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The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

thrawn527 posted:

It's the act of anyone who can reproduce.

In that souls are merely emergent properties of certain incredibly complex systems, yes

In religious terms, not necessarily

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HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.



Toilet Rascal

Neddy Seagoon posted:

The only reason she didn't resolve it personally is probably because they couldn't contrive it in the script. So, uh... Saru's the next best thing to a main character, Culber's had some screentime and Adira's the new Wesley of the show so we've gotta get them in somehow... *scribbles notes*

I know it’s an unfounded meme at this point, but Martin-Green’s contract has to have some wicked “I am the beginning and end of all plot arcs” clause in it.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


HD DAD posted:

I know it’s an unfounded meme at this point, but Martin-Green’s contract has to have some wicked “I am the beginning and end of all plot arcs” clause in it.

One of the most damning things of Discovery is how fast it falls apart any time it has to go outside of Burnham for story because suddenly the show wants you to care about what've been functionally background scenery for 10-20+ episodes.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Just finally making her properly Captain was probably the right move if they're going to keep focus on her, at least now the focus will centre on her naturally without them having to come up with contrived ways to make her critical.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





MikeJF posted:

Just finally making her properly Captain was probably the right move if they're going to keep focus on her, at least now the focus will centre on her naturally without them having to come up with contrived ways to make her critical.
Yes even though she is probably the person least qualified to hold that position and does not have the discipline to do it either

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



FlamingLiberal posted:

Yes even though she is probably the person least qualified to hold that position and does not have the discipline to do it either

It's not just that, all of her stories have been about putting her in conflict with authority. Once you don't have that storyline (unless you just escalate) what is there to her?

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Alchenar posted:

It's not just that, all of her stories have been about putting her in conflict with authority. Once you don't have that storyline (unless you just escalate) what is there to her?

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



Tiggum posted:

There are two possibilities:
  1. Souls exist. If the new body has the original soul then it's the same person, otherwise it isn't.
  2. Souls don't exist. Individual identity is socially constructed and there is no meaningful difference between an "original" and a "copy". They're both the "real" person if they think of themself that way and are treated as such.

If souls existed, nothing changed. New body, old soul, so what. If souls are a magic thingy that somehow contains the information that makes up your previous body and mental state as to provide a copy to the new body... still a new thing. What happens when you take a soul and put it in someone else's body, do they become one soul, or does Tuvix have two souls? Are we sure souls have any value, or are they just intangible parasites feeding on the life experiences of living beings?

Picard is dead and they mashed an altered copy of some of the memory data from his corpse (temporarily stored and altered in a quantum simulation, along with a reconstructed-simulation) of Data into a new body meant for someone else, but they instead used it to non-consensually make a copy of the dead. Picard died when he died. Copy-of-Picard was born when they cobbled together harvested memories and put it in a framework for consciousness in the sim and then transferred that consciousness to the golem.

Stop erasing Artificial Picard, treat him how he would want to be treated, which happens to be "being treated as if I were Picard as I was created to believe." So, to his face, we treat him like Picard but make no mistake, the Picard we saw in TNG is dead regardless of how many copies are created. Should probably also write some laws to prevent this sort of nightmare poo poo from happening against people's wills and being abused.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Khanstant posted:

Picard died when he died.

Oh word?

The core of your argument is a tautology. Well I say "Picard" is a mental state of becoming and extant roboPicard has full continuity of experience and has every valid claim to being actualPicard

Erulisse
Feb 12, 2019

A bad poster trying to get better.


Khanstant posted:

Should probably also write some laws to prevent this sort of nightmare poo poo from happening against people's wills and being abused.

No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged


The Bloop posted:

Oh word?

The core of your argument is a tautology. Well I say "Picard" is a mental state of becoming and extant roboPicard has full continuity of experience and has every valid claim to being actualPicard

Oh cmon its same argument as with transporters.
Body with consciousness just closes eyes, consciousness shuts down and never comes back. New body opens eyes and, retaining all memories and short term memory, thinks that consciousness transferred. No one will ever know because original consciousness is dead.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

"new consciousness" is a distinction without a difference

A linguistic trap caused by our lack of experience and understanding

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Erulisse posted:

No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged


Oh cmon its same argument as with transporters.
Body with consciousness just closes eyes, consciousness shuts down and never comes back. New body opens eyes and, retaining all memories and short term memory, thinks that consciousness transferred. No one will ever know because original consciousness is dead.

Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!"

She finally shut me up by saying, "How do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep? You close your eyes, you fall asleep. Maybe you die and the you that wakes up is a new you?"

It shut me up...but also made me terrified to go to sleep that night.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!"

She finally shut me up by saying, "How do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep? You close your eyes, you fall asleep. Maybe you die and the you that wakes up is a new you?"

It shut me up...but also made me terrified to go to sleep that night.

Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Powered Descent posted:

Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed.

...god dammit.

Snow Cone Capone
Jul 30, 2003




I always appreciated how The Prestige was like "well actually there is a plausible explanation for the trick but we're not using it, in favor of an elaborate plot device that is both fantastical and deeply hosed up"

Erulisse
Feb 12, 2019

A bad poster trying to get better.


thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!"

She finally shut me up by saying, "How do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep? You close your eyes, you fall asleep. Maybe you die and the you that wakes up is a new you?"

It shut me up...but also made me terrified to go to sleep that night.

The physical body is still there. The brain is still working and electric impulses are still there.
When physical body is deconstructed into energy and then reconstructed its whole other thing, much like with transferring electric impulses of human brains into a positronic construct. Brain, even for a slight moment, stops doing impulses. The consciousness interrupts.

ps
yeah prestige done it gracefully and cool

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



Erulisse posted:

No one will, actually, ever know that until they are damaged


Oh cmon its same argument as with transporters.
Body with consciousness just closes eyes, consciousness shuts down and never comes back. New body opens eyes and, retaining all memories and short term memory, thinks that consciousness transferred. No one will ever know because original consciousness is dead.

What do you mean? I'm saying on your driver's license, got a box for organ donor, now add one for "copy my consciousness from my corpse into a new body achieving some kind of immortality."

The previous consciousness isn't just dead, it's gone, at least from a linear forward-only time perspective. Did they disintegrate Picard's corpse? Could others make copies of him, could something electrify the body in some way to temporarily refire the neurons composing what was once Picard?

Anyway, Picard dies. A copy is harvested from corpse, copy uploaded into quantum simulation. If you believe this is one contiguous Picard, he is now having a true afterlife experience, new experiences and changes from any had in his pre-corpse life.

The Bloop posted:

"new consciousness" is a distinction without a difference

A linguistic trap caused by our lack of experience and understanding

I don't agree there is no difference, consciousness isn't just memories, it isn't stored just in the balls brain. A human person's individuals consciousness is going to have a great deal to do with their physical body, their gut bacteria, all the other things that compose a person. Even if you believe in free will, the factors that determine the choices you make will still necessarily be heavily influenced by factors outside your consciousness. If you use scifi magic to copy a human's memories into a gorilla or an alligator brain, somehow, I do not think I would consider that the same person, who you are and what and how you think/behave has a lot to do with things in the actual body itself.

There is lots of ??? room about consciousness and media isn't beholden to scientific understanding of this poo poo over time, maybe copying consciousness IRL would be basically harmless to the point of it just being inert, maybe we'd discover every consciousness ends up being the exact same way given the same body or set of memory parameters, who knows.

How do y'all figure about Jesus? Picard dies, for picard-contiguiousers he killed someone in the afterlife, then was resurrected in a new body that kind of shows off the glory of Jesus' creator. When Jesus dies, decomposes a little, spends 3 days raising hell in actual hell, then is resurrected and is letting people fingerbang his crucifixion wounds and making em babble at the sight of him and all that -- I can see that being the same Jesus, I think it is meant to be the same body all along, so perhaps a few days decomposition, plus the wounds from cross, but IIRC the scifi that resurrects him does so in the same body, not a copy or a new thing god made to put Jesus' post-resurrection consciousness into, but at the same time the new body did seem to have new properties but possible just more of a visual effect filter for human mortals to see. Few times in previous seasons seeing divine beings directly could sometimes be hazardous or require specific precaution, maybe when Jesus turned the magic up to 11 after self-resurrecting (consensually too, bible definitely gets points over Picard for making Jesus choice to ressurrect be his own choice*, they talked about it a bunch, let others give feedback, very healthy approach in that regard).

*unless it wasn't since it could've been god or holy ghost's choice? bible unclear about the specifics of this arrangement

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Look, if going to bat for the Maquis is a dividing line between having a soul or not, then fuckin' put me down under the soulless minions of orthodoxy.
The actual decision to support them or not and to what degree is pretty interesting to me on multiple levels and for multiple reasons, but that's nowhere near as fun as pretending that Will Riker is just a soulless sex-pest, and the only reason you can tell is that souls are required to properly use chairs.

thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, I became kind of obsessed with the concept after seeing The Prestige back in the day. And I've had this argument with my wife because she says I'm crazy for saying I would never take a transporter if given an opportunity. "But you'd get there faster!" "But I may be dead!" "But you'd never know!" "How is that better? I'd still be dead!" "But you'd get there faster!" "But it wouldn't actually be me!"

She finally shut me up by saying, "How do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep? You close your eyes, you fall asleep. Maybe you die and the you that wakes up is a new you?"

It shut me up...but also made me terrified to go to sleep that night.
I vaguely remember seeing this in the form of a webcomic.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.



The philosophical issues raised by the transporter were best explored by a Canadian cartoon from 1990. Well worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Be_(1990_film)

Tars Tarkas
Apr 13, 2003


I hope Picard is like that episode of What We Do In The Shadows where the vampires all meet their ghosts since they are all technically dead, then Picardobot is now being hounded by Q and Ghost Picard who can't go to Sto-vo-kor until the robot part of his soul also dies.

Will and Tom Riker each have 50% of the original Will Riker's soul and they must be merged together Tuvix style or else he when he goes to Sto-vo-kor with Deanna and their dead son, he'll be transparent and ghostly. Of course, Riker has a problem anyway as Tom Riker is bound for Gre'thor having failed to die honorably in battle and now sitting around in Cardassian jail until Lower Decks or someone saves him. This is why I recommend not getting turned into transporter twins.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Powered Descent posted:

The philosophical issues raised by the transporter were best explored by a Canadian cartoon from 1990. Well worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXKUcsvhQc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Be_(1990_film)

Oh god, I remember watching this when I was a kid, and thinking about it every time this discussion comes up.

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO


If i put you through a blender that blended you as fine a puree that is physically possible, had that puree run through a high pressure pipeline to another location where another machine reconstructed the puree back into yourself, would that be more or less preferable to a Trek transporter? Or The Prestige transporter even?

Chubby Henparty
Aug 13, 2007





Lipstick Apathy

It was splitting into multiple copies ala Doll House or Altered Carbon that really got me on the whole consciousness bit. I always did appreciate that in the latter, the guy sent his copy off to orgy land while he took on the suicide mission.

... So far as he knew.

Retrowave Joe
Jul 20, 2001
Be heroes.

The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions.



The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Powered Descent posted:

Technically, it made someone else terrified to go to sleep that night. You didn't come into existence until this morning, when you woke up in your predecessor's deathbed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kUVmDJ1zB0

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.




Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain?

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Look I'm just a doof shitposting in a star trek thread on a comedy website so take it for what it is

I agree with you that our understanding of gut bacteria (and the fact that a human gut has more neurons than an entire cat brain!) have made the whole brain-in-a-jar thing a lot less plausible, but lets posit that given a sophisticated enough device, like a transporter, or Quark's holosuite+DS9's main computer, all the states that are relevant to a human consciousness can be duplicated or stored or simulated or whatever.

Nobody really knows what all consciousness is and nobody really knows yet if time is truly continuous or granular/discrete/quantized. For the sake of a thought experiment lets just assume that some smallest quantumfemtoplanckinterval exists and I'm just going to call it a tick.

The Prestige kills you idea:
Tick 1: Person A is on the platform
Tick 2: Person B is on the other platform and person A goes bye bye

The transporter kills you idea is the same with a different mechanism.

I think consciousness duplication is more like this:
Tick 1: Person A is on Platform1
Tick 2: Person A is on Platform 1 and Person A is on platform 2
Tick 3: Person B is on Platform 1 and Person C is on platform 2 (or call it Persons Aa and Ab or whatever you like)

At that moment (Tick 2) both consciousnesses have an equal claim at being the original consciousness. After, both still have equal claims at being (descended from) A, just not at being each other because their experiences diverge. So I suppose in some sense the duplicator would still kill you if you care about the label "A" but there isn't anyone who died, there are just two people now. There is no meaningful loss of consciousness to worry about. The question "which one is YOU?" is malformed and based on false pretenses.

This would obviously cause no end of legal and moral questions if it could really happen (jail 2 men for 1 crime?. property rights, contracts, etc)

In summation, Tuvix was murdered and I need to go lie down.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003






Chubby Henparty posted:

It was splitting into multiple copies ala Doll House or Altered Carbon that really got me on the whole consciousness bit. I always did appreciate that in the latter, the guy sent his copy off to orgy land while he took on the suicide mission.

... So far as he knew.

In the book House of Suns they take this to the extreme. There are characters who clone themselves into a thousand copies of themselves (not knowing which is original) and set off to explore and experience the galaxy (there's no FTL in this setting, they sleep through travel or experience it relativisticaly slow), meeting at reunions every hundred thousand years or so to all exchange memories and synchronise their experience.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Apr 7, 2021

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

Powered Descent posted:

Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain?

That Gorn has a name

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008



Snow Cone Capone posted:

I always appreciated how The Prestige was like "well actually there is a plausible explanation for the trick but we're not using it, in favor of an elaborate plot device that is both fantastical and deeply hosed up"

Well that is the central point of the film. We are invited to consider whether Angier or Borden has sacrificed more or worked harder to be able to do their magic trick. Both versions are actually deeply hosed up and require enormous effort to pull off.


e: identical twins exist and are proof of what happens when one person becomes two. You just diverge lives from that point.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Retrowave Joe posted:

The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions.





But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there.

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


If it makes anyone feel better, there are very few cells that aren't replaced regularly in the human body, so there's very little of the original "you" left for a transporter to kill anyways.

MikeJF posted:

In the book House of Suns they take this to the extreme. There are characters who clone themselves into a thousand copies of themselves (not knowing which is original) and set off to explore and experience the galaxy (there's no FTL in this setting, they sleep through travel or experience it relativisticaly slow), meeting at reunions every hundred thousand years or so to all exchange memories and synchronise their experience.
I've read short stories with similar concepts where the consciousnesses sometimes decided not to synchronise because their subjective experiences make them different people, but that was based on computer storage where it's absolutely possible to clone "infinitely" and operate at vastly different timescales.

Retrowave Joe
Jul 20, 2001
Be heroes.

Powered Descent posted:

Did she legally change her first name from Kathryn to Captain?

Yeah, all the Captains are named that way.

thrawn527 posted:

But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there.

That’s true. I haven’t looked at anything else in the Arcade, but it was Star Trek so I gave it a whirl.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Retrowave Joe posted:

Yeah, all the Captains are named that way.


That’s true. I haven’t looked at anything else in the Arcade, but it was Star Trek so I gave it a whirl.

Okay, I just meant in response to you saying that there are no "microtransactions". Sure, but there is, you know, a monthly regular transaction if you're not already subscribing to Apple Arcade.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Arquinsiel posted:

If it makes anyone feel better, there are very few cells that aren't replaced regularly in the human body, so there's very little of the original "you" left for a transporter to kill anyways.
I've read short stories with similar concepts where the consciousnesses sometimes decided not to synchronise because their subjective experiences make them different people, but that was based on computer storage where it's absolutely possible to clone "infinitely" and operate at vastly different timescales.

The ship is theseus problem for the continuity of self is a related, but different one from the transporter problem. Theseus at least has continuous uninterpreted operation of the ship. A transporter does not.



MariusLecter posted:

If i put you through a blender that blended you as fine a puree that is physically possible, had that puree run through a high pressure pipeline to another location where another machine reconstructed the puree back into yourself, would that be more or less preferable to a Trek transporter? Or The Prestige transporter even?

This is probably the must succinct way to put the transporter issue to those who aren't convinced why it might be an actual problem. It's far easier for people to convince themselves that there's no break in identity when it's space magic doing the thing. But when you put it down into terms an everyday person can understand in their daily life it becomes more plausible.

Delsaber
Oct 1, 2013

This may or may not be correct.



thrawn527 posted:

But it's only part of Apple Arcade, right? Which is $4.99 per month? I haven't seen anything else worth trying in there.

A lot of Apple Arcade exclusives have started trickling out onto other platforms recently, chances are this one will end up on Android devices eventually, or even on Steam, like Timelines and a couple others.

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


Nitrousoxide posted:

The ship is theseus problem for the continuity of self is a related, but different one from the transporter problem. Theseus at least has continuous uninterpreted operation of the ship. A transporter does not.


This is probably the must succinct way to put the transporter issue to those who aren't convinced why it might be an actual problem. It's far easier for people to convince themselves that there's no break in identity when it's space magic doing the thing. But when you put it down into terms an everyday person can understand in their daily life it becomes more plausible.
The blender method is the same as the ship of Theseus, because the full version of it is "and you re-assemble the discarded parts into the ship-form so which is the real ship?".

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004




Ultra Carp

The ship of theseus may be exactly how transporters work but we can't know that because they work "very well, thank you" and aren't actually real.

That and because hundreds of different writers have been inconsistent with even those properties we do see

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Retrowave Joe posted:

The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions.





Yeah, I'm enjoying it a lot. Not constantly being hassled to buy the in-game currency to progress goes a long way.

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Gelf
Oct 1, 2005

Wake up and smell the psychosis!\



In the Disco S4 trailer I think it is Mr. Rhys who dies during their first encounter with the anomaly. I know the bridge set is loving huge and he could be standing off to the right, but you can see Bryce but no Rhys

I know this is speculation, but it's from a trailer and I'm reasonably confident.

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