gesserit are afraid of the possibilities of "computers with human minds". Maybe this indicates that the machines of the past were not so advanced as all that (sometime truth-teller Piter de Vries called them "toys"). Even if they weren't roombas and drones, who's to say that the "conscious robots" were physical antagonists? Maybe they were in charge of planning and made mistakes (per the Dune Encyclopedia). Maybe they were cyborg augmentations with drawbacks that humans had to rid themselves of with social pressures, not excluding war?

To be honest, it always seemed like Herbert wasn't totally committed to the idea one way or another (the part about Siona running from seeking machines bugged me, because it didn't sound like he was trying to evoke hunter-seekers). Maybe as PeterWeller says they're mainly a plot device to springboard human potential.

Here's about where I am on the Jihad:

Not to get political (lol) but we see right now in our world people who get all their news from a single source. That's debilitating. They also interact with their media in a lot of ways. So to extrapolate: Now you've got a "house bulter" (lol unintentional) that cooks your eggs, tells you the humidity, wipes your rear end. It feeds you incalculable amounts of data and picks up plenty too. The time before the Jihad is basically "what if your robobutler gets hacked?" But on most populated planets instead of just one household.



But one thing that's inarguable, the son completely missed the point of the thing to make a campy Star Wars knockoff with - of all things - a Star Wars knockoff careerist.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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ITT Getting gulled by a pair of hack writers because "they found some hidden notes!"

Just like every con artist that ever wrote or started a cult.

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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Libluini posted:

Even funnier: Groovelord Neato thinking because he doesn't like something it must obviously mean it does not exist. That's a level of mental disfunction that's amazing! Do you think he will start or join a cult soon?

All I'm getting here is that you enjoyed the books. Individual choice, obviously, but most people who like Dune like it for reasons beyond pew-pew laser fights and giant robot punch action time. The son's books are basically ghost-written by his co-author, an ordinary claim that I can easily back up by pointing to every other thing that guy has written and comparing the continuation.

There is no "canon". There are the six books written by Frank Herbert. Why bother talking about some inferior pulp which only gets peoples' attention because it has the word "Dune" in it?

phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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My own opinion is that people who like the EU probably like the scenery more than the substance. But you need both for a good novel.

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phasmid
Jan 16, 2015

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MrL_JaKiri posted:

Standard mid 80s 5 1/4 inch floppies could hold 360kb, which could hold the entire text of any of the books except the first. Text isn't big.

Yeah but even if his notes were organized and well-fleshed, I wouldn't trust those two to interpret it correctly. If it's about space men in leotards fighting with swords, that's it to them. If it's something about machines being a danger, then it's terminators. Let people say what they want about the weird sex stuff with Frank but those guys are probably at the level of "he was touching her boobs, both of them! and she was panting and calling him 'hot rod Dunc' and he suddenly stopped and asked how she knew Duncan #1375 had been a podracer, then she pulled of her face and she was a sexy terminator! he grabbed her butt, it was good."


e. They probably won't release the notes for the same reason they won't re-release the Encyclopedia: they'd make some money, but it would underscore how lovely and rote their own work* is.


* Honestly feels like they could churn them out at one a month. I mean first draft all the way to print. A lot of science fiction authors give me the impression that all they do is sit at a screen and pet their cat for most of their "work day". But I guess that's what you get when there's more people writing science fiction than reading it.

phasmid fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Nov 19, 2020

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