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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Leto canít hold a candle to Bowie, needless to say, but I do think casting a kind of wormy guy who evinces a type of Thiel-esque technofascism was helpful for the role. I think it works that Wallace basically comes off as a rich kid rather than an insane genius, like Bowie mightíve.

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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


All of the realpolitik and palace intrigue was saved for the prequels. The trade federation is basically just CHOAM, the senate is the Landsraad etc.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Feyd and Rabban will have to be consolidated, just like Duncan/Thufir/Gurney, I suspect.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


WarMECH posted:

Rabban and Feyd serve entirely different purposes in the story that wouldn't make any sense.

And actors for Duncan/Thufir/Gurney have all been cast already so they are definitely 3 separate characters.

Yes but when you adapt things you often have to dramatically simplify them. Rabban and Feyd are each fairly minor presences in the book, despite their important to the overall plot. With four hours of film itíll be very difficult to justify all of these characters existences

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


God Emperor is so weird. It blows my mind that itís many peopleís favorite entry. I admit the whole golden path thing went totally over my head at the end so that was a bit deflating, but Letoís extemporizing gets so so so tiresome, especially when you know that itís all sort of bland platitudes. Itís also real weird to have the book be almost entirely centered on the antagonist, and give short shrift to Siona. The balance was off.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


I think I would recommend Messiah to anyone who really enjoyed Dune. If only because the Tleilaxu are so neat. Itís also by far the shortest in the series and the most direct sequel. And if you really enjoyed Messiah Iíd recommend Children, but after that youíre on your own.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Sorry, double post

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Strom Cuzewon posted:

Messiah is where we get most of the cool stuff on prescience, religious fanatacism, and Paul losing control of the forces he unleashes. Which is what Herbert and his fans tend to describe as "the point" of Dune.

Except its not in Dune. Its in Messiah. If you hear about this things and only read Dune you're gonna be dissapointed. It's like telling a joke without the punchline.

Thatís not true. Thereís probably a half dozen times in Dune where the jihad is invoked and Paul realizes heís powerless to stop it. Messiah definitely addresses it more head on, but itís mentioned as early as Paulís first meeting with Stilgar in Sietch Tabr

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


TheOmegaWalrus posted:

I'm skeptical that even the second half of this movie will get made, given Blade Runner's performance. The first half will likely be a epic and beautiful bomb, leaving people to wonder what could have been. It'll be Jorodowsky's Dune all over again.

That said, I'm probably more interested in seeing Dune:Messiah adapted to the big screen than the first novel. Face dancers, stone burners, the Tleilax, and omnipotent intrigue all backdropped by an unstoppable holy war.

It takes the themes of the original, turns it on it's head and somehow amplifies the crazy all the way to 11.

e: Gholas.

I'm not that much more sanguine than you, but I do think it stands a better chance than Blade Runner because of the ensemble cast, and the fact that seeing the film Dune won't require any familiarity with the story. BR2049 is a sequel to a cult film that preceded it by 35 years. Dune also presents as an epic, optimistic fantasy tale, which is more palatable than a dreary, cynical detective film.

I agree with you about Messiah though. As long as Dune is going to be split into 2 films, Messiah would make a great third act.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I'm hesitant to endorse this because, while you are careful to say "presents" and I see that, Dune really isn't optimistic until you take the fourth book into consideration and the consequences of functional prescience are addressed and disarmed.

Yeah but weíre just talking about the marketing. All of that subversion occurs after youíve bought the ticket

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Tim Blake Nelson was apparently double-booked but was the first choice for sexiest Duncan

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


DAD NO posted:

i can already see the reviews "3/10 this is nazi propaganda, everyone is fighting for a drug to turn their eyes blue and their hair yellow!!"

Stared at this for a full minute and have no idea what it means. Itís both weirdly wrong about Dune and weirdly wrong about Nazism

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


What did he plagiarize?

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Thanks for sharing, I hadnít heard that. I donít think thereís much to it though. Heís obviously quoting Holst. And if you think itís plagiarism, then John Williams plagiarized that same movement for Star Wars. Just listen to Mars and then the scene where the Falcon is being beamed into the Death Star

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Yeah I dunno. Plagiarism in music is a much higher threshold to meet than I think a lot of people realize (I donít just mean in the legal sense). Borrowing a melody is a tradition as old as the western canon itself. Obviously true plagiarism exists and itís all a matter of degrees, but these specific examples donít seem particularly noteworthy.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Bonk posted:

I just went back and watched one of my favorite Villeneuve scenes, the border crossing sequence from Sicario. It's amazing what he does with tension in that scene, and it's a good 15 minutes or so with very little dialogue.

I'm stoked that he's directing the Sisterhood pilot too, assuming that's still a go with productions halted everywhere.

Have you seen Incendies? Thereís a scene in there featuring a bus that is even more tense and well executed than that border crossing.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


drunkill posted:

Crossquoting from the superior dunc thread

Thereís another thread?

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


I guess in order for it to work theyíre going to have to flash forward or somehow creatively point to the jihad, which in the book is all occurring within Paulís head. I guess he could just outright tell Chani that heís started something horrible. Thereís probably more dramatic ways to explicate the consequences of his actions.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Itís always sounded like theyíre sticking to the first book between the two movies. But they also said recently that the first movie will stand in its own merits if a sequel never happens, so I think we should expect them to be taking some liberties with the overall story, because simply filming the first half of the book wouldnít really make for a satisfying conclusion if the worst comes to pass and we only get 1 movie

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Lord Krangdar posted:

Just have the Fremen be extremely brutal to everyone, even innocent bystanders, in the third act.

How would that translate to a galaxy wide holocaust?

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Mulva posted:

Book 4 is pretty much "The point". 3 is sort of an end and 4 is more of a coda. The entire goal of the politics and genetic engineering and the like was to create this super-human that could see a path for the continuation of humanity in the face of inevitable decline and extinction. That happens at the end of 3, and 4 is how he does it. Book 1 is Paul stepping up to the stage, and Book 2 is him rejecting the cost required to be that figure. 3 is his son inheriting the position, and 4 is completing the plan to save humanity.

Everything after that is just sort of....more.

I beg to disagree that the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu were engineering a Kwisatz Haderach to altruistically save the universe. It was a Cold War arms race, except in this case the nuclear weapon became sentient and went rogue.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


phasmid posted:

You're kidding about the altruism part, right?

I think you misread my post. Iím saying that the BG and BT specifically donít have altruistic motives and are obviously horrifically insular cults whose prime directive is to preserve their power at all costs.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Despite my best judgement, I decided to pick up Heretics for the first time (I read 1-4 for the first time several years ago and decided that was enough for me). The time jump between Children and God Emperor was really fascinating, all the more so because Herbert decided to lean deeply into the idea of cultural/technological stagnation. It makes sense that the world hasn't evolved much because Leto has deliberately maintained an iron grip on every facet of the Imperium.

But in Heretics, you'd think that after a similar time jump that some of these entities like the Bene Gesserit or the Tleilaxu would've evolved into entirely new concepts, or otherwise been left behind by history. It'd be like if the Catholic Church maintained its same position of power, influence, tradition etc. for literally like 15,000 years or something. Like, the lack of development from Dune through God Emperor is perfectly explicable, but by all rights the world of Heretics should be unrecognizable. Like, the Tleilaxu are still making gholas of Duncan Idaho? Is it explained why Idaho is particularly useful as a ghola as the book goes on? His function as Hayt in Messiah makes perfect sense, and then Leto II keeping Idahos around for nostalgia makes sense, but what value does Idaho have to anyone who isn't Paul or Leto II? I guess I probably just need to keep reading but yeesh...

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Babe 2: Pig in the City, I think itís obvious enough from context

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Is the teaser thatís circulating online a leak of whatever theyíre premiering on Sept 9? Because thereís text in that teaser that says only Ēexperience the trailerĒ which is confusing.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


I think Duncan Idaho stands out too because his name/presence really harkens back to earlier sci-fi tropes. So much of Dune feels truly novel and without obvious precedent, but Duncan is this very overt nod to a more youth-oriented sci-fi that dominated the genre before Dune. George Lucas littered Star Wars with things that felt straight out of John Carter or Flash Gordon so no particular element stood out, but Duncan is sort of this lone element in Dune that almost feels plucked out from some other story.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


moths posted:

It's jarring that "Idaho" would have any meaning 15,000 years from now, since it barely has any today.

Well you can just imagine something insane happened in the state of Idaho in the year 2300 that rendered it important across tens of thousands of years.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Iím surprised the movie didnít combine Duncan and Gurney into a single character. They barely make sense as individuals in the book, but it feels like one character too many without enough differentiation for a film. I remember when reading Dune for the first time getting constantly tripped up between the two characters- there just doesnít seem to be a narrative reason for both to exist.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003



Wait so did Brian Herbert just write a scene from the movie into the original Dune or something? How weird.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Iím just guessing. Maybe someone else contributed? Just seems so weird to add a scene like that (I say this as an intolerable Lucas apologist)

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Neo Rasa posted:

Wonder what his next thing will be now Tenet died because of him. Like would he need to kill two movies in a row to actually lose clout or is this it? Not saying he'll never be able to make a $$$ movie again but WB can't possibly be happy about that.

Thatís a bit silly. Nolan canít be blamed for the pandemic, and WB and Nolan were presumably hand-in-hand in the release strategy. Nolan is a uniquely reliable and bankable talent. One critical /box office misfire isnít going to affect his trajectory at all.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


A friend of mine who does sound on set for various productions (recently a lot of Netflix original stuff) has resumed on-set work at least in NYC.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Hashtag Banterzone posted:

Yeah that quote always made me picture a Fremen-like insurrection against a ruling class that used machines to violently oppress the populace.



I don't think I like that interpretation, makes it sound like the Jihad was some sort of woke/free your mind/redpill movement.

Thatís the whole point. The book came out in the 60s- itís all about mind expansion. The mentats and Bene Gesserit and guild navigators arose due to the abandonment of AI, necessitating human computers.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


I donít know why itís a foregone conclusion that Dune wonít get a sequel. Iím not especially bullish on it but it seems perfectly possibly that theaters rebound by release day, it gets a huge marketing push and meets their expectations. Iím not saying itís guaranteed or even the most likely outcome but studios have bankrolled plenty of sequels for less.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Again, youíre assuming the movie wonít do well enough and theyíll be looking for an excuse not to green light part 2. But we donít know if Dune will do well. It might be a massive hit! We just donít know.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Cacator posted:

Wouldn't it make more financial sense to film it all at once? They already have a complete story to work off of (no idea if the second script is finished though), all the sets are built and preproduction finished, and they were already on location with all the actors there. Maybe Villeneuve wanted Chalamet to age naturally to fit the time jump in the book?

Iím sure their accountants did the math and saw that itíd be safer to hedge their bets on one movie at a time. Itís frustrating from a creative perspective but I donít think that the cost of having to start production on a sequel that shares sets and stuff is enough to offset that risk, otherwise every film series ever would do it that way.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

so i got into an argument with someone who was really nasty to me about this topic (possibly provoked by an urge to defend Frank Herbert's honor, because it was tangentially related to whether he was homophobic or not), but they raised an interesting point and I thought I'd run it by people who aren't quite so deeply invested

Namely: do you think Paul and Leto II's understanding of the Golden Path is actually accurate? That is, were Leto's 3500 years of tyranny followed by his suicide at Siona's hands actually necessary for humanity to survive, and more broadly, are his insights into human behavior, history, and culture supposed to be diegetically true or just the ramblings of an insane tyrant?

Iím not sure what the answer is, but Iím curious about how this became such a heated topic. Asking whether Leto II is a reliable narrator seems like a great question?

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Xealot posted:

Meanwhile, I recall the Fremen as starkly ascetic and hyper-functional. Unlike the Harkonnens with their bacchanals and their gladiator games and their queerness.


The Fremen have literal, ritualistic orgies.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


Grandpa Palpatine posted:

but no, seriously, is zendaya getting naked?

i need to know for a friend

Nothing creepy to see here.

If anyone is interested, a writer named Harris Durani is doing a really fascinating re-read of Children of Dune on Medium right now. Heís got all sorts of fascinating insights about the Muslim origins of a lot of Fremen religious ideas and customs

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Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003


No, thatís overly reductive. Herbert pulled from a variety of indigenous cultures across continents for his inspiration. That Medium post I referenced specifically goes into the origins of Jacurutu as Brazilian.

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