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Hey, they're mad scientists. Some Ferengi trader rolls up and says 'I hear you've been looking for exotic genetic material analogues, hu-mon. Have I got some treats for you. All for a very reasonable price, of course...... Yes, that is, in fact, genuine Q DNA. Very rare. Very expensive.'
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Nov 25, 2022 20:14
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A.o.D. posted:That doesn't explain how they got access to kazon genetic material. A single Kazon was on the cube when it got blown up, completely ignored by the collective for being a Kazon, and thus not a threat.
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Nov 25, 2022 20:24
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I think its just easier on the brain to assume that the board was meant to be just fun easter eggs and not a hard canon list of all the DNA Dal is made up of. Also I'm going to say he is Chakotay, that he was experimented on so much he came out as Dal. Also, again, Prodigy being with recognizable star trek stuff makes the show way more enjoyable than before. I was wondering why the Trill was being so aggressive with the Diviner, but now we know. Though this is kind of annoying how they're just letting an unknown alien wonder around the ship. MikeJF posted:
Its funny looking at that because it shows how small the star trek galaxy actually is. Something like Star Wars or 40k or Dune or Babylon 5 whatever big sci fi franchise, the galaxy is way bigger in regards of the setting. It's like playing Stellaris on a small map. Also how slow warp drive is.
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Nov 25, 2022 23:22
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twistedmentat posted:I think its just easier on the brain to assume that the board was meant to be just fun easter eggs and not a hard canon list of all the DNA Dal is made up of. Also I'm going to say he is Chakotay, that he was experimented on so much he came out as Dal. Also, again, Prodigy being with recognizable star trek stuff makes the show way more enjoyable than before. I was wondering why the Trill was being so aggressive with the Diviner, but now we know. Though this is kind of annoying how they're just letting an unknown alien wonder around the ship. Isn't B5 galaxy also something like "20 jumps from end to end"?
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Nov 25, 2022 23:26
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I think it's more that Trek is the only one that treats the galaxy as actually huge either 90% of the shows taking place relatively close together. Star Wars Galaxy always feels small as hell for me since it's speed of plot.
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Nov 25, 2022 23:47
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twistedmentat posted:I think its just easier on the brain to assume that the board was meant to be just fun easter eggs and not a hard canon list of all the DNA Dal is made up of. Also I'm going to say he is Chakotay, that he was experimented on so much he came out as Dal. Also, again, Prodigy being with recognizable star trek stuff makes the show way more enjoyable than before. I was wondering why the Trill was being so aggressive with the Diviner, but now we know. Though this is kind of annoying how they're just letting an unknown alien wonder around the ship. It seems the opposite to me? In Star Wars most of the galaxy is governed by a single central government and the parts that aren't are defined as the exceptions, in Star Trek the main setting including countless civilisations and vast empires amounting to hundreds of trillions of people takes place in a slice of the galaxy roughly analgous to a slice of the world the size of Australia
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Nov 25, 2022 23:49
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Der Kyhe posted:Isn't B5 galaxy also something like "20 jumps from end to end"? B5 has a weird scale issue going on, canonically the whole region it takes place in is like a 50 light year sphere but they often talk about it as if it's the entire galaxy. And there's one scene literally showing the entire galaxy divided between two powers. This map is from the RPG so it's the closest thing to official there is: 
Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Nov 26, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2022 00:19
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I like that in Trek, the galaxy is still so huge and mysterious that there could be multiple Borg/Dominion-level threats out there that we have no idea about whatsoever. Most other sci-fi treats galaxies as like small towns at best and are dismissively looking farther afield to keep things interesting. (Doctor Who is especially bad for this.) If Janeway had just angled one light year off to the left, she would have detected the first traces of the Szyfiirii Consensus and the fate of the entire quadrant would have changed, but now we will never know...
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Nov 26, 2022 00:25
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Those are all good points, and when you think about it, its a difference between something that is primarily movies vs something that is mostly tv shows. You have how many Star Trek episodes over the 10 series, which nearly every episode requires a new planet and/or new culture to explore. I'm not saying either is better, but its just interesting how casually in other franchises that the galaxy (or universe) is traversed but despite the ease of travel in Trek, its still only over a very small amount of space.
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Nov 26, 2022 00:38
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MikeJF posted:
Huh. That's... quite scale of distance. And gives an idea how *mindboggingly far* Voyage traveled and how far Terraelysium is from Earth.
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Nov 26, 2022 00:52
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It always bugs me a little bit how Federation space is represented on maps as this big messy splotch, snaking around all over the place, barely contiguous compared to pretty much all its major neighbors, like a bad case of Paradox grand strategy border gore
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Nov 26, 2022 01:18
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Delsaber posted:It always bugs me a little bit how Federation space is represented on maps as this big messy splotch, snaking around all over the place, barely contiguous compared to pretty much all its major neighbors, like a bad case of Paradox grand strategy border gore I think it makes sense if you think of it in how each group expands and thinks of itself. Most of the other groups think of themselves as empires, seem to expand by conquest, and have a strong home-planet in the center of the empire that has strong centralized control over all the area it covers. The Federation on the other hand just sort of goes out exploring where ever as long as no one else controls it, and just asks who ever they encounter, "hey, you want to join"?, and while they have a head quarters for the Federation, it has relatively weak control of all the planets that have joined it. So yeah, it just sort of fills in the gaps made from all the other powers surrounding it, leading to it being pretty splotchy.
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Nov 26, 2022 02:33
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Yep, I like the Federation's weird borders. A space state with entirely voluntary membership should have strange, discontinuous borders compared to empires of conquest.
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Nov 26, 2022 02:35
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Part of the problem with borders is, first, you're talking about 3d space drawn on a 2d map. Also, with a lot these star empires, most of the borders aren't real. Most of space is empty or not useful to people. The real borders are bubbles around colonized planets and space stations. Everything else is just empty space that's claimed.
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Nov 26, 2022 03:03
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Trek is often super loose with distance and travel times too. DS9 is alternately several days, and several hours from Earth depending on plot
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Nov 26, 2022 08:52
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twistedmentat posted:Its funny looking at that because it shows how small the star trek galaxy actually is. Something like Star Wars or 40k or Dune or Babylon 5 whatever big sci fi franchise, the galaxy is way bigger in regards of the setting. It's like playing Stellaris on a small map. Also how slow warp drive is. I assume you mean 'how small the Star Trek setting is'. Part of that is because they want to keep the number of members/planets comprehensible, instead of being like 'the Federation has eight hundred thousand member planets' or something. In other settings that cover most of the galaxy there's usually a huge narrative disconnect between the sheer number of planets and stars it theoretically covers, and the way that it tends to be depicted as working. There are between one hundred and four hundred billion stars in the Milky Way, after all. But also, a big factor is the more important one - the writers want there to always be a frontier! Star Wars, 40k, etc, are settings where there's an ancient, established, entrenched setting. Discovery in those shows usually entails them finding ancient artefacts and things, the frontiers aren't that big because that's not the kind of genre they're in. Star Trek is about exploration and new worlds. Although of the ones you mentioned, for most of the books the Dune Old Imperium actually isn't that big an area, only a thousand light years or so across. That changes with The Scattering, where humanity is traumatised into flinging themselves as far and wide as possible and colony ships are happily spending centuries shooting outwards and then their colonies will launching further expansion and there are people who do intergalactic fold-jumps. But even then, the action in the last few books is centred on The Old Imperium, which is still a relatively small space. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Nov 26, 2022 |
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Nov 26, 2022 10:24
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Foundation was the only book series I’ve read where the scale of the galaxy made sense - with millions of inhabited worlds, some of them would be visited by empire representatives once in a generation.
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Nov 26, 2022 11:23
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I just caught the most recent episode of Prodigy. Holy poo poo, they got Ronnie Cox to reprise his role as Ed Jellico. After 30 years!
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Nov 26, 2022 11:24
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A.o.D. posted:There's so much wrong with this that it's kind of pissing me off. Some of those things aren't species, and some of them that are don't have DNA. Her software could just be wrong. She's a dodgy scientist practicing her trade in a zone where none of the big empires are allowed to go. Her work must be illegal in more than the federation or she'd have a more prestigious location. Where does she buy her software? From equally dodgy characters. Who knows if they got all the symbols right.
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Nov 26, 2022 11:53
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Facebook Aunt posted:Her software could just be wrong. She's a dodgy scientist practicing her trade in a zone where none of the big empires are allowed to go. Her work must be illegal in more than the federation or she'd have a more prestigious location. Lol would actually be funny to headcanon this as why some of the symbols are the fanmade non-canon ones too
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Nov 26, 2022 18:05
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https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1596163142408617987?s=20&t=mwRXGt_7mUTESWOYxfu_Tg Apparently not everything on the screen was in Dal's DNA.
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Nov 26, 2022 19:31
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Mokotow posted:Foundation was the only book series I’ve read where the scale of the galaxy made sense - with millions of inhabited worlds, some of them would be visited by empire representatives once in a generation. Yea the 40k IMperium clearly took that as part of it, and you don't really want the Imperium to show up because it means that you A) failed in your duty to the Imperium B) there are psykers wrecking havoc on your world C) Xenos are invading D) Your planet is revolting either due to chaos or Genestealer cults E) a fly fell into a cogitator and turned a B into a T. MikeJF posted:I assume you mean 'how small the Star Trek setting is'. Part of that is because they want to keep the number of members/planets comprehensible, instead of being like 'the Federation has eight hundred thousand member planets' or something. In other settings that cover most of the galaxy there's usually a huge narrative disconnect between the sheer number of planets and stars it theoretically covers, and the way that it tends to be depicted as working. There are between one hundred and four hundred billion stars in the Milky Way, after all. Yea thats kind of what i got into my follow up post, the nature of serialized TV for Trek demands the unknown to be bigger so you have a full sandbox of writing where you can do whatever your want in the episode your writing. And yea, its intresting that all the space empires in Trek tend to be younger races to use b5 terminology. Yea Vulcans have been space faring longer than anyone but its not like they have a galaxy spanding empire thats 50,000 years old and are in decline. But the galaxy is clearly very old, and has had space fairing peoples for eons, which again, gives you a complete free hand to write whatever weird and wonderful stuff for your characters to explore. Which incidentally is one of my favorite Trek stories, the discovery of some ancient thing that causes problems for the crew. Probably why am one of the few people who actually likes Masks? Also I've read dune like two dozen times, and I always got the impression the Imperium is mindboggiling huge and thats why space fold is needed to travel between worlds, it was the Old Empire that predated the Bulteran Jihad that was fairly small because they were limited by their ability to travel from system to system.
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Nov 26, 2022 19:45
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twistedmentat posted:Which incidentally is one of my favorite Trek stories, the discovery of some ancient thing that causes problems for the crew. Probably why am one of the few people who actually likes Masks? imo late TNG gets kinda staid and far too comfortable with itself, Masks is kinda goofy but it was nice to see them run into a good old outside context problem again that they couldn't technobabble their way out of
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Nov 26, 2022 20:16
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twistedmentat posted:Yea the 40k IMperium clearly took that as part of it, and you don't really want the Imperium to show up because it means that you A) failed in your duty to the Imperium B) there are psykers wrecking havoc on your world C) Xenos are invading D) Your planet is revolting either due to chaos or Genestealer cults E) a fly fell into a cogitator and turned a B into a T. “Mind-bogglingly huge” and “small on a galactic scale” aren’t remotely contradictory. Herbert is very vague (wisely) about the precise locations of things but he does mention, in the first book’s appendices, a number of stars whose planets have been settled. 70 Ophiuchi A, Canopus, Delta Pavonis, Sigma Draconis, Alpha Centauri B, and 36 Ophiuchi B are cited, among a couple of others using nonstandard names where it’s hard to say whether they are supposed to represent known stars or fanciful ones. Almost all of the clearly identified names are quite close to Earth though—the farthest is Canopus, 310 light-years away, and implicitly in the boondocks of the empire since it’s the location of Dune itself. The Milky Way, however, is over 80000 light-years across—so I think the implication in the original book is that the “known universe” of the empire, objectively enormous though it is, is mostly pretty tightly clustered around our own solar system (even though it has long since been defunct as a political center, it is the initial origin of all human settlement) and does not cover the whole galaxy or anything like it.
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Nov 26, 2022 21:00
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skasion posted:“Mind-bogglingly huge” and “small on a galactic scale” aren’t remotely contradictory. Herbert is very vague (wisely) about the precise locations of things but he does mention, in the first book’s appendices, a number of stars whose planets have been settled. 70 Ophiuchi A, Canopus, Delta Pavonis, Sigma Draconis, Alpha Centauri B, and 36 Ophiuchi B are cited, among a couple of others using nonstandard names where it’s hard to say whether they are supposed to represent known stars or fanciful ones. Almost all of the clearly identified names are quite close to Earth though—the farthest is Canopus, 310 light-years away, and implicitly in the boondocks of the empire since it’s the location of Dune itself. The Milky Way, however, is over 80000 light-years across—so I think the implication in the original book is that the “known universe” of the empire, objectively enormous though it is, is mostly pretty tightly clustered around our own solar system (even though it has long since been defunct as a political center, it is the initial origin of all human settlement) and does not cover the whole galaxy or anything like it. As I understand it, "Warp Factor" in Star Trek is in terms of speed of light. So some kind of superfast ship that did Warp 10 would still take 8000 years to travel the galaxy from one end to another.
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Nov 26, 2022 22:02
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I mean it always obviously comes down to what sort of story are you trying to tell. Star wars -just talking about the first three movies- they give a few lines of dialogue to tell you the universe is old and pretty large, but it's all smartly kept vague. On screen it feels more like how we would consider traveling around a country today. You know, oh you know well have to get in the car and travel a bit, it will be a bit boring for a while, but really it not that far away. The travel was pretty incidental, as end of the day it was about characters going through stuff and just arriving at places and doing things pretty specific things, not a long adventurous literal journey, or exploring the unknown thing. In the expanses the distances are far less, but the distances are given more weight. Like if you need to get somewhere, you do have to think about how you are going to get there a bit more. Actually just having a journey through space between two places is often much more part of the story, and given more importance. I'll say with SNW the universe -to me at least- just feels quite a bit smaller than TNG or TOS. At least the part that they're traveling in, and that's fine with the stories they're trying to tell. Lot my emphases on the crew, and having a starport always pretty close by where they can have some downtime makes a lot of sense, but never got the sense they were having long journeys into the unknown, just some pretty short trips. Again not a slight on SNW as it's awesome.
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Nov 26, 2022 22:18
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Everyone posted:As I understand it, "Warp Factor" in Star Trek is in terms of speed of light. So some kind of superfast ship that did Warp 10 would still take 8000 years to travel the galaxy from one end to another. Voyager would take 75 years to travel 75000 light years I think?
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Nov 27, 2022 00:28
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Everyone posted:As I understand it, "Warp Factor" in Star Trek is in terms of speed of light. So some kind of superfast ship that did Warp 10 would still take 8000 years to travel the galaxy from one end to another.  From TNG onward, it's an exponential scale. Warp 10 is infinite speed. Edit: This is as dumb as it sounds. From VOY onward all the important speeds are 9.9something with an increasing number of digits.
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Nov 27, 2022 00:56
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Warp 10 is an asymptote that it's impossible to reach because it would require all of the energy in the universe. But you'd exist at all points simultaneously if you did.
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Nov 27, 2022 02:58
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The warp factor is also not very accurate even when converting to light years, it doesn't help that its a different scale for TOS that was changed when TNG was made. If I remember warp 1 is supposed to be exactly the speed of light, and after that its an exponential but it never really matches the distances and times traveled. In Trek the ship always moves as fast as the plot.
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Nov 27, 2022 03:36
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Organic Lube User posted:Warp 10 is an asymptote that it's impossible to reach because it would require all of the energy in the universe. But you'd exist at all points simultaneously if you did. For a small blip, everything in the universe was Tom Paris.
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Nov 27, 2022 03:55
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HD DAD posted:For a small blip, everything in the universe was Tom Paris. Nah, he must have just hallucinated that. The universe still stands so he never hit warp 10.
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Nov 27, 2022 04:27
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Tiberius Christ posted:The warp factor is also not very accurate even when converting to light years, it doesn't help that its a different scale for TOS that was changed when TNG was made. If I remember warp 1 is supposed to be exactly the speed of light, and after that its an exponential but it never really matches the distances and times traveled. In Trek the ship always moves as fast as the plot. I don't think TOS even had a scale, just numbers they put in the script. Most of the stuff the Okudas codified in TNG were for consistency of setting
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Nov 27, 2022 05:58
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HD DAD posted:For a small blip, everything in the universe was Tom Paris. That's why there's one universal constant: We'll always have Paris.
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Nov 27, 2022 05:59
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Charity Porno posted:I don't think TOS even had a scale, just numbers they put in the script. Most of the stuff the Okudas codified in TNG were for consistency of setting TOS was meant to be cube of the factor.
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Nov 27, 2022 06:03
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Harry Kim: If you need me I'll be in Marseilles His fiance: Why are you going to Marseilles!? Harry Kim: I have to see Paris
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Nov 27, 2022 06:30
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Question for the thread because I've only seen Discovery and the TOS movies: does *all* the Admiraly make bad decisons, or is Discovery just unique in that aspect?
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Nov 28, 2022 03:23
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Twincityhacker posted:Question for the thread because I've only seen Discovery and the TOS movies: does *all* the Admiraly make bad decisons, or is Discovery just unique in that aspect? It's been a fan joke for decades that all Star Trek Admirals are either stupid or corrupt
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Nov 28, 2022 03:29
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Twincityhacker posted:Question for the thread because I've only seen Discovery and the TOS movies: does *all* the Admiraly make bad decisons, or is Discovery just unique in that aspect? Not all, but probably most. TNG is full of them and TOS has at least a couple lovely civilian dignitary types that kinda fill the same roles The more screen time they get, the less likely they are to be outright villainous, even if they still make bad decisions or questionable associations. Forrest was great, Vance is mostly solid, April will probably do no wrong, Ross... well, he made better wartime choices than whatsherface on Disco, at least
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Nov 28, 2022 03:39
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Ross really only had one particularly lovely time.
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Nov 28, 2022 03:43
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