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Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Honest Thief posted:

wasn't god emperor a big brother type of analogy?

he gives humanity the big daddy perfect god-king we always wanted for 10,000 years so we collectively get so sick of it that rejecting authoritarianism becomes etched into our genes

sadly, he would probably have voted trump had he lived. you see the signs of chud brain rot in the later books, like a major character being a rabbi because judaism is so awesome it hasn't changed in 20,000 years

his gender essentialism is mostly saved from being totally loathesome by the fact that he thinks women are better than men, but he's also only able to write exactly one female character and it shows when he tries to have multiple women as viewpoint characters

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 4, 2020

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Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Nessus posted:

He had two Bene Gesserit people in an alien planet two hundred centuries on take a moment to bitch about the liberals. That's what took me out of that one.

Ironic, considering that his entire critique of the idea of jihad is so fundamentally liberal.

Paul's actual tragedy is that he can't reclaim his place in the system without giving commoners a brief outlet for justice and actual change, and he spends two books pouting about it. The best part of the books is that Herbert wanted to be ruled by the God Emperor; he wanted a strong daddy to keep everyone in their place.

He knows that this is bad, and gets as much mileage as he can out of spinning in circles refusing to consider that maybe justice being more important than keeping your hands clean might not just be a luxury of the nobility, and that Paul's guilt over the jihad is pure hypocrisy.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Feb 18, 2020

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




David D. Davidson posted:

Technically he inherited the planet through nepotism.

all that was set to get him was a shallow grave in the desert

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




phasmid posted:

So what I'm hearing is "why doesn't the guild just collapse the galactic economy and let everyone starve so that they have to move to arrakis and mine the drat stuff themselves since they're only like ~0.00002% of the total population instead of living in luxury and exploring the stars and weighing in on human affairs on the interplanetary scale?"

Gee, I dunno. Maybe with all their prescience they just never considered doing that.

paul does call them out for using their prescience only to chart a safe course as being what prevented them from getting on his level, iirc

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




phasmid posted:

We can't all be Chosen.

paul conquered the universe, but the guilders got even higher on space drugs. who is to say who chose the better path.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




RestingB1tchFace posted:

Is it still a secret of who's playing Feyd in the movie?

the story of a man, doomed to be but the shadow of another

by which i mean sting, i have no idea who signed up to do it tho

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




a real adaptation of dune for our time should definitely play up the appeal of the fremen way of life where simplicity and connection to nature has both mystical meanings based on the place of humanity in their environment and scientific meaning in their long term ecological terraforming project

so yeah give us like two solid hours of paul and jessica being fremen

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Martman posted:

I've started to think maybe the hardest part of adapting Dune is the action. So much of the imagery requires epic scale, insane visuals, etc., but then you get to the way fights work and everything turns into a kung-fu scene where multiple characters are making decisions in a tenth of a second and someone kicks someone so hard that they die instantly. Honestly this is the thing I'm most worried about with Villeneuve's version... has he ever really tackled a fight scene like this? The brief glimpses of melee combat we've seen in the trailers have felt kind of basic to me, and I think it will lose a lot if the punching and sword fighting feels generic and sterile rather than visceral and crucial to revealing the way the characters think.

so you're saying they need to borrow from anime to adapt this

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006





you are too late. i have become the Universal Man.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




deoju posted:

What happens to her? Or what does she do? I can't remember.

Becomes possessed by the Baron as the result of her undergoing spice agony in the womb, and kills herself in a moment of clarity.

Frank Herbert had a lot of trouble writing women who weren't Lady Jessica. He strongly idealized other women (saving him from misogyny through an ultimately essentialist conception of women as morally superior to men), making me suspect that Jessica is on some level a pastiche of his mother and his wife. Or more broadly, of women in his life he was able to conceptualize as equals without putting them on a pedestal.

e: Actually, thinking of the sheer variety of interacting Lady Jessicas in the later (post God Emperor) books, and there being a few whole books with only one male PoV character in an environment dominated by these powerful women, I kind of suspect Herbert was raised in a similar environment.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Aug 11, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Nah, Kwisatz Haderach was used by the Bene Gesserit to describe a man who could access both male and female Other Memory and thus predict the future accurately in ways they could not. Jessica produced one a generation early; the intent was to unite the Atriedies and Haronnens and put the Kwisatz Haderach on the throne directly.

By the second book, the Tleilaxu had even produced their own Kwisatz Haderach, although they also failed to control theirs.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Kassad posted:

I also saw it as meaning he is not what the BG want the Kwisatz Haderach to be.

Perhaps, but what they wanted is impossible; you can't control a Kwisatz Haderach. Learning this cost them their breeding program (which Leto II took over and repurposed).

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




bawfuls posted:

Even if you aren't worried about the effects on yourself, you should worry about the likelihood of spreading it to others and thus helping perpetuate the pandemic. There are 50 million unvaccinated children in America right now, and every additional person who gets infected is another link in a potential transmission chain to a child who'll get long covid or worse.

Then again these are goons, maybe you live alone, work from home, and can quarantine yourself for a week after a potential exposure event like a packed theater.

Heads up that even vaccinated people can get the delta variant. My kid got it for this reason; he's doing fine though.

(e: the vaccinated person involved actually got it worse than any of the kids, though she is also doing well).

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Aug 20, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Payndz posted:

Yeah, Variety and Hollywood Reporter both have "It's impressive, buuuuut..." reviews, boiling down to its running out of steam some time before the To Be Continued ending, most of the characters you become invested in being killed off (blame Herbert for that, though) and a feeling that what it's showing has been blunted by imitation in other films, specifically Star Wars.

I mean, it wouldn't really be true to the original if you didn't miss Duke Leto and crew after Paul loses them, at least on your first viewing of the story.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




sean10mm posted:

I don't know how much the movie foreshadows where all this ends up, but lol at seeing the Dune novel as a white savior story when the whole point is that the consequences of people buying into all the (implicitly white, European) messiah poo poo is intergalactic genocide.

poo poo, Herbert hammers home the point that Paul being "one of the good ones" has almost no bearing on how it all plays out except at the margins, the "good guy" white savior imperialist protagonist kills billions anyway. Like we literally read Paul's thoughts where just just says it to the reader.

Paul doesn't save the Fremen, he turns them into shell-shocked drug addicts from his forever wars and destroys their culture at home, all because his dad was on the wrong end of a dynastic beef among the space aristocracy.

Herbert wasn't subtle, he just literally has all the poo poo I said happen in the first 2 books or something. Herbert was 1 step away from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk7M2jGdnxU

The second book has that character who takes Paul's messianic bs seriously despite having known him back in the 'hood (er, stiech?), and Paul and Alia just laugh at him knowing full well he's going to betray Paul.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Arglebargle III posted:

I think a lot of fans of the first book are turned off hard by the sequel because all the stuff in the first book about how all the Great Houses are evil including the Atreides is easy to skim over. Leto's cynicism in unguarded moments with Paul, his dying regrets, Paul's dark premonitions, are all easy to pass over. In the second book Herbert slaps you in the face with it.

It would be awesome to do Messiah and Villeneuve would love getting to shoot the obscenely huge and opulent imperial palace and the nuclear explosion. But it would never be popular.

I really hope the script gives Oscar Isaac something to chew on because Leto I is an interesting character. He's good at playing the Great Game, sick of playing it, and not as good as he thinks he is.

I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




It gets brought up; Paul mentions that the Guild was simply too habituated to using their prescience to find safe routes to the future to go ahead with something destabilizing.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Their goal is life is to literally immerse their bodies in spice 24/7 and they accomplish this goal for an impressively long period of time.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




sean10mm posted:

They're space stoners who found One Wierd Trick to get lifetime weed 24/7.

this but also petro scumbags addicted to huffing gas fumes

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




No Mods No Masters posted:

I guess the answer is probably "more spice" :horsedrugs:

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Hasselblad posted:

I found it pretty dumb that millennium into the future, humans would not look at a smear of spice on the sand, a substance that is uber valuable and allows space time to be folded, and not already know what produces it and what can destroy it.

As the imperial planetologist, what could Kynes have been telling the emperor all the years he'd been studying it?
:iiam:?

I wonder why short-sighted rulers selected from the best backstabbers of the landlord class and addicted to profits and drugs would ignore a scientist who is actually interested in why the spice flows in the first place, the environment where it flows from, and what the indigenous people who live there know of it?

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Hasselblad posted:

I mean, did it really take Paul's KH powers to deduce that on a planet of sand/fremen/worms and not much of anything else, there might be a relationship of the worms with the spice?

This is the setting that inspired WH40K.

Yes. Yes it did.

e: actually, all it would have taken was listening to Kynes, which Leto fully intended to do. But Paul got to see the whole ecology project from the ground as a Fremen, and their knowledge combined with his powers allowed him to understand it despite Kynes' death. Also he was the other grandfather of Leto II "Literal God King" Atreides through Chani, so both Leto II and the "wild" line retained the genetic knowledge (and Leto II probably chatted with him in his head).

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Sep 13, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




phasmid posted:

I think expression is a living thing, or close to it. Even if the thing is stamped out in its final form, there's a feedback with the viewer. But to attach to anything too firmly is a mistake, because those things will evolve and change and perhaps one day be obsolete entire, even to the person who once loved the thing.

Then there's fully grown adults who seriously entertain the idea of superheroes and get real mad if you call spider-man a dweeb or say that iron man (if he were real) would be directly responsible for us blowing up those unfortunates in Kabul.

It isn't a living thing, but you are, and make it alive by finding meaning in it. Thus death of the author, etc.

You probably shouldn't make a religion out of a brand though. The best part is the insistence on "canon." Actually the best part is the SMG posts this inspires.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Sep 18, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




I kind of interpret the "machine mentality" that the jihad was against as not only AI, but industrialization, mass production, and capitalism. But it wasn't a communist uprising, so the result was a techno-feudalism where exploitation using many of those tools occurs piecemeal but the model is generally a colonial, or at best feudal relationship with semi-slave producers and in some cases guilds (as we see on Dune with spice harvesting) and a mercantilist economy. “Arrakis is a one-crop planet. One crop. It supports a ruling class that lives as ruling classes have lived in all times while, beneath them, a semihuman mass of semislaves exists on the leavings…”

e: 8000 years? Dune is set a bit more than 10,000 years after the Jihad. In the original Dune Encylcopedia (not "cannon" but better than the timelines based on Herbert's kid's crap) the founding of the Spacing Guild shortly after the Jihad is 0 on the calendar and we're writing this at 14500 or so Before Guild.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Sep 20, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




What Paul ultimately represents is access to the reigns of established power through a legitimate claim to the imperial throne and a matching upbringing, pedigree, and education. Also professional military training that is actually massively better than that available to the imperial elite forces for their insurgency.

And the nukes were very helpful.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Blood Boils posted:

Every time Shadout Mapes is on screen shout out "that's Mapes!"

listen here buddy, that's the Shadout Mapes :toughguy: :jihad:

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




quote:

In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the jihad in it.

quote:

"'...What little information we have about the old times, the pittance of data which the Butlerians left us, Korba has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan.' 'Ghenghis . . . Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m'Lord?' 'Oh, long before that. He killed . . . perhaps four million.' 'He must've had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams, perhaps, or . . .' 'He didn't kill them himself, Stil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out his legions. There's another emperor I want you to note in passing--a Hitler. He killed more than six million. Pretty good for those days.' 'Killed . . . by his legions?' Stilgar asked. 'Yes.' 'Not very impressive statistics, m'Lord.' "

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Yeah, for every aphorism he churns out that's interesting or insightful, there's one that misses and is just (incredibly ironically) reflexive chanting of various memes like "hard times make hard men, etc."

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




it's just kegels

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Baron von Eevl posted:

Wait, are you telling me the guy who wrote extensive justification for how Paul's daughter was actually a several millennia-old consciousness inside the body of a prepubescent girl so it's actually okay for her to marry an adult man and procreate was a libertarian?

Honestly, if you depict feudal aristocracy without someone getting married at puberty to someone older than them, you're being dishonest about what feudalism was. Hell, there were couples affianced before either was even weaned.

Technically, however, Ghanima married her brother (in a purely symbolic marriage intended to make sure that no other great house established a claim to the throne via Ghanima). Ghanima then becomes Empress, with Farad'n as her personal concubine.

I'm not sure about the age gap between her and Farad'n, but we are put off by age gaps because the gap creates a destructive and unhealthy power imbalance in the relationship, uh, the imbalance was not in that direction, though not in a manner we would ever want to create. Nor really would the characters, but the arrangement allowed Leto II to control and repurpose the breeding program and also secure the loyalty of the Sardaukar, and that reflects the real motivation behind these sorts of marriages: power, not ethics or mutual happiness and support.

And from his own position of idealizing heterocentric monogamy, this was also Herbert's critique. Ghanima and Farrad'n do not get to choose their partner nor enjoy official matrimony due to politics, although like Paul and Chani and Leto and Jessica, they still get Herbert's ultimate reward for virtue: de facto heterosexual monogamy. With a little irony that might count as a feminist gesture in this extremely conscribed context, in that the man is this time the "concubine."

Anyhow, what I mean is that I don't think Herbert was looking for an excuse to shack up a young woman and an older man; he was critical of the events he depicted, just from a very different perspective than ours.

e: in case anyone is interested, I checked and Farad'n is 11 years older than Ghanima, being born in 10198 AG, while the twins were born in 10209 AG. The unfortunate fact is that this matters very little in an aristocratic context. The, uh, rule by "the best" did not in fact send its best.

e2: so I was thinking "okay, but how old was she when they married," and this timeline sucks. Leto II ascends to the throne in 10219 AG. That would make him, and his sister at marriage... ten years old? Big yikes, but uh, I don't think that matches how the books depict the characters, who I imagined as at least teenagers. Like that would require Leto II to be depicted as prepubescent and it's been awhile but... I think the timeline is just straight up wrong? Or did I just edit that out of my memory as extremely stupid?

e3: like Chani is supposed to be the dominant force in her mind protecting her from becoming like Alia, and I just cannot imagine her mother in her head being at all alright with that. Granted, Alia initially proposes that marriage and Ghanima's reaction is "fine, I'll just kill him on the wedding night" so um... yeah anyhow I think it's time to stop thinking about this.

e4: okay, so the timeline from the Dune Encyclopedia is somewhat different, keeping Leto II and Ghanima's bizzare youth but making Farad'n only 19 at the time, having been born in 10200 AG. that doesn't really make things much better (it's only two years difference), but it at least positions both Ghanima and Farrad'n as both kids forced into this by circumstances. I'll let others decide if that "helps."

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Oct 1, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




One mitigating factor is that aristocratic marriages were not typically ones you could get away with a lot of spousal abuse in. The recent "gilded cage" experienced by middle class Victorian women was not a problem for aristocratic women because their marriage contracts guaranteed far more rights within the marriage than a middle class woman could expect to enjoy. Also all her relatives would by nature be powerful people who get away with murder on a casual basis.

(Due to the response to a demographic crisis on the aristocracy, few males being born for about a generation by what appears to be random chance, the poor in England were unable to be married except through common law at the outset of the Victorian period. This excluded lower class women from the confines of the "gilded cage" as well.)

e: I think it was a Marxist historian who pointed out that a lot of medieval alliances were predicated on sexual reproduction being a form of communication which does not require speaking a common language.

"Love matches" were considered highly desirable- the same way having a job you love is now considered desirable. Ie, nice if you can get it, but you're lucky if your spouse even speaks your language or vis versa. This is an example of why Marxists praise capitalism as an improvement in nearly every way over feudalism. This was what kings and queens had to put up with. This was as good as it got.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Oct 1, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Baron von Eevl posted:

It doesn't. I mean mostly it was a joke about libertarians wanting to abolish age of consent but also "hey, the 11 year old wanted it and since she has all the power it's okay" nooooooooope

Haha, yeah. It's a fictional example of a practice was in no way "all right," and was at best an adaptation to circumstances that no one was happy with. As TLM3101 said, though, there was an expectation that you not consumate the marriage right away for the most part. Definitely not before puberty, which in a medieval context came much later than it does today.

On the other hand, Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church, causing generations of civil strife and, through the ideology he created to justify this, caused a full blow civil war several generations later, then went through five more wives (some executed, at least one he never even slept with and divorced unconsummated) trying to have a son before settling on his daughters, one being his heir Elizabeth, possibly the best monarch in British history (depending on your benchmark).

e: the really depressing fact is that an aristocrat who wanted to be a pedo didn't need to resort to marriage to do it. Within the aristocracy, though, the only case I've encountered of sexual abuse of a child resulted in an army showing up at the estate of the pedo in question, and that army was just as horrified as we would be today. (Actually somewhat more horrified as I recall, as this was a very literal offense before God in their eyes and the abuse was considered to have damaged the soul of the child in a manner that was less understood and therefore terrifying to them. It was unclear if it would be possible to save the child's soul due to the observed effects of the abuse, a notion that was deeply unsettling to their world view and empathy for the child whose damnation they felt powerless to prevent. They were Not Happy).

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Oct 1, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




TLM3101 posted:

That would be old Gilles de Rais, no? I think Erzsbet Bathory miiiight be in that category too, given the ( alleged ) age of some of her victims. But yeah. Depending on your wealth and precise place in the nobility, you could pretty much do as you pleased if you were "reasonably discrete" - imagine I put those in massive quotes - about it.

Unfortunately, the book is packed away at a friend's and I can't check, but I don't think so. There were no murders involved that I recall. It was awhile back, but to my recollection it was a couple abusing their adopted niece, and perhaps one or two other children.

It was the obvious effect on the child (including things we'd be understanding of, if horrified by, like open lewdness) that was particularly distressing. It called into question whether it was possible to save the child's soul, in the Christian sense, and that is a thing that should not be possible in a Christian worldview. Cthulhu could have emerged from that estate and started eating the army and that would have easily fit into their notion of reality. The damage done by prolonged sexual abuse was far more horrifying- it raised the possibility that a human could be so evil, they could desecrate a child in a manner that would force God to condemn the child's soul to hell before that child even developed free will.

Like lots of child abuse happened, but doing so openly to prepubescent children was not something anyone, in any society that I am aware of, has been able to condone in any culture or period of history, without being propped up by some foreign power (hi America). And as you've been pointing out, even when someone was married young, this was not carte blanche for someone to do whatever they wanted with a partner who was not yet considered an adult. Henry spurned the literal representation of God on Earth, but sexual interaction with people recognized as children was the sort of thing you made up about Roman Emperors to slander them.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Neo Rasa posted:

I never finished Chapterhouse if that tells you anything. I did read through Heretics but it's pretty bad at points. It's an attempt have more like uh assassination/plans within plans/espionage kind of stuff going on like in the original book but also introduces a faction called the Honored Matres that are like the Bene Jesserit except their entire gimmick is loving a lot and sexual domination also you know they're evil because they all wear red dresses with a dragon print on it. Honestly it starts out promisingly but by the end it was really stupid.

I kind of found the books sympathetic the Matres. The Bene Gessirit characters, for example, don't condemn them, but rather want to merge their organizations (with themselves at the helm of course). And the reason they're so pissed off is very, very understandable (the tanks the Tleilaxu used for all their technology turned out to be all that is left of their society's women), even if they have themselves forgotten it. To me, this implies a religious basis for their power over men that preceded their weird sex stuff. Facing something like that, to me it's understandable that men would have deferred to women at that point.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Oct 1, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Arglebargle III posted:

:siren:Libertarians have entered the thread.:siren:

what have i become???

oh wait, it's just sandtrout attatching to my body. that's fine right?

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




the phrase "face dancer ahegao" just occured to me. i will not google it. fear is the mind killer. some things are better mind killers.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Arglebargle III posted:

Imperial Planetologist Liet Grimes

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Schwarzwald posted:

God Emperor is probably the worse book on a plot and character level, since it's pretty much the Leto II show and he's not compelling as a character, but it's satisfying to see the already bizarre set up of Children taken to the furthest, horrifying extent.

Heretics is probably the better written book, but it's telling a much less interesting story.

God Emperor of Dune is more of a philosophical novel than the others. It's not goundbreaking or coherent philosophy, though; it's more like a book of religious sayings but written from the inner psychological perspective of the prophet.

e:

Dessel posted:

I know it was mentioned and it's probably how the original novel doesn't aim for "realism" but the Atreides army running towards their ships with all of them in a vulnerable position in surprise still feels a little dumb. As mentioned earlier, the Atreides home world having seas to obscure their ships was a nice touch.

It's a pretty good way of demonstrating that the Harkonnen attack simply comes too fast for Leto to prepare. Given time, they'd have learned to hide their ships in the sand, but if they tried right off the bat they'd end up eaten by sandworms.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Oct 3, 2021

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




I just realized that this whole thread might not know about Calvin and Muad'Dib. This is haram and must be remedied.

It also seems to have returned from a long hiatus, so some new ones for people who did know about it:





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Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




AnEdgelord posted:

The most interesting stuff Leto says in God Emperor is when he talks about machines and how they engendered "machine thinking" and how humans think in a way that is fundamentally different from computers. It was a shockingly relevant discussion in a sea of reddit nonsense, made more interesting because I had just seen Adam Curtis make the same point in his latest documentary.

I took that bit to be, likely unintentionally, to be largely about capitalism.

Although if you want to trace the "machine mindset" to it's roots, it would be Aristotle's (eventually after like 2000 years) scientifically productive but ultimately inaccurate and repulsive assumption that animals are automata. A conclusion which really gives you a feel for why despite being both patriarchal slave holding societies, many ancient Jews could not stand their Greek contemporaries. In Jewish law, if food was short you had to feed, in order, animals, then slaves, then other dependents, then family, then yourself.

And one of the dumbest interpretations in Christian history; going with this as doctrine, in contradiction to the entirely settled word of God in Judaism, because some pigs drowned after Christ exorcized them and Aristotle made people back then feel all smart.

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