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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Except he wasn't wrong and out of touch, he was repeatedly vindicated by the end of the series. And it was shown going on in the flashbacks as being cool and good as well. And as I myself said it's not intentional but it still winds up there.

Yeah we had this conversation when the show was running. There's plenty of scenes in isolation where its possible to read Picard as being wrong and out of touch, but the show always vindicates him, sometimes in terrible ways.

Take the bar fight on the Romulan refugee planet - one way of looking at it is that Picard is an insensitive grumpy old man who insults the traumatised refugees. The other way of looking at it is that Picard cynically picks a fight with some racists in order to provoke Elnor to kill a guy and join him. Both of those interpretations make Picard look terrible.

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Typical Pubbie
May 10, 2011


Why are people with no prior experience in television given the job of showrunner?

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG!!!




Bleak Gremlin

just started a rewatch of Lower Decks and like usual, the early episodes are a hell of a lot better knowing more about the characters. Its just soo good

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016



Alchenar posted:

Yeah we had this conversation when the show was running. There's plenty of scenes in isolation where its possible to read Picard as being wrong and out of touch, but the show always vindicates him, sometimes in terrible ways.

Take the bar fight on the Romulan refugee planet - one way of looking at it is that Picard is an insensitive grumpy old man who insults the traumatised refugees. The other way of looking at it is that Picard cynically picks a fight with some racists in order to provoke Elnor to kill a guy and join him. Both of those interpretations make Picard look terrible.

It's really weird, because the ending of the show is that Picard dies for the sins of the organics (oppressing the robots that built the Admonition, the synth ban, etc) and comes back to life like Jesus. The more I think about it, the more weird Christ parallels are present. Picard dies offering Soji his life to prevent the demons from devouring the sinful organic life-forms. He goes to the afterlife and has an extremely Catholic chat with Data about how mortality is the most precious thing. We get a montage of all the women wailing over Picard's body, then he miraculously returns to life.

Am I reading too much into this, because it reminds me of Mel Gibson movies?

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



You're not reading too much into it, they may not have consciously been like "WE'LL WRITE IT SO PICARD DIES FOR HUMANITY'S SINS AND THEN IS REBORN AFTER A GNASHING OF TEETH SCENE JUST LIKE OUR LORD JESUS!!!" but general cultural inertia for what's attempting to be a mainstream franchise show in the US makes that kind of inevitable.

And I agree too, there were a lot of points in the show where Picard is wrong and the show seems like it's going to go through with that but then...he's just sort of vindicated anyway?

I mean it's literally the Picard show I wasn't expecting it to be a like a total scouring of Picard's character and life choices or whatever but it really did feel like overkill. Especially at the very end of the season when suddenly they're just, like, his permanent crew now off to do whatever?.

The scene with Romulan refugee planet scene especially. I don't know, Picard isn't a ruthless person but given what they have go down in the leadup to the show and stuff him making a horribly cynical decision now and then and it working but also backfiring or getting other folks hurt in some way wouldn't have been a horrible thing to have or have him called out on and reflect on. It wouldn't be an odd turn for a character that now can't just use the weight of being CAPTAIN Picard wherever he goes that he has to rely on his wits more than ever and that not always being the best result.


The reclaimed Borg cube was my least favorite part of the show - they kept bringing up some interesting concept or new depth to it each time only to immediately brush it aside so Romulan spy siblings could have that exact same conversation with each other every episode. Like the Borg stuff could have been its own season almost or dovetailed more elegantly with the main story being about an android and people being paranoid of synthetic life but it was just this like never-quite-pulling-it-together window dressing instead. Plus Hugh, god dammit why

Anyway building all of that up the point of like, actually everyone was right and synthetic life REALLY DOES want to destroy all organic life was insanely stupid. And it was even more stupid that the beacon worked and the Reapers were summoned and visible through the portal and then the beacon was turned off and.....they left? What? Even that late in the show when they got it working I was thinking wow like are they actually really going to go through with this and change poo poo up in the setting for real? I was excited about that since this is some more post DS9/Voyager stuff but I guess not.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Mar 4, 2021

J33uk
Oct 23, 2005


New Trek has definitely had some very interesting writing issues. Thank god they're not giving the person responsible for the Terra Firma teleplay a movie or something like that.

Cross-Section
Mar 18, 2009



J33uk posted:

New Trek has definitely had some very interesting writing issues. Thank god they're not giving the person responsible for the Terra Firma teleplay a movie or something like that.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




https://twitter.com/SciFiFa26502583/status/1367538518763986944

Well... they're going there I guess.

Typical Pubbie
May 10, 2011


The utter lack of imagination it takes to come up with an "upgrade" like that.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007


Neo Rasa posted:

Like the Borg stuff could have been its own season almost or dovetailed more elegantly with the main story being about an android and people being paranoid of synthetic life but it was just this like never-quite-pulling-it-together window dressing instead.

The Borg stuff could have been its own show.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

There are twenty million ways Picard could have been good and the 30-strong production dream team skillfully managed to evade them all.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Tiggum posted:

The Borg stuff could have been its own show.

That kind of is one of the things that pulls Picard apart is that between DS9, Voyager, Nemesis, and then Trek '09, the Trek universe was left with 20 years worth of both in- and out of-universe messy loose ends and the show felt the need to try and address as many of them as it could on a Prestige TV timeline, so what should have been like one season on the Federation post-Dominion War, one season on the Romulans post-supernova, and then one season the Borg post-Endgame instead tried to do everything at once because they weren't even sure they were gonna get a second season with Patrick Stewart now in his 80s even before COVID came along.

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

star trek is just a show we watch to see how they gently caress it up

they can't make it good because the people who become producers are incapable of understanding what made tos, tng, and ds9 good.

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

Vasukhani posted:

star trek is just a show we watch to see how they gently caress it up

too real

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019

fish for the fish god

nine-gear crow posted:

That kind of is one of the things that pulls Picard apart is that between DS9, Voyager, Nemesis, and then Trek '09, the Trek universe was left with 20 years worth of both in- and out of-universe messy loose ends and the show felt the need to try and address as many of them as it could on a Prestige TV timeline, so what should have been like one season on the Federation post-Dominion War, one season on the Romulans post-supernova, and then one season the Borg post-Endgame instead tried to do everything at once because they weren't even sure they were gonna get a second season with Patrick Stewart now in his 80s even before COVID came along.

Or literally don't directly address anything. It would be like if someone made two novels, one set in 1936, and one in 1966, and they spent most of the time explaining how Hitler was defeated, seeing as that's important to understand the world of 1966.

All of the politics was always just background, and if you notice TNG and stuff very rarely address it besides excuses for the enterprise to go to X and meet with Z, or to set up character dynamics. Moving the timeline along is a terrible focus.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



Typical Pubbie posted:

The utter lack of imagination it takes to come up with an "upgrade" like that.
They're literally throwing in a second Inquiry-class as a substitute for something more interesting. They're staying on-brand, I guess.

Vasukhani posted:

star trek is just a show we watch to see how they gently caress it up

they can't make it good because the people who become producers are incapable of understanding what made tos, tng, and ds9 good.
Except for Lower Decks. McMahan gets it.

Spanish Matlock
Sep 6, 2004

If you want to play the I-didn't-know-this-was-a-hippo-bar game with me, that's fine.

The evil death robots leaving when they turned the beacon off is still pretty dumb. They're supposed to be a super advanced galaxy spanning empire of synthetic life, right? And the beacon was just to let them know that there was synthetic life that was in danger of being exterminated by organics, right?

Were they just like 'Oh, they turned the beacon off. Guess they don't need us anymore."

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

Spanish Matlock posted:

The evil death robots leaving when they turned the beacon off is still pretty dumb. They're supposed to be a super advanced galaxy spanning empire of synthetic life, right? And the beacon was just to let them know that there was synthetic life that was in danger of being exterminated by organics, right?

Were they just like 'Oh, they turned the beacon off. Guess they don't need us anymore."

Galaxy spanning genocide is their profession, but they're kinda lovely at it and will slack off at the slightest excuse

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

"Wanna kill all the humanoids?"
not no, but I have this bag of funions and three days worth of sonic hedgehog rom hack videos to work through, sooo...

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

We'll kill all the humans next week, Fraisers back on Netflix

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




YOU EXIST BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT, AND YOU WILL END... when we get around, okay?

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Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


nine-gear crow posted:

YOU EXIST BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT, AND YOU WILL END... when we get around, okay?

I read it as the beacon being a receiving station for whatever they were using to punch through into local space, and with it gone the whole breach closes because it can't be sustained from the far end alone.


The real answer is, of course, because that's how it happens at the end of Mass Effect.

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