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Threadban Super Deuce if he doesn't chill upon return?
Yes (Goku)
No (also Goku)
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mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Martytoof posted:

Wait, somehow I managed to miss this in all the discussion —

THEY MADE IT UP AS THEY WENT ALONG?!

What even is going on in 2020 jesús christ

As with Discovery, that explains a lot.

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socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


Martytoof posted:

You know, for as advanced a ship as Voyager is supposed to be, every other episode has someone overriding the transporter controls.

You’d think after the ... eighth or ninth time this happened they’d find a way to lock those down a little.

*Enemy ship fires a single shot* our transporters have been knocked out!

Every single late season Voyager episode.

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP




Martytoof posted:

Wait, somehow I managed to miss this in all the discussion —

THEY MADE IT UP AS THEY WENT ALONG?!

What even is going on in 2020 jesús christ

um no i think you'll find that michael chabon won an award so didnt need to do anything else like plan a show out


right deathplague.


you hack fraud birb

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Isn't that pretty common in television? It's not like all the scripts are written before the shooting starts. They finish a script, the script gets shot, and while they're shooting that script, the writers are writing the next script. It's a continuous development cycle.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.



Toilet Rascal

It’s common with shows that have a lot of studio pressure to be good and make money, with multiple execs and writers duking it out to make the most optimized, demographic pleasing (theoretically) product that can prop up a network. Or, in this case, a streaming service. Usually this has the paradoxical effect of it becoming rushed, slapped together, and overall just not good.

Underdog critical darlings that come out of nowhere tend to be much better, since they’re usually passion projects led by one or two creative voices with relatively nothing to lose.

e: Picard has the feel of a project that started as a slower character study in its first two or three episodes. But then CBS saw where it was going, and demanded more space and intrigue. I suspect that’s where the shoehorned Borg subplot that had nothing to do with anything came from. There were reports of extensive reshoots at some point.

HD DAD fucked around with this message at 15:46 on May 31, 2020

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Do you really think Kurtzman and Goldsman need studio pressure to make something flashy, action-oriented, and melodramatic?

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


I remember for ages people would jerk off online about how one of the big benefits of shorter seasons and streaming distribution was supposed to be that writers would have so much more time to plan things out and put more care into writing these big season- and series-long story arcs.

Oops! That wasn't the case at all. Writers are still rushing stupid poo poo out the door at the last minute. This isn't constrained to Trek either; Westworld and Game of Thrones are also great examples. Westworld's got the writers doing dumb last-minute reveals the night before shooting too!

Probably the best thing that can be said about the shorter seasons is that when studios are willing to throw cash at them, they can allow for really glitzy production values.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


My wife and I just finished the Season 6 arc of the Dominion taking over the station and the fight to get it back.

And it's kind of amazing how it's closer to the prestige TV than recent Trek is trying to be. Like, sure, it would be nice to maybe have another few episodes to flesh out Odo's heel turn and redemption, Worf's arc with Alexander, and the experience on Bajor. But I feel like between that and some of the overarching arcs in Next Gen (the Borg, Klingons), there is a clear way to make Star Trek as modern TV work.

Like if you want to have space--Game of Thrones, you can see the seeds for that in older Trek. Picard looked at Game of Thrones and just went with the incest and lovely ending.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

I remember for ages people would jerk off online about how one of the big benefits of shorter seasons and streaming distribution was supposed to be that writers would have so much more time to plan things out and put more care into writing these big season- and series-long story arcs.

Oops! That wasn't the case at all. Writers are still rushing stupid poo poo out the door at the last minute. This isn't constrained to Trek either; Westworld and Game of Thrones are also great examples. Westworld's got the writers doing dumb last-minute reveals the night before shooting too!

Probably the best thing that can be said about the shorter seasons is that when studios are willing to throw cash at them, they can allow for really glitzy production values.

Battlestar Galactica was incredibly rushed and had a shoestring budget for what they were told to deliver and they were making up the detail of their plot as they went along for large parts of it, but it still manages to be some of the best sci-fi ever made because they had a quality team and a really clear vision of what the story was supposed to be about.

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019





Alchenar posted:

Battlestar Galactica was incredibly rushed and had a shoestring budget for what they were told to deliver and they were making up the detail of their plot as they went along for large parts of it, but it still manages to be some of the best sci-fi ever made because they had a quality team and a really clear vision of what the story was supposed to be about.

Actually this.
Picard seems like they started with the premise of JLP having a dog, living on his vineyard and current concerns about AIs being dangerous. Also romulans! Romulans bad.
The rest they were inventing after shooting first three ep.

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 30, 2003




AntherUslessPoster posted:

Actually this.
Picard seems like they started with the premise of JLP having a dog, living on his vineyard and current concerns about AIs being dangerous. Also romulans! Romulans bad.
The rest they were inventing after shooting first three ep.

It is kind of weird how hard they pushed the dog and the vineyard - I think that's like 99% of what we saw before the show actually aired.

What's the biggest plot point you think they pulled out at the last second? IMO Soong was originally supposed to be Lore and they changed it to "no he's OK, but there's a 3rd 4th Soji except with gold skin and she's the bad guy!

(comedy option: the decision to kill Dahj and pivot to Soji was made the day of shooting)

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Snow Cone Capone posted:

It is kind of weird how hard they pushed the dog and the vineyard - I think that's like 99% of what we saw before the show actually aired.

You gotta push the most fan-service-y footage beforehand to assure your viewers that they're about to get what they want! Regardless of reality.

DrNutt
Apr 12, 2007

MyLifeWithTheFutureWarCult




feedmyleg posted:

You gotta push the most fan-service-y footage beforehand to assure your viewers that they're about to get what they want! Regardless of reality.

Given what we know now about the production of the show it's more likely that they just didn't have any other finished footage at that point.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 




It's been so long since I watched it, but I remember Battlestar Galactica faceing the Borg-exposition problem right from the start. I remember the first episode was terrifying -- insane attacks every 33 minutes, no way to defend, just pure madness. But a handful of episodes in you were already like "eh it's the Cylons" and the balloon felt deflated. I don't know if it was ever the intention to make them seem as terrifying subsequently as they were in the first episode, but I distinctly recall the feeling of disappointment at how little I cared about the cylon "threat" a few episodes in.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Martytoof posted:

It's been so long since I watched it, but I remember Battlestar Galactica faceing the Borg-exposition problem right from the start. I remember the first episode was terrifying -- insane attacks every 33 minutes, no way to defend, just pure madness. But a handful of episodes in you were already like "eh it's the Cylons" and the balloon felt deflated. I don't know if it was ever the intention to make them seem as terrifying subsequently as they were in the first episode, but I distinctly recall the feeling of disappointment at how little I cared about the cylon "threat" a few episodes in.

Because the show isn't really about the threat, the show is about dealing with the trauma of having been attacked.

It's not about the Borg, it's about 9/11 and the occupation of Iraq and how to find meaning in your life when the world goes from 'end of history' 90's to the foreverwar 00's.

e: \/\/ I totally get you, ''33" was absolutely starting off by setting a bar nobody could reasonably hope to maintain.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 1, 2020

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 




That's what I figured, but the adrenaline from the first episode really put me in a mood for a type of show and the rest didn't deliver. It was still good TV, don't get me wrong, but the remainder of the show felt wanting by comparison.

e: It was still good TV until the last season, I mean.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 22 days!


Battlestar Galactica started going down the tubes early in Season 3. It was very sad, because if they actually had the show plotted out like they suggested every episode in the intro credits, the nuke going off and time skip would have been a genius half-way mark on the show.

adhuin
Sep 15, 2008

Rugged and authoritative looking



You. Could argue that season 2 was messier than season 1. It was still good, but it all started unravel then.

On season 1, I could believe they had a plan.

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019





adhuin posted:

I could believe they had a plan.

They had a plan.

It is stated in the intro credits

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

If you aren't listening to Battlestar Galacticast I really recommend it. They dive a lot into what the show is about and what was and wasn't planned and how things were both made up on the fly but it was okay because, as I say, if you know what the soul of the show is about then it's pretty easy to make things up on the fly.

Back to Picard as an example: there's a 'chateau Picard/Redlettermedia' version of the show which is about Picard trying to come to terms with being retired and guilt over Data's death. This is easy enough and retreads old territory for Trek - the entire original series set of movies is about old people trying to come to terms with not being young. There's a 'Picard has to go to the Borg cube and re-confront his old trauma' version of the show. There's 'Picard is caught up in a conspiracy between different factions of Romulans'. Then there's 'are artificial people really people?' I think anyone reading this thread could sketch out a (bad) 8 episode episode arc that stuck to one of those story threads, and I think a professional writer and show-runner should be able to make something actually good.

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

At the risk of sounding some some defensive fanboy, I don't know it's fair to attack any of the creatives on the show at being bad at their jobs without knowing exactly what goes down at CBS. People have to put up with all kinds of insane pressures from all different areas to put on a show. Sometimes you just do the best you can with the demands placed on you.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Yes, it doesn't matter what creatives you have attached to a project, in the end it's totally random whether or not any given production will turn out to be good or bad.

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017


Drink-Mix Man posted:

At the risk of sounding some some defensive fanboy, I don't know it's fair to attack any of the creatives on the show at being bad at their jobs without knowing exactly what goes down at CBS. People have to put up with all kinds of insane pressures from all different areas to put on a show. Sometimes you just do the best you can with the demands placed on you.

lol

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001




AntherUslessPoster posted:

They had a plan.

It is stated in the intro credits

The plan to destroy human civilization across 12 planets by the Cavil series to piss off his cylon Mom and Dad.

Drink-Mix Man
Mar 4, 2003

You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

feedmyleg posted:

Yes, it doesn't matter what creatives you have attached to a project, in the end it's totally random whether or not any given production will turn out to be good or bad.

I've worked on projects that were lovely for all kinds of reasons that had nothing to do with the talent level of the people that received the blame.

Didn't you guys read that Michael Pillar "Insurrection" thing?

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Drink-Mix Man posted:

I've worked on projects that were lovely for all kinds of reasons that had nothing to do with the talent level of the people that received the blame.

Same. But I've never worked on any projects which succeeded with incompetent leadership. Goldsman and Kurtzman have laughable track records.

xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

feedmyleg posted:

Same. But I've never worked on any projects which succeeded with incompetent leadership. Goldsman and Kurtzman have laughable track records.

Fringe was alright.

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT



Drink-Mix Man posted:

At the risk of sounding some some defensive fanboy, I don't know it's fair to attack any of the creatives on the show at being bad at their jobs without knowing exactly what goes down at CBS. People have to put up with all kinds of insane pressures from all different areas to put on a show. Sometimes you just do the best you can with the demands placed on you.

I'm sure Akiva Goldsman did his very best on Batman and Robin, and Jonah Hex, and the Paranormal Activities sequels. drat those CBS executives.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Drink-Mix Man posted:

I've worked on projects that were lovely for all kinds of reasons that had nothing to do with the talent level of the people that received the blame.

Didn't you guys read that Michael Pillar "Insurrection" thing?

I've read "Fade-In" more than once and my primary takeaway was that Michael Piller was absolutely the wrong writer for the movie. He was a decent producer for TNG in 1989 but by 1997 I think he was done and needed to move on from Trek.


Like, sure, Patrick Stewart's input didn't help things. But maybe he wouldn't have felt so compelled to give input if Piller had had a more compelling treatment to offer in the first place.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


And, sure, at the end of the day we can blame Berman for being so lazy or up his own rear end or whatever that he couldn't be bothered to try and find other writers for the TNG movies (dude called Maurice Hurley to give one of the two(!) pitches for Generations for gently caress sake) but it doesn't mean that Piller didn't do a good job.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


xerxus posted:

Fringe was alright.

Fringe was great.

Gonz
Dec 22, 2009

"Jesus, did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me?"


Most, if not all, of Fringe was great. There was some meh mixed in there.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






The last season was a bit meh but overall Fringe was great.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Eighties ZomCom posted:

The last season was a bit meh but overall Fringe was great.



Final season felt like a completely different show, and didn’t really fit.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





The_Doctor posted:



Final season felt like a completely different show, and didn’t really fit.
Agreed 100%

I never bought into the idea that all of a sudden the Observers were now malevolent and willing to just take over everything

A4R8
Feb 28, 2020



When is discovery getting canceled?

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



Grimey Drawer

A4R8 posted:

When is discovery getting canceled?

It's the only thing people subscribe to CBS all access for (unless you're one of the four people really interested in random reruns of the Andy Griffith show) so likely never.

They renewed it for a third season already. It'll likely be in production for S4 by the time they know how people receive the changes they made for S3. Now, if Star Trek: Whatever the Pike show is called comes out and does significantly, orders of magnitude better than STD does it might not get picked up for a fifth season.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





S3 was supposed to be out by now but the post-production got delayed by COVID. Apparently the music work is being done remote so that they can get this out at some point.

xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

There's a person with a good track record with alleged sources in Secret Hideout (Kurtzmanns production company) that says Discovery has been renewed for Season 4 and 5 (going to be shot back to back.) for 10 episodes each.

It makes sense to me considering there's like 18 months between shooting seasons and it seems like a huge waste of to keep sets idle.

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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


A4R8 posted:

When is discovery getting canceled?

Not soon, I hope. I'm a lot more interested in Discovery than Picard.

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