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Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

Facebook Aunt posted:

They should hand Discovery over to David Cronenberg, that guy gets it.

All the sex & violence the executives want for Nu Trek but with a sense of humour and also real hosed up

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Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

nine-gear crow posted:

Not Mr. Robot, but the guy behind 12 Monkeys. Either way, a giant improvement over Michael Chabon at least.

Either one would be nice, both of those shows were great.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

i like cats


Royal Updog posted:

All the sex & violence the executives want for Nu Trek but with a sense of humour and also real hosed up

Imagine what he could do with ships that have Voyager's bioneural gel packs.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

hail the new trek

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

Wheeee posted:

Discovery is an insanely stupid and mean-spirited show

Between Picard and Discovery I'm pretty well convinced that, despite liking Pike and his first officer, there will not be a good Star Trek again any time soon if ever

it's because tng and stuff were profoundly optamistic

the federation is no longer our imagined future, we want and deserve fallout or the walking dead as our fiction

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





Imagine directing your first ever tv episode and then Cronenberg the god walks in for scene.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Vasukhani posted:

it's because tng and stuff were profoundly optamistic

the federation is no longer our imagined future, we want and deserve fallout or the walking dead as our fiction

Humanity has kind of collectively realized that we've irreparably hosed ourselves into inevitable extinction through climate change, overpopulation, and unchecked capitalism and neither the will nor the capability exists to do anything about it. So the optimistic haze of the 80s and 90s has evaporated into miserable nihilism as we slowly process the five stages of grief for our species writ large.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

nine-gear crow posted:

Humanity has kind of collectively realized that we've irreparably hosed ourselves into inevitable extinction through climate change, overpopulation, and unchecked capitalism and neither the will nor the capability exists to do anything about it. So the optimistic haze of the 80s and 90s has evaporated into miserable nihilism as we slowly process the five stages of grief for our species writ large.

https://twitter.com/Merman_Melville/status/1364000670760669184

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

nine-gear crow posted:

Humanity has kind of collectively realized that we've irreparably hosed ourselves into inevitable extinction through climate change, overpopulation, and unchecked capitalism and neither the will nor the capability exists to do anything about it. So the optimistic haze of the 80s and 90s has evaporated into miserable nihilism as we slowly process the five stages of grief for our species writ large.

Lol if you think most people have even had a quarter of that thought let alone "realized" anything

idiocracy is looking like too optimistic if a future to be real at this point

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

nine-gear crow posted:

Humanity has kind of collectively realized that we've irreparably hosed ourselves into inevitable extinction through climate change, overpopulation, and unchecked capitalism and neither the will nor the capability exists to do anything about it. So the optimistic haze of the 80s and 90s has evaporated into miserable nihilism as we slowly process the five stages of grief for our species writ large.
It's funny how we were all optimistic during our most wasteful times when everything was just trucked to a big hole in the ground and burned, but we're all pessimists now that we've got a ton of global regulations and green energy options. There might be a swing back to optimism once Boomers all die out, because I think that lack of will and capacity you're talking about has a lot to do with that.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



sticklefifer posted:

There might be a swing back to optimism once Boomers all die out

Speaking as a Gen-X, I have some bad news for you about the next generation waiting to take the stage as cranky old seniors.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008


Wheeee posted:

Discovery is an insanely stupid and mean-spirited show

Between Picard and Discovery I'm pretty well convinced that, despite liking Pike and his first officer, there will not be a good Star Trek again any time soon if ever

Watch Lower Decks, exclusively. It is very good.

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

I mean, the original series was during Vietnam and the Cold war, not to mention like, 1968 and yet it contained direct reference to the cold war being idiotic primitive squabbling.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

Powered Descent posted:

Speaking as a Gen-X, I have some bad news for you about the next generation waiting to take the stage as cranky old seniors.
Gen-X never thought they'd live long enough to be old and cranky in the first place. They're a good deal more supportive of younger generations (and created the Millennial participation trophies Boomers always bitch about). The zeitgeist was snarky mistrust of government/authority, counterculture turning mainstream, and the realization that hard work doesn't actually get you ahead, so I don't see the same "gently caress you got mine" Boomer sentiment incoming.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



sticklefifer posted:

Gen-X never thought they'd live long enough to be old and cranky in the first place. They're a good deal more supportive of younger generations (and created the Millennial participation trophies Boomers always bitch about). The zeitgeist was snarky mistrust of government/authority, counterculture turning mainstream, and the realization that hard work doesn't actually get you ahead, so I don't see the same "gently caress you got mine" Boomer sentiment incoming.

I once ran across a notion that I think is fairly accurate: GenX doesn't actually have an identity of its own. (This at least fits with the whole cynical, disaffected thing we had going during the 90s: oh well, whatever, never mind.) Instead there's a line right down the middle, approximately at birth year 1973. Those older than that are really just Boomers Junior; those younger are essentially Elder Millennials.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Epicurius posted:

It seems like TOS didn't really? Like, the core crew of TOS was Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. You had other characters....Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, and they got some characterization, but none of them were particularly important or fleshed out. Uhura and Sulu didn't even have first names.

You mean the show made in the 1960's prominently showing a Japanese man, a Russian man, and not just a black person but a black woman in key authoritative positions on a prestigious starship every single episode?

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Mayweather got more focus in the first season of Enterprise than Uhura and Sulu combined in the whole run of TOS. A big chunk of the work expanding their personalities and traits came later in the TOS films.

Representationís great and absolutely necessary, and yeah it was a network show in the 60s, but Star Trek loves to retroactively pat itself on the back for doing the bare minimum.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Big Mean Jerk posted:

Mayweather got more focus in the first season of Enterprise than Uhura and Sulu combined in the whole run of TOS. A big chunk of the work expanding their personalities and traits came later in the TOS films.

Representationís great and absolutely necessary, and yeah it was a network show in the 60s, but Star Trek loves to retroactively pat itself on the back for doing the bare minimum.

Yeah, Nichelle Nichols was going to bounce on Star Trek after (possibly even during) Season 1 because she felt like a glorified extra and had to be talked out of it by Martin Luther King, Jr. himself of all people.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Powered Descent posted:

I once ran across a notion that I think is fairly accurate: GenX doesn't actually have an identity of its own. (This at least fits with the whole cynical, disaffected thing we had going during the 90s: oh well, whatever, never mind.) Instead there's a line right down the middle, approximately at birth year 1973. Those older than that are really just Boomers Junior; those younger are essentially Elder Millennials.

Millennials have a fairly similar line down the middle: the early ones are '90's kids' who grew up with super Nintendos and 4:3 TV (and an optimistic general atmosphere about the future of the world) who have a lot more in common with those 80s kids you called elder Millennials: and then the later ones who grew up more and had their formative years more in the 2000s have more on common with the early zoomers. There's an argument to be made that the best place to put the generation dividing lines are just off by a decade.

(No place will be ideal, of course, because it's all a drat continuum, but there are major cultural shifts and events that change the atmosphere of how people grew up.)

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Feb 23, 2021

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Strictly defined Generations are mostly marketing bullshit anyway, and the incredible FYGM attitude among Boomer-aged people is just a byproduct of growing up with pre-68/Vietnam/Watergate American entitlement more than anything.

BonHair
Apr 28, 2007

Welcome to the machine

Big Mean Jerk posted:

Mayweather got more focus in the first season of Enterprise than Uhura and Sulu combined in the whole run of TOS. A big chunk of the work expanding their personalities and traits came later in the TOS films.

Representation’s great and absolutely necessary, and yeah it was a network show in the 60s, but Star Trek loves to retroactively pat itself on the back for doing the bare minimum.

It may not have been much by our standards, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't nothing in the 60s compared to other shows. Whoopi Goldberg cites Uhura as a personal inspiration for instance. I'm pretty sure MLK saw how much good just having a black woman on screen could do, even if she wasn't a main character in any sense. Just the occasional line and not being treated as a servant/criminal was probably very offensive to some people.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


Iím not saying it was nothing, just that they could have done more beyond just the basic representation. And itís something the franchise still struggles with, to an extent. Letís not forget that even Discovery brutally murdered one half of their first openly gay couple before the first season was even finished and still didnít bother fleshing Culber out (beyond ďheís a doctorĒ or ďheís Paulís husbandĒ) as a real character until this past season.

BonHair
Apr 28, 2007

Welcome to the machine

Garek was bi and obviously had a relationship with his mentor

One thing I actually really love about Stamets and Culber is that then being gay is not a plot point at all. Except for the plot twist reveal of their relationship, it isn't a topic at all. That's pretty cool in terms of not treating gay people as just a plot device. Characterization isn't really a strong suit of Discovery overall, so it's not so much the lack of representation that's wrong there, just the general writing.

I'm not saying Trek couldn't do better, but I think it's pretty good for the mainstream television field, especially TOS and TNG. Those pushed the envelope while not alienating viewers. Discovery seems a bit weak, but it doesn't help that it's all about Michael (who is a black woman, but that is thankfully not very spectacular at this point).

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






BonHair posted:

Garek was bi and obviously had a relationship with his mentor

Mentor?

BonHair
Apr 28, 2007

Welcome to the machine


It's been too long since I watched DS9, and a quick skim of memory alpha didn't help. I definitely remember him having a past boyfriend, but I could be wrong.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






You sure you didn't get confused with Tain? Was his 'mentor' for a long time until we learned he was his father.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





If he had one it definitely was not in the main series and was only expanded upon in the novels because the female-female kiss in the mirror universe was at that point the most gay inclusive thing in the entire Star Trek universe

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


People seriously overstating how optimistic tng era trek was compared to the modern stuff. I never watched old-trek, but almost every admiral in mid-trek was either a warmonger, corrupt, a fascist, a traitor or tyrant. The federation had a CIA analogue that went around murdering people and starting wars. Also, regarding that torture scene in nu-trek, TNG had two episodes of torture scenes where they hanged a beaten old naked man from the ceiling and tortured him.

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

Brush your teeth.


Big Mean Jerk posted:

Strictly defined Generations are mostly marketing bullshit anyway, and the incredible FYGM attitude among Boomer-aged people is just a byproduct of growing up with pre-68/Vietnam/Watergate American entitlement more than anything.

+ also leaded petrol

Martian
May 29, 2005

They clean me with a Brillo Pad


Grimey Drawer

Big Mean Jerk posted:

Reed is definitely treated better than Mayweather. Reed has the shuttlepod episode, Minefield, the pineapple episode, and his rivalry with the MACO dude. Mayweather only has the episode where he goes home to the freighter and... thatís pretty much it.

I guess the stuff with the Earth reporter too, but thatís still only a small subplot in a couple of later episodes.

You're right, he as more screentime than I remembered from the top of my head. However I feel the pineapple episode is as much about Hoshi as it is about Reed and makes him seem kind of weird, the shuttlepod is more about Trip and makes Reed look kinda creepy and cowardly in comparison, and the rivalry with the MACO dude makes him look childish and incompetent, he's just flat out wrong there from the start. Although I will admit he learns and grows a bit in that arc. I forgot about Minefield, that's a good one, although even there Archer has to save his rear end.

So perhaps it is more about how he is treated than about the screentime. In the episode with the Enterprise from the future they even make sure to point out that Reed is the only one from the seven main characters who remains single in that timeline, much to his dismay. Early on in the show, for example on the Risa episode, it seems like they're making Reed and Trip sort of a best friend duo, but in the rest of the series (so far, I'm not done yet) Reed is just kind of... there. And a little creepy, as noted above, while Trip gets all the girls. Mayweather at least solves his own past issues in his episode and makes up with his brother.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

GABA ghoul posted:

People seriously overstating how optimistic tng era trek was compared to the modern stuff. I never watched old-trek, but almost every admiral in mid-trek was either a warmonger, corrupt, a fascist, a traitor or tyrant. The federation had a CIA analogue that went around murdering people and starting wars. Also, regarding that torture scene in nu-trek, TNG had two episodes of torture scenes where they hanged a beaten old naked man from the ceiling and tortured him.

The Badmirals were the ones we saw because episodes need conflict, and our heroes were not like them. It's funny to joke about the whole admirality being bad but it was never genuinely presented that way.

The "CIA analogue" was not ever in TNG and added in Season 6 of DS9 after TNG ended. It was also a rogue legacy agency that the admirality wasn't even necessarily aware of and was not even officially on the books or anything. It was probably just a handful of people. Very different from the CIA. (This has been partially retconned by DISCO but that actually is rather the point here)

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Also the two-parter torture episode is literally about the ideological and emotional emptiness of fascism.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Also, there was never any waffling about the necessity of S31 in DS9. They were instantly and immediately considered the bad guys. They were Hydra, an enemy which had infiltrated us and needed to be destroyed, not someone who might be doing a necessary evil and making hard choices for us.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Granted, ENT did confirm that 31 was at one point part of Starfleet from a thingy in their Charter, and they absolutely had allies within Starfleet, but yeah, 31 was not a state organ, its a rogue organization.

Odo even comments on how the Federation needed to take more responsibility for 31 specifically BECAUSE they're rogues, since they're directly benefitting from their crimes and ignoring them and/or not taking proactive steps to undo the harm they've done is tantamount to approval.

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


The Bloop posted:

The Badmirals were the ones we saw because episodes need conflict, and our heroes were not like them. It's funny to joke about the whole admirality being bad but it was never genuinely presented that way.

The "CIA analogue" was not ever in TNG and added in Season 6 of DS9 after TNG ended. It was also a rogue legacy agency that the admirality wasn't even necessarily aware of and was not even officially on the books or anything. It was probably just a handful of people. Very different from the CIA. (This has been partially retconned by DISCO but that actually is rather the point here)

I mean, sure, if you only count the non-evil admirals then the admirals are not evil at all. And there was that one story arc where the federation government sold out some of its colonies and citizens to fascist aliens. IRC some of them were even american indian descendents to hammer the point home.

Some of the worst things the CIA did were "rogue" operations. Fact is S31 exists and enjoys substantial ideological and material support in the federation and performs murder and other crimes in its name. That's no very utopian. In general, the federation seems to have some very shady characters running around like that one researcher guy who didn't think that sentient machines should have rights or the one lady who was hot for McCarthyism.

Alchenar posted:

Also the two-parter torture episode is literally about the ideological and emotional emptiness of fascism.

Well, then the eye gouging scene was about the dehumanizing commodification of human life.

MikeJF posted:

Also, there was never any waffling about the necessity of S31 in DS9. They were instantly and immediately considered the bad guys. They were Hydra, an enemy which had infiltrated us and needed to be destroyed, not someone who might be doing a necessary evil and making hard choices for us.

Except in that one episode of DS9 were the protagonist makes the very hard choice of organizing a shady conspiracy to fabricate evidence and murder an ambassador to get the Romulans into the war and we are left with a suspiciously ambiguous message in the end.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

"the Federation" didn't even know about S31, they were a rogue forgotten division of Starfleet, from earth days, not the fed

And the examples you use are also from after TNG ended so are you counting all of DS9 and VOY too as the "tng era" I guess?

Because I don't think anyone was arguing that nothing morally ambiguous ever happened in DS9, but the example I think you are bringing up is maquis separatists living on a world outside fed jurisdiction

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


The Bloop posted:

"the Federation" didn't even know about S31, they were a rogue forgotten division of Starfleet, from earth days, not the fed

Starfleet command knew about, supported and protected them. The most prominent admiral (by Trek standards, one of the Good Admirals) leading the war against the Dominion was one of their assets and they both had hands in the Romulan government and nearly wiped out the Founders.

The theory they were just a handful of rogues pretending they were more important than they actually were has never held up, even before other shows went into more detail about them.

And of course "TNG Era" isn't just TNG, it's TNG through to Enterprise

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

The founders were war criminals a trillion times over and all complicit by virtue of the link, there are no civilian founders other than the scattered children (who are really just changelings not founders)

Also they all have super powers and come from a hidden world

I'm not sure I can think of any remotely real-world parallel. It's completely unlike any war our ethics have considered irl

Also, Picard should have sent that paradox into the borg

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Nah Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges makes pretty clear that once you reach a certain seniority of the Admiralty then you get told 'the reason Starfleet intelligence is a bit poo poo is because that's deliberate, these guys are the real deal and you give them whatever the gently caress they want'.

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BonHair
Apr 28, 2007

Welcome to the machine

MikeJF posted:

You sure you didn't get confused with Tain? Was his 'mentor' for a long time until we learned he was his father.

I probably did. It was probably my younger self reading a bit much into subtext and now I'm remembering that as text.

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