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Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Also, Jodorowksy's Dune gave us Alien*, while the Dune novels ultimately gave us Star Wars. It's an interesting property because on the whole it's inaccessible and unwieldy, but littered aspects of the story or settings found their way into tons of great poo poo.

(* H.R. Giger was brought in during pre-pro to do visual design for Giedi Prime and the Harkonnens, and those Hollywood in-roads are what eventually connected him to Ridley Scott.)

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Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



MonsieurChoc posted:

It gave Incal which in turn gave us the Metabarons as one of many spinoffs Get your order of events right!

And the Incal gave us The Fifth Element. What I'm saying is, Dune has weirded its way into all manner of poo poo and people have no idea.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



AlternateAccount posted:

This is the best of all ideas.

For real. I want this very badly. And I feel like we're owed one, since the universe took David Bowie from us before he could play Niander Wallace in BR2049.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Bug Squash posted:

I think the idea of Wallace is excellent by itself though. An intelligent man that's entirely bought into his own hype, and living in the shadow of actual genius. He reflects our current reality of insecure tech bros acting like messiahs. A better actor could really have brought the emotional fragility of that existence to life.

Yeah, on the page, the character makes sense. He's a hyperbolic take on a tech bro billionaire, a "visionary" capitalist who's arrogant to the point he believes he's a god. Leto handles that aspect...fine, I guess. But there's no subtlety or nuance in it, he's all bluster and menace and grandiosity.

The thought I had leaving the movie was how much better it'd be if Wallace had, like, a false warmth to him. If he felt paternal or empathic but then did the violent, hosed-up stuff he does. Ironically, the actor that came to mind when I imagined that version of the character was Stellan Skarsgård. I guess I'm getting my Villeneuve / Skarsgård fix this year.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Which is kind of what Star Wars is in all aspects. Random bits shamelessly sliced off other properties, blended into a more accessible form for a mass audience. It's Dune, but also it's a western and a WW2 dogfight movie and a samurai movie and a fantasy epic. With some Ben Hur and a little bit of Triumph of the Will and a little John Carter of Mars. It's pure pastiche, and nakedly so.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



cptn_dr posted:

This but from The Lighthouse

"Let Shai Hulud strike ye dead, Feyd-Rautha! HAAARK!!!"

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Jewmanji posted:

Dune also presents as an epic, optimistic fantasy tale, which is more palatable than a dreary, cynical detective film.

I think it stands a better chance than BR2049, but Villeneuve is a very restrained and considered director regardless of the content. I'm very sure it'll be good, but can 100% see a mass audience rejecting it as too slow or pretentious or not fun enough or whatever.

Dune has a ton of marketable qualities based on the story alone. There's all the used future and space magic poo poo Star Wars copied, and there are Houses like in Game of Thrones, and superhuman martial arts stuff like The Matrix, and Poe Dameron and Khal Drogo and Thanos and Drax and Zendaya are all there...like, there's a garbage version of this story created by JJ Abrams that'd probably do pretty well. But we're getting the Villeneuve version, so it'll be beautiful and well-made and take the themes and characters seriously and actually be cinematic, and also maybe nobody will care and it'll be a $200M flop.

...I'm realizing how thoroughly the post-2016 political situation has crushed my dreams and made me cynical. I want to believe but reality keeps disappointing me.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Kassad posted:

I don't see anything wrong with these costumes but I do hope members of the imperial court have insanely elaborate costumes (if we see them in this film). They're literally decadent nobility constantly reminding everyone else that they're better than them.

Yeah, I do too.

House Atreides should have a totally clean, anodyne look to them, though. They need to look upscale and "modern" to contrast with the Fremen, whose styles are very worn and utilitarian, but they also need to look restrained and humble vs. the extreme decadence of the other Houses. Tailored blacks and greys with simple lines accomplishes that goal: they'll appear cold and technocratic to the Fremen, but plain and unimpressive to people like the Harkonnen.

It's the Harkonnens or Shaddam IV who need to go balls-out on costume design. An obese pedophile in a hover-harness who lives on a BDSM planet can pretty much look as crazy as they want. Like, they need to go full Space Caligula with it.


If i was going to complain about something, it's that I don't understand why the still-suits are black in this version, too. Their goal is to offset the extreme heat and dryness of the deep desert, and to make the wearer blend into their surroundings. Shouldn't they be a lighter color, white to reflect more sunlight or tan to look like part of the landscape? A more earth-tone look would also serve the story's themes, painting the Fremen as these extensions of the planet's ecology, and making Paul's shift from a pale vampire in black to a tan desert ninja way more visually striking.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



u brexit ukip it posted:

And yet Irulan shows up at the Atreides banquet!

I don’t think giving Irulan stuff to do was a mistake. The miniseries managed to make her an actual character, which was nice.

The screenplay is a pretty solid adaptation all around; it’s way better than the Lynch film in that sense. Too bad every other aspect of it showed off the nothing budget and B- casting.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



C-Euro posted:

Detective Pikachu motherfuckers

Right? I didn’t realize people’s reception to it was so lukewarm. I thought it was great, really playful with the setting, basically the closest thing to a modern-day Roger Rabbit I’ve seen in years.


I watched Assassin’s Creed and was struck by how utterly flavorless it felt. There are so many cool elements - the Spain scenes, the parkour, the sense-memory poo poo - but then they throw us into a grey psych ward for like half the runtime and drone exposition at us. It was such a boring approach to a non-boring premise.

It should’ve had so much more fun with the craziness of that setting. I have similar complaints for Max Payne: an excellent and stylish game adapted into the most boring and lifeless movie possible.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Strom Cuzewon posted:

I watched it for the first time yesterday, and I thought the pokemon designs and background appearanches was really well done. Stuff like the casual Snorlax blocking the road, or the sulky jigglypuff in the bar. But the movie felt so flat and lifeless.

I'll agree that the world-building was cooler and more interesting than the pretty by-the-numbers investigation plot, but I still liked it all around. I think my favorite moment was the underground fight club with the Loudred backing the DJ. There was a real grasp of the mechanics of this city full of Pokemon, which ones would have which jobs, how they'd intersect with civic life in official and unofficial ways. It was clever. Maybe my expectations were just that low, and I was pleasantly surprised when it surpassed them.


This thread is rapidly deviating from a conversation about D U N C. Does anyone know anything about the music? I loving loved what Hans Zimmer and Benjamin Wallfisch did for BR2049, though I don't know if the latter is involved with this one. I'm guessing no Toto guitar riffs on top of an orchestra, either.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



david_a posted:

I’m sure it would have been an “experience” no matter what but I don’t think Jodorowsky actually had the skills to direct a movie like that.

I don’t think skill or lack of skill would’ve had anything to do with it. The Holy Mountain is hardly some small, manageable indie...it’s really huge and ambitious, just also very strange and off-putting. He’d have succeeded at making Dune the way he wanted, it’d just be a weird and alienating take on the story.

I’d honestly prefer a graphic novel. All his Dune energy went into The Incal anyway...might as well stick with that medium, where Orson Welles or Salvador Dali can still show up.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



AFewBricksShy posted:

He also worked on the show Emerald City, which apparently existed, but I've got no recollection of it at all.

I watched it. It was...trying to be something, for sure. The plotting was going for a Game of Thrones thing (there were rival kingdoms and special factions with clashing internal goals and a complex political order built around magical fantasy elements), but it was rendered in an aesthetic like...well, a TV version of The Fall. None of it was in a particularly good way, if my point is unclear.

Between that and Self/Less, I don't think my expectations would be very high for any new Tarsem projects. But for sure, The Cell and The Fall are intensely great-looking, so we all still have those.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



David D. Davidson posted:

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that Indiana Jones' nane is ment as a tribute to the character.

I’ve never heard this, but I have heard that Indiana was factually the name of an Alaskan Malamute that George Lucas had. (The character’s name was originally Indiana Smith before they changed it to Jones.)

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Roman Reigns posted:

Ugh I'm coming to terms that this movie won't be very profitable and that we're not getting a sequel because of this damned plague

Sucks balls, man :(

At least more people are picking up the book, apparently

I assumed that might've happened because Villeneuve makes slow, beautiful movies that lovely general audiences don't respond to. After BR2049, I was shocked they let him make this.

Though even the most obtuse studio execs have to realize that *nothing* is going to do well in theaters amidst a pandemic, right? Like, "Luke Skywalker Joins the Avengers" wouldn't earn poo poo when most of the country is terrified of dying in a movie theater. If studios aren't grading success on a curve in the current environment, it goes beyond "cutthroat capitalism" to "run by a poorly-programmed AI."

"Release D2NE or we start a Butlerian Jihad against Warner Bros," is what I'm saying.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



CelticPredator posted:

They’re already making DUNC costumes wow



“The Imperium runs on the spice melange. America runs on Dunkin.”

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Zartosht posted:

They'd hire the failson probably.

Disney's The Butlerian Crusade, written and directed by Brian Herbert.

I think their MO these days is to shortlist a dozen or so indie feature directors from festival circuits, pick the one that's most useful for virtue-signaling on a given project, then strong-arm that person into creating the exact product they wanted to make in the first place as they offload all the action scenes to an in-house second-unit.

Brian Herbert would get like a Producer credit, I guess.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



WarMECH posted:

...or a life-sized Little Maker I can drown in the bathtub to make my own Water of Life.

You could probably accomplish something similar by purchasing 50 tabs of LSD off the dark web, then drowning a pet python in your bathtub just as the tabs hit.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



david_a posted:

I don’t know if I prefer have a Part 1 with no conclusion or no new Dune at all.

Yeah, that would suck so hard.

Even if there is a Dune Part 2, it'll probably be years before we see it. Which might be ok, since the story cutoff might be a natural time jump of Paul fully embedded within the Fremen. But seriously, goddamn if they just don't make the second half.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Arglebargle III posted:

if your body has bones that means you're a skeleton

Taking your bodily existence as a whole, most people are skeletons far longer than they are anything else. So, generally speaking...

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



The Baron is basically Caligula in that regard, but yeah, there's not really a line dividing his homosexuality from his pedophilia, or a line dividing his sadism from his sexuality generally...so, it's not looking good.

In general, Dune has a pretty clear moral argument about hedonism or decadence which you could logically apply to his thoughts on sexuality. It seems like sexuality is only good when it's connected to lineage or reproduction, when it has some utility beyond the personal. Characters who actually get off on things or enjoy bodily experience are typically bad guys, but anyone please jump in with a counterexample if you can think of one. Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness.


"Is Leto right?" seems like a fair semantic debate, but yeah not really one Frank Herbert intended people to have, I'm sure. But who cares? Have the debate. Herbert was, in fact, a human author and not an omniscient worm-king with esoteric knowledge.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I didn't remember that. Did the orgies get gay?

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



phasmid posted:

I don't think Frank Booth is gay so much as a batshit-crazy rapist.

Yes. Frank Booth seems like a sexual sadist whose only turn-on is power or inflicted pain. The implication he’d rape Jeffrey was probably more about that than “gayness” in any definable way, which is a trait I think he shares with BOB from Twin Peaks (who is implied to have molested Leland Palmer as a child in Fire Walk with Me, and who obviously raped and murdered Laura.)

How David Lynch feels about queer identities is an interesting question, because he definitely codes characters that way and depicts gay or trans people, and not always as villainous or bad. But there’s a LOT of implied or literal gay rape across his filmography.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I'd watch the gently caress out of an animated Incal. Though also, John Difool is a pretty insufferable protagonist. Deepo is the real MVP. And the Metabaron is cool...I'm in it for them and the jellyfish ocean planet. And the guy with a German shepherd's head. Really everyone but the lead, I think.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



deoju posted:

I watched the first episode of SciFi Channel miniseries out of curiosity the a while ago. Surprisingly, its not completely poo poo. Some of the art design is pretty good in a Star-Trek-DS9-with-a-higher-budget way, and William Hurt does his best to elevate the level of performances. I'm baffled by the choice to cast a 25 year old with a receding hairline as a teenage Paul though.

It's a pretty good script and a bad everything else. I guess some of the costuming is wild in a good way, but mostly it's trying really goddamn hard but doesn't have the money or acting talent to achieve its ambitions.

I remember it as a very good adaptation of the book, though. Compared to the nonsense in the Lynch version, it's shockingly coherent and very economical. It even makes some changes that I think are better than the source (mostly, giving Irulan something to do so she's an actual character, and providing some context to the wider nobility beyond House Atreides and Harkonnen.) But still, some truly rough effects work and some real C-tier performances drag it all down.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I get it, but I honestly cannot imagine them using “jihad” in this movie in 2021. The politics surrounding the term make it a lose-lose to include it, while “crusade” is 99% of the way there without particularly offending anyone.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I seriously doubt this Villeneuve movie about space royalty fighting a war over cosmic LSD on a desert planet is going to be boring looking.

Arrakis looking like a colorless scorched void serves Paul’s POV in the beginning of the book. But you have a lot of other poo poo - inside the Sietch, the royal palace, Arrakeen, Geidi Prime, Caladan, and just literally the acid nightmares Paul and Jessica experience - that will hopefully look pretty awesome.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Schwarzwald posted:

I'm not saying I want him ugly, but at the moment he looks like the designated hetero romance from a circa 2010 YA novel film adaptation.

Sure, but if any character justifies an absurdly beautiful coat rack of an actor, it's Paul Atreides: he's a golden-boy princeling with a handsome good guy father and a famously beautiful mother. He's supposed to come off as really fragile against the harshness of Arrakis, and the Muad'dib thing (literally "desert mouse") speaks to him being slight and unassuming. You're supposed to find him kind of delicate until it turns out he's extremely capable and resilient; a central flaw in the Baron's plan is underestimating him based on assumption, which kind of makes sense with the boy band casting. Fortunately, Chalamet is a pretty good actor on top of that.

If they manage a Part 2, I'm very interested in how they envision Feyd. He tends to come off as an evil Paul, but the Harkonnens are especially inhuman looking in this version and they could do some weird poo poo with it. I feel like a creepy pale Bill Skarsgård would be fun WRT the Baron.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Exactly, it's a religious order with a magical comprehension of causality, literal psychic powers, working over centuries to extrapolate out the genetic consequences of different pairings far into the future. They're kind of the opposite of the Habsburgs.

In general, Dune is a setting full of magi-science cloners and autistic computer-men who can do differential calculus in their heads. They can fold spacetime to travel faster than light. I feel like they've sorted how to breed out hemophilia.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Schwarzwald posted:

Honestly, yes, that's the most likely outcome. I've made peace.

I haven't. I'm still going to be pissed.

And yeah, I think Jewmanji has a point. For all the similarities between this and BR2049, there are also plenty of differences. The cast is way more of a selling point (I think Momoa, Chalamet, Zendaya, and Oscar Isaac all have their own fanbases), and the broad plot of it is way more action-y and accessible than Blade Runner. Describing it as a Star Wars-esque YA fantasy isn't actually wrong. And I think Game of Thrones did this story a real solid by making war between feudal Houses palatable to popular tastes.

The first Dune book isn't that weird in 2021. I'm not saying it'll earn Marvel money, but I'm not yet resigned to never getting Part 2.

KaptainKrunk posted:

The "problem" with Dune (not a big deal to me but I see the argument) is the lack of contrast in design between the imperial houses and Dune itself. Their costuming is not at all extravagant, having more of a utilitarian edge. Everything fits together, but it would have been more daring to up the ante and go for it design wise.

I get it, but I'm still not convinced this will be a problem. House Atreides dresses simply, but that feels appropriate for who they are: not extravagant, fairly humble, tailored but ultimately human. The Fremen wear way more textural earth tones, natural-looking scarves and cloaks, which to my eye *does* contrast with the kind of clean, tailored look Paul has at first. Eventually they all start dressing like the Fremen, pragmatically because of the stillsuits but also thematically because that's the plot.

Of course, House Harkonnen looks very distinct...they're a bunch of severe, hairless vampire people in cold BDSM leather. And then there were the people in all blinding white in the new trailer, who I assume were Spacing Guild? Which would also make sense: they're wealthy profiteers whose official policy is to keep their hands clean in feudal matters. Having them dress like ostentatious clergy serves that thought pretty well, if that's who they're supposed to be.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I imagine a lot, there's obviously a ton of plot similarity between it and Dune.

Though also, blues and greens figure into a lot of Islamic art, and I could see that being at least partially because those colors contrast with the natural environment in much of the Arabian peninsula. Mosques and other institutions becoming these blue/green oases makes a ton of sense for religious purposes; these colors otherwise evoke lush plant life or the sky itself. There'd be something transformative about those spaces, and something eye-catching about people wearing garments or accessories in those colors. I could easily see that developing mystical or holy associations in Islam going forward, and that feels like the kind of visual detail Frank Herbert would've run with when writing these books.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I've used many aspects of Game of Thrones to explain Dune to people. It's efficient; they're insanely similar stories.

"The Harkonnens are like if the Lannisters and the Boltons were the same guys."
"Mentats and Suk doctors are basically Maesters who serve specific Houses."
"Leto is Ned Stark. Paul is basically if Robb, Jon, and Bran all merged into one character."
"The Fremen are like desert wildlings. Chani is Ygritte."
"Beast Rabban is The Mountain. Feyd is Ramsay. Piter is Qyburn. The Baron is like if Tywin was also Jabba the Hutt."

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



RestingB1tchFace posted:

Is it still a secret of who's playing Feyd in the movie?

Lil Nas X.

Actually that’d rule, I’d watch that. (My money’s on Bill Skarsgard, but I doubt he’s even in Part 1 so actually nobody.)

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



PeterWeller posted:

Recall too that Count Fenring "was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern—a eunuch," which seems to imply that the BG didn't see the KH as the end result of their breeding program, but yet another step along it. They're gonna want to breed their KH to make backups.

Was that in the original Dune novel? I don't remember those details.

Though I guess Jodorowsky really ran with the idea...in his adaptation, wasn't Leto supposed to be a eunuch, and Paul is some miracle baby conceived through blood?

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Automatic Slim posted:

Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults.

That won't stop people from posting that the movie does. Villeneuve gives a good answer on that though.

This is pretty much what will happen. I'm sure Villeneuve will set the stage for all of these critiques the books eventually embrace, while people inclined to read the movie uncharitably will ignore all of that and push a bad faith take because outrage is easy.

I've gotten into similar arguments about The Last Samurai or Last of the Mohicans, which people also identify as "white savior" stories even though the actual point of both of those movies isn't that.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Is the Baron still a bloated, sadistic pedophile in a repulsor-lift Baby Bjorn? Because yeah, the premise is pretty ridiculous.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Noob Saibot posted:

What species is that spider thing? Is it from the books? What does it do?

Doesn't exist, but it's likely intended to be some weird poo poo cooked up by the Tlielaxu. Bene Tlielax is a creepy, isolationist group of technologists whose economy is based on unnerving bio-engineered poo poo they make for other Houses. Piter de Vries is also from there, a "twisted mentat" the Baron ordered because I guess normal mentats didn't fit his "I live in a TOOL video" vibe.

I guess the BDSM spider was an add-on customer loyalty incentive, "free latex spider-gimp after 10th purchase of evil mentat."

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



I'm good with it. Denis Villeneuve has time to process what worked or didn't in the first one, and Paul will authentically look a little bit older by the time they film it. The time jump is pretty organic to the story at this point, so I'm seeing it as a benefit.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Halloween Jack posted:

I just wonder how many people praising the film ITT haven't read any of the books? Because I saw it with someone who hasn't read any of the books nor seen any of the previous adaptations, and they had the same reaction a lot of people had to the Lynch movie: this is total nonsense and I don't understand what's happening or why.

I went with my wife, who hadn't read any of the books or watched any of the movies, and she understood it fine. Villeneuve didn't show the Baron raping young boys or explain what the spider-gimp was, but she managed to piece together that the grotesquely fat, hairless man from the BDSM planet was evil in a Marquis de Sade kind of way.

Halloween Jack posted:

I like the part where Paul says he'd rather have a song than a fight from Gurney, and it makes no sense because there is no context to know that Gurney Halleck is a bard. Lots of little things like that.

Likewise this: they don't show Gurney playing the baliset, but you don't need particular context to understand Paul's comment as expository. Gurney is a stern badass warrior-man, but also he has other facets. He likes to sing sometimes, has a relationship with Paul that isn't purely antagonistic. That line and Paul's general demeanor in the scene speak to that, but if you read it a different way, it doesn't really matter.

These kinds of complaints always feel so Marvel-y. "The film leaves space for ambiguity of meaning, and that's bad!" I like the way Denis handled the world-building, because the alternative is to explain everything in the text and bring the story to a screeching halt. The key plot makes perfect sense, so the unexplained strangeness of small details feels like an asset to me. The mentats with their weird white eyes or the Spacing Guild with their orange fishbowl helmets make the world feel lived-in and complex, whether you understand what they're about or not.

I think Fury Road is a master class in this. That movie barely explains anything, assaulting you with intense, evocative imagery, but the emotional beats and the general plot stakes still come across fine, so the experience of the movie doesn't suffer for it.

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Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Hodgepodge posted:

One of the biggest changes from the books and first film, iirc, is that the characters aren't already spice addicts with glowing blue eyes. Basically, everyone should be a spice addict.

Not everyone has glowing blue eyes. Everyone in the aristocracy is some level of addicted, but the Fremen are literally exposed to Spice 24/7 from living in the desert. It's the difference between doing key bumps at parties on Kaitain some weekends, and living in a cocaine world where you are constantly breathing in some amount of cocaine every second.

I'm pretty sure the only people more immersed in Spice are Guild Navigators, who do it by design.

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