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Thom12255
Feb 23, 2013


Discovery is at least doing something interesting now, Picard sure didn't even though they hyped it up as being a unique show.

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The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Frakes has said heís directing some Strange New Worlds episodes.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



Torrannor posted:

Not soon, I hope. I'm a lot more interested in Discovery than Picard.

At this point I may be the same. DISCO is going all out into the far future, creating new canon. This is something I have wanted from Star Trek since the end of Voyager. They could tell some really neat stories and set up a whole new worldbuilding experience.

I am very eager for Pike, but that is 90% Anson Mount, 9% Number One and Spock, and 1% anything else. I am over prequels, and if it wasn't for how great Mount's Pike was I would have zero interest. poo poo, if you have Archives you could see I wasn't happy with Enterprise being a prequel 20 years ago!

The more I reflect on Picard, the less enamored I am of it as time passes. The ending of turning Picard into a human cylon, but one with frailty and aging (so basically zero change) leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It was just a way to do a big shocking death and then take it back. That started with in TWOK but the original intention was that it was permenant. The Picard one just seems tacky. Also the cool stuff like the former Borg, Romulan refugees, and Acting Captain William Riker goes basically nowhere and there's a lot of dumb poo poo. Hopefully it will improve.

If I were the DISCO writers I would go through some of the schlocky old school "travel to the far future post apoc" fiction and watch it, then pull out the genuinely cool concepts while weeding out the lame. In stuff like Planet if the Apes (including the tv show and cartoon), Buck Rogers, Andromeda, and others you can find interesting premises and ideas when you remove outdated storytelling and bad episodes. Put that through a modern lens.

Andromeda for example, had amazing detailed worldbuilding and backstory. The premise was cool. They did a great first season but quickly lost their way and abandoned the series concept. DISCO could do season after season of exploring broken former Federation societies and trying to bring them into the fold. Create a New Federation in a new time that would inspire people.

There are temptations the writers must avoid though. One is to do what Andromeda did and wrap that story up as a one season MacGuffin--which is what they did with their first 2 seasons on DISCO. They also should try to do stories that are reflective of modern problems without hitting you over the head with 9/11 ALLEGORY or THIS IS JUST LIKE TRUMP. Real morality stories are timeless and can be viewed years later and not seem specific or dated. A good example is the DS9 episodes that presaged 9/11 but in retrospect could bave been written after. They were telling a story that is not specific and always relevant.*



































*Which of course is DON'T TRUST SHAPESHIFTERS!

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Yeah the more I have thought about Picard since it finished, the less I like it

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

They smelled of pubs, and Wormwood Scrubs, and too many right-wing meetings.

So I twatted them with a magic yo-yo. Because, hell, why not?


"We're going back to some of Gene Roddenberry's own concepts for Discovery season 3, what with adventurers finding themselves in an anarchic far future. Say hello to... Captain Dylan Hunt!" [beat] "No, the other Dylan Hunt."

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019

Universe existed for 13.8 billion years before humans and will exist for trillions years more after the last human is forgotten.
So what was your problem again?


FlamingLiberal posted:

Yeah the more I have thought about Picard since it finished, the less I like it

Snorb
Nov 19, 2010


If Picard ended with that shot of Picard and Data dissolving into stardust, I'd be a lot less irritated about it.

Instead, we got "Oh, by the way, we Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V'd your brain into a robot body and you're just a robot who thinks he's Picard." Which is still marginally better than "Hey, we blew up the Xindi superweapon, and Earth is saved! ...Whaddya mean, 'we're in 1944 and the loving Nazis took over Earth???'"

Simiain
Dec 13, 2005

"BAM! The ole fork in the eye!!"

I'm going to beat a dead horse and repeat what I posted a little ways up. I'm halfway thru season 2 of The Expanse, having just finished the episode where Miller seeks out a terrified Julie Mao/proto-molecule/living-asteroid-ship, before sacrificing himself to bond with her as part of the asteroid/ship and piloting it into Venus, something that entails ceding control of a flotilla of nuclear missiles originally bound to destroy said asteroid-ship to an ex-army general with ties to a terrorist/liberation movement during a time of white-hot tensions between Mars and Earth.

I'm wary of filling up the Trek thread with too much Expanse, but the narrative threads alone are qualitatively better than anything even considered for Picard, let alone how they were intricately and logically married in this episode, with characters that the audience has grown an affinity for and who have been allowed to develop naturally. I feel like I do The Expanse a huge disservice in even comparing it to Picard, as I did when I sat through the final scenes of that episode, heartbreaking and wonderful as they were, and as the credits rolled in silence allowed my thoughts to wander back there and I said aloud 'Holy loving poo poo Picard sucked' (or words to that effect).

Picard really was such a loving failure of a show.

TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018


Snorb posted:

If Picard ended with that shot of Picard and Data dissolving into stardust, I'd be a lot less irritated about it.

Instead, we got "Oh, by the way, we Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V'd your brain into a robot body and you're just a robot who thinks he's Picard." Which is still marginally better than "Hey, we blew up the Xindi superweapon, and Earth is saved! ...Whaddya mean, 'we're in 1944 and the loving Nazis took over Earth???'"

I kind of liked that Manny Coto hated the time travel plot so much that "eh you blew up some nazi alien things, temporal cold war over" was the followup to that. After spending two seasons being like "oh man, time travel is complicated,you've seen me die but cmon, time travel weirdness" you get daniels just being like "yeah you fixed everything by blowing up some nazis, my work is done"

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



Snorb posted:

If Picard ended with that shot of Picard and Data dissolving into stardust, I'd be a lot less irritated about it.

Instead, we got "Oh, by the way, we Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V'd your brain into a robot body and you're just a robot who thinks he's Picard." Which is still marginally better than "Hey, we blew up the Xindi superweapon, and Earth is saved! ...Whaddya mean, 'we're in 1944 and the loving Nazis took over Earth???'"

I will never forgive them for not showing how they got to the past.

Like they just flew off alongside a Xindi ship, said "OK, seeya!" and flew to Earth. And then it was Alternate 1944.

No wormhole, no temporal anomaly, nothing.

Did that Xindi ship end up in 1944 too?

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Astroman posted:

I will never forgive them for not showing how they got to the past.

Like they just flew off alongside a Xindi ship, said "OK, seeya!" and flew to Earth. And then it was Alternate 1944.

No wormhole, no temporal anomaly, nothing.

Did that Xindi ship end up in 1944 too?

I mean, we don't know what mechanism got them to the past, but we know Daniels did it.

"PHLOX: Captain Archer is dead. He was on the Xindi weapon when it exploded. Are you responsible for sending us back in time? (Daniels nods feebly) "

And Daniels had taken Archer through time in a previous episode using future technology. So the answer is "29th century time travel magic". In TNG, we don't know how Q sent them to Sherwood Forest, or how Kevin Uxbridge committed genocide on the Husnock either. It's not really important to the story.

Sir Nose
Mar 28, 2009


Simiain posted:

I'm going to beat a dead horse and repeat what I posted a little ways up. I'm halfway thru season 2 of The Expanse, having just finished the episode where Miller seeks out a terrified Julie Mao/proto-molecule/living-asteroid-ship, before sacrificing himself to bond with her as part of the asteroid/ship and piloting it into Venus, something that entails ceding control of a flotilla of nuclear missiles originally bound to destroy said asteroid-ship to an ex-army general with ties to a terrorist/liberation movement during a time of white-hot tensions between Mars and Earth.

I'm wary of filling up the Trek thread with too much Expanse, but the narrative threads alone are qualitatively better than anything even considered for Picard, let alone how they were intricately and logically married in this episode, with characters that the audience has grown an affinity for and who have been allowed to develop naturally. I feel like I do The Expanse a huge disservice in even comparing it to Picard, as I did when I sat through the final scenes of that episode, heartbreaking and wonderful as they were, and as the credits rolled in silence allowed my thoughts to wander back there and I said aloud 'Holy loving poo poo Picard sucked' (or words to that effect).

Picard really was such a loving failure of a show.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.



Simiain posted:

I'm halfway thru season 2 of The Expanse
The show is phenomenal and you are at one of the peaks of the show as a whole (there are a few, I refuse to say the show gets "better or worse" at any point so as not to spoil you) so that comparison is, actually, very harsh against Picard. You're using an all-time best moment in television that was written for an RPG campaign -> novel with more time, effort, and quality than Picard was ever given the chance to have. I don't think a good version of Picard could have been comparable due to the sheer amount of lead-up work that Expanse moment had behind it.

But yes everyone here should watch The Expanse.

Simiain
Dec 13, 2005

"BAM! The ole fork in the eye!!"

DaveKap posted:

The show is phenomenal and you are at one of the peaks of the show as a whole (there are a few, I refuse to say the show gets "better or worse" at any point so as not to spoil you) so that comparison is, actually, very harsh against Picard. You're using an all-time best moment in television that was written for an RPG campaign -> novel with more time, effort, and quality than Picard was ever given the chance to have. I don't think a good version of Picard could have been comparable due to the sheer amount of lead-up work that Expanse moment had behind it.

But yes everyone here should watch The Expanse.

I'm half with you, it IS a wee bit unfair to compare that moment to the season of Picard as a whole. But I could just as easily compare the way in which the respective crews are put together, in The Expanse it happens naturally in a series of contingent events over time that throws together disparate characters into a ship and over time forges them into a crew that the audience feels affinity and sympathy for. This happens over the course of the first few episodes and is kind of a continuous process that never reaches an 'endpoint' as such. Its not 'peak TV' or anything, its just competent writers introducing characters in a competent way. The comparison with Picard is stark, and obviously not very flattering.

Is it an unfair comparison as a whole though? I'm not sure. Picard was touted to viewers as the same kind of thoughtful, existential 'prestige' sci-fi drama that The Expanse is, plainly the writers have sought to inject the affectation of political intrigue and sweary edge to it, and the final denouement with regard to Picard's mortality and his relationship with Data was evidently seeking to pack the same kind of emotional and narrative punch as the moment I cited in The Expanse.

Its not so much the fact that The Expanse is a brilliant show, more that the ways in which it excels highlighted in flashing neon red how Picard managed to absolutely clownshoe every loving one of its narrative beats.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Last time I checked Picard was drawing on decades of Star Trek media [Not just the TNG show and movies, it pulls some Voyager in there too] to lay it's foundation and create a shorthand. Practically every element of Picard can have a "Remember <thing>?" tag from something in TNG or Voyager next to it, none of it had to do it's setting building on it's own. Nominally this should allow for 80% of their work to be pure characterization and plotting.

And *this* is the show we got even with them constantly riffing from previous works.

The fact other sci-fi shows out now are kicking the poo poo out of it is an entirely fair comparison. It's not doing it's own thing, and it doesn't get to be judged as if it were.

Thom12255
Feb 23, 2013


They were saying for months before release that they had a 'plan' for 3 seasons worth of content for the show when it's super clear they absolutely don't.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



Epicurius posted:

I mean, we don't know what mechanism got them to the past, but we know Daniels did it.

"PHLOX: Captain Archer is dead. He was on the Xindi weapon when it exploded. Are you responsible for sending us back in time? (Daniels nods feebly) "

And Daniels had taken Archer through time in a previous episode using future technology. So the answer is "29th century time travel magic". In TNG, we don't know how Q sent them to Sherwood Forest, or how Kevin Uxbridge committed genocide on the Husnock either. It's not really important to the story.

True, but it flies in the face of established storytelling in the Trek universe: every other intance of time travel was accompanied with some sort of visual sfx cues.

It would be as if phasers were suddenly in one episode invisible beams where a guy on the bridge pushes a button and we see an enemy ship blow up for no apparent reason. And then next episode they are green beams again.

apatheticman
May 13, 2003



Wedge Regret

Star Trek is basically wrestling, its fans expect so much more without a hint as to why or how.

The only narratively successful version (DS9) was only successful because no one was paying attention.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

The thing I love about season one of The Expanse is they spend 3 episodes introducing the crew and then (an episode 4 spoiler) BAM they kill off one of them and suddenly you think it's possible nobody is safe.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 14, 2020

Epicurius
Apr 10, 2010


College Slice

Astroman posted:

True, but it flies in the face of established storytelling in the Trek universe: every other intance of time travel was accompanied with some sort of visual sfx cues.

I mean, sometimes, and sometimes you had the beginning the episode "Assignment Earth", which started:

quote:

Captain's log. Using the lightspeed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century. We are now in extended orbit around Earth, using our ship's deflector shields to remain unobserved. Our mission, historical research. We are monitoring Earth communications to find out how our planet survived desperate problems in the year 1968.

Or Captain's Holiday, where the bad guys are from the future, and they just show up. They don't pop into existence. They just show up and say "We're from the future".

My point being, there's a long tradition in Star Trek of halfassing it.

Would it actually have been a better episode if, instead of Daniels saying he brought them back in time, he said, "I brought you back in time using a inverse temporal depolarizer, but they won't be invented until the 26th century."

Epicurius fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jun 14, 2020

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

I liked the small running gag of Daniels just glossing over time travel weirdness and trying not to talk about it.

ďDidnít you die?Ē

ďEh more or less. Anyway...Ē

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Thom12255 posted:

They were saying for months before release that they had a 'plan' for 3 seasons worth of content for the show when it's super clear they absolutely don't.

I dunno, if they were planning to rip off the Mass Effect series, they've got another two games/seasons!

xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Thom12255 posted:

They were saying for months before release that they had a 'plan' for 3 seasons worth of content for the show when it's super clear they absolutely don't.

[citations needed]

There were talks that Stewart would be willing to do 3 seasons, but I have not read anything direct that says they have a plan.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."



Yo, you want to stop spoiling other series in the Trek thread?

The_Doctor fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jun 15, 2020

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 30, 2003
MANGOSTEEN CHUGGER


He edited it so maybe you should too

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


The_Doctor posted:

Yo, you want to stop spoiling other series in the Trek thread?

The episode he mentioned was on over four years ago.

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



Grimey Drawer

Tiggum posted:

The episode he mentioned was on over four years ago.

The length of time until you can stop spoiler warning things debate never gets old.*


Rosebud was his childhood sled


*I'm on your side on this btw. If they wanted to see the show they could have by now.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Thatís a very weak argument. Iím watching Babylon 5 for the first time, and posting in its own thread. People there are cool about not posting spoilers for a nearly 30 year old show.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


The_Doctor posted:

Thatís a very weak argument. Iím watching Babylon 5 for the first time, and posting in its own thread. People there are cool about not posting spoilers for a nearly 30 year old show.

Well, it's nice of them to accommodate you in that way. Expecting everyone to do that all the time everywhere you go is loving ridiculous.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

I mean I've gone back and edited it now, but my view was that the 'spoiler' in question was so incredibly vague and so obvious to anyone looking at the current cast list of the show that it was in the form of 'drama happens in this drama show'. And as others have pointed out, it kinda detracts from the outrage if you quote the spoiler in question in your post so it's there twice.

Anyway, Modern Star Trek wants gravitas but also wants to be Doctor Who and have zero consequences for anyone so obviously it compares poorly against shows in which 'things happen'

Thom12255
Feb 23, 2013


xerxus posted:

[citations needed]

There were talks that Stewart would be willing to do 3 seasons, but I have not read anything direct that says they have a plan.

It was Patrick that said it but he was in the writers room and has a huge say over the direction of the show, he seemed to be already pretty set for at least 3 seasons of story.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/02/04/pa...-three-seasons/

quote:

Addressing the possibility of returning to do another Star Trek feature film, Stewart noted the focus for now is on the show and added some more clarity as to the plans for the series, giving a specific number of seasons planned:

"Oh lord, we are set up for possibly three years of this show, so if there is a film, itís a long way off."

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



In some interviews with the producers of Picard, they are hinting that S2 will involve more Starfleet than the first season. They also left the door open for Spiner to potentially return as Soongís son if they decide they want to use him in a story.

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 


I hope they're edgy and swear some more

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


I want a remake of Balance of Terror or Best of Both Worlds just using the words gently caress and motherfucker like that one scene in The Wire

Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 


I want them to go back and digitally add a crewmember yelling OH SHIIIIIIIT FUUUUUCK as they get tumbled around in every TNG scene where the bridge is rocked by an attack

I would settle for the Wilhelm scream

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Canít believe they produced a 16 year oldís edgy fanfiction.net submission from 2000 as season one of Picard.

Hipster_Doofus
Dec 20, 2003

Lovin' every minute of it.

Snorb posted:

If Picard ended with that shot of Picard and Data dissolving into stardust, I'd be a lot less irritated about it.

Instead, we got "Oh, by the way, we Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V'd your brain into a robot body and you're just a robot who thinks he's Picard." Which is still marginally better than "Hey, we blew up the Xindi superweapon, and Earth is saved! ...Whaddya mean, 'we're in 1944 and the loving Nazis took over Earth???'"

Alien Nazis. It wouldn't have been nearly as bad if not for that. It would still be bad.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

How does Soong have a son when his wife was a robot?

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





Animal-Mother posted:

How does Soong have a son when his wife was a robot?

Well if Data was Fully Functional...

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Martytoof
Feb 25, 2003

 
 


Animal-Mother posted:

How does Soong have a son when his wife was a robot?

Space hookers, duh.

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